1. #1

    Why are these forums so toxic?

    I am posting this here as I guess I posted it in the wrong forum before and it was closed. So, here goes...

    Out of every single forum I have frequented on the internet, mmo-champion has been the most toxic and abusive forum I've ever read through. I'd love to have a place where I can talk about WoW without being blasted with extreme homophobia and transphobia. Earlier today I saw someone use incredibly harsh and foul language talking about gay people as if they were subhuman in multiple posts, and it resulted in an infraction.

    Anywhere else, this would have resulted in an immediate and permanent ban. What's going on here? Why is so much hatred and vitriol allowed on these forums? Is it a conscious decision by the moderators? Do you realize how extreme it has gotten compared to other forums throughout the internet?

    When I posted this I got some PM's telling me that people felt the exact same way after the thread was closed, so I know I'm not alone in feeling this way. I just want to know why forums about my favorite video game have devolved to such a low point.

    Edit: It's just not just about sexuality either. The way people talk to each other about small things; ie, disagreeing about what allied race might come to the game next is *insane*. Don't agree that vulpera should be added to the game? People on these forums will literally tell you to kill yourself. It's crazy.

  2. #2
    The Lightbringer Sykol's Avatar
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    You can always just choose not to acknowledge someone you disagree with. I understand that's a hard thing for some people to do though, especially those who love using words of the day like toxic and anything-phobia.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Sykol View Post
    You can always just choose not to acknowledge someone you disagree with. I understand that's a hard thing for some people to do though, especially those who love using words of the day like toxic and anything-phobia.
    "anything-phobia". I mean, you realize how ridiculous you're being right? As a gay man, when someone calls me a "disgusting faggot" (words I've seen literally on these forums), would you not consider that homophobia? You're brushing this off awfully easily. Something tells me if someone insulted something so personal to you, you wouldn't shrug it off so easily.

  4. #4
    The Lightbringer Sykol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armakus View Post
    "anything-phobia". I mean, you realize how ridiculous you're being right? As a gay man, when someone calls me a "disgusting faggot" (words I've seen literally on these forums), would you not consider that homophobia? You're brushing this off awfully easily. Something tells me if someone insulted something so personal to you, you wouldn't shrug it off so easily.
    Why do you care? What does their opinion mean to you? And honestly, why is your sexuality so important and personal to you? If you're comfortable in yourself and who you are, words on a screen from some internet rando shouldn't bother you in the slightest.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Sykol View Post
    Why do you care? What does their opinion mean to you? And honestly, why is your sexuality so important and personal to you? If you're comfortable in yourself and who you are, words on a screen from some internet rando shouldn't bother you in the slightest.
    Because I've lost a job before just for being gay. Because people have stopped talking to me for being gay.

    Being gay literally means nothing to me, but it's evident that it means so, so much to everyone else. It's ridiculous that people keep saying stuff like "why is being gay so important?" but everything in my life has shown me that everyone cares about it more than most other things. Being gay isn't important, but it *is* important that people aren't put in a harmful position *because* they're gay. And that's why I'm saying the mods should be much more harsh on "anything-phobias", as you so nonchalantly put it.

  6. #6
    The Lightbringer Sykol's Avatar
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    You're not put in a harmful position by someone insulting you over the internet.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Sykol View Post
    You're not put in a harmful position by someone insulting you over the internet.
    *sigh* no, I'm not. But people congregating and seeing homophobia as a normalized thing leads to more situations where people are put in harms way in real life.

    Edit: Also, as I'm sure you'd be aware, it absolutely *would* have an effect on someone's mental state. It's stupid to say someone "shouldn't be affected" - of course that would affect someone mentally.

  8. #8
    Mainly because the crowd Mmochamp draws is pretty toxic itself. I don't know the exact reason why myself, but it just is. The WoW community as a whole is known for its rampant toxicity, but this place is probably the worst of the worst. Even the official forums aren't this bad.

    For more civilized conversation, you're better off going somewhere like said forums, or the WoW subreddit. This is just a place where people like to try and vindicate themselves and their opinions by talking down to others who they don't immediately agree with on the most mundane topics regarding an utterly fictional universe


  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Armakus View Post
    I am posting this here as I guess I posted it in the wrong forum before and it was closed. So, here goes...

    Out of every single forum I have frequented on the internet, mmo-champion has been the most toxic and abusive forum I've ever read through. I'd love to have a place where I can talk about WoW without being blasted with extreme homophobia and transphobia. Earlier today I saw someone use incredibly harsh and foul language talking about gay people as if they were subhuman in multiple posts, and it resulted in an infraction.

    Anywhere else, this would have resulted in an immediate and permanent ban. What's going on here? Why is so much hatred and vitriol allowed on these forums? Is it a conscious decision by the moderators? Do you realize how extreme it has gotten compared to other forums throughout the internet?

    When I posted this I got some PM's telling me that people felt the exact same way after the thread was closed, so I know I'm not alone in feeling this way. I just want to know why forums about my favorite video game have devolved to such a low point.

    Edit: It's just not just about sexuality either. The way people talk to each other about small things; ie, disagreeing about what allied race might come to the game next is *insane*. Don't agree that vulpera should be added to the game? People on these forums will literally tell you to kill yourself. It's crazy.
    One of the main draws of MMO-C is that the moderation is not as strict and as repressive as other forums. This is good in that it allows people to be more expressive and free with discussing difficult or heavy ideas that might otherwise be immediately shut down in other places. The discussion of difficult topics is often uncomfortable, but in my opinion, also potentially very rewarding.

    This, as you've experienced, has the downside of letting more trolls and stupid people voice and vent their toxicity. In some cases, despite being here for several years now, I do wonder about this policy. I like being able to take on heavy concepts and arguments, but I see a LOT of repeat offenders going undisciplined. But to be fair, I've also seen some of the worst posters perma-banned, and gotten some extremely valuable and intellectual discussions out of the deal as well.

    If you want something more light, then just don't read those threads. See MMO-C for what it is, and go in fully informed. Don't feed the trolls, and maybe toughen up a bit.
    Sylvanas has left the Guild.

  10. #10
    Elemental Lord Mirishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armakus View Post
    I am posting this here as I guess I posted it in the wrong forum before and it was closed. So, here goes...

    Out of every single forum I have frequented on the internet, mmo-champion has been the most toxic and abusive forum I've ever read through. I'd love to have a place where I can talk about WoW without being blasted with extreme homophobia and transphobia. Earlier today I saw someone use incredibly harsh and foul language talking about gay people as if they were subhuman in multiple posts, and it resulted in an infraction.

    Anywhere else, this would have resulted in an immediate and permanent ban. What's going on here? Why is so much hatred and vitriol allowed on these forums? Is it a conscious decision by the moderators? Do you realize how extreme it has gotten compared to other forums throughout the internet?

    When I posted this I got some PM's telling me that people felt the exact same way after the thread was closed, so I know I'm not alone in feeling this way. I just want to know why forums about my favorite video game have devolved to such a low point.

    Edit: It's just not just about sexuality either. The way people talk to each other about small things; ie, disagreeing about what allied race might come to the game next is *insane*. Don't agree that vulpera should be added to the game? People on these forums will literally tell you to kill yourself. It's crazy.
    Some advice: don't discuss moderation, to any degree. That will almost certainly get your topic locked and can get you infracted.

    The reality is that there are just a lot of really shitty, selfish people in this world, and the anonymity of the internet gives them a platform to lash out at those who disagree with them, want the things they do not want, like the things they do not like. Enjoy a game they don't? You're a shill, a fanboy, a sheep, etc. Want something in a game (usually WoW) that they don't? People like you are the reason <insert game> is shit now.

    And while they do often get infracted or banned, it isn't long before they're either back (VPNs and burner accounts) or someone else has stepped up to fill the 'resident douchebag' shoes. I used to moderate a modding forum for Bethesda games and I had zero tolerance for trolls/racists/homophobic stuff, but it was a never-ending thing. A day didn't go by where I didn't see something awful.
    The amount of people who are supposedly over WoW/hate WoW, yet continue to spend every day of their lives whining about it here on the forums, never fails to astound me.

    Obsession is bad, kids!

  11. #11
    The Lightbringer Sykol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armakus View Post
    *sigh* no, I'm not. But people congregating and seeing homophobia as a normalized thing leads to more situations where people are put in harms way in real life.
    You never do any good by censoring/banning people, because it just drives them to places you can't see and reaffirms their beliefs. Besides, it's 2019. We don't really have roving gangs of gay-bashers anymore. You're probably more likely to be attacked over your political beliefs in North America.

  12. #12
    The Lightbringer
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    In short: we tend to identify with our hobbies. Therefor any critique is often considered a personal attack and this causes any disagreement to quickly descend into obscenities. It's a common lack of self-awareness and an unwillingness to correct ones mistakes - or even spot them, along with the behavior, as being a waste of energy and unproductive in the first place.
    A lot likes to hide behind their anonymity and post whatever reactions they have regardless of the meaning of the words they use. They just want attention and don't care how they come about it or where it takes them.
    Last edited by Tiwack; 2019-10-13 at 06:11 AM.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  13. #13
    Elemental Lord Mirishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    One of the main draws of MMO-C is that the moderation is not as strict and as repressive as other forums. This is good in that it allows people to be more expressive and free with discussing difficult or heavy ideas that might otherwise be immediately shut down in other places. The discussion of difficult topics is often uncomfortable, but in my opinion, also potentially very rewarding.

    This, as you've experienced, has the downside of letting more trolls and stupid people voice and vent their toxicity. In some cases, despite being here for several years now, I do wonder about this policy. I like being able to take on heavy concepts and arguments, but I see a LOT of repeat offenders going undisciplined. But to be fair, I've also seen some of the worst posters perma-banned, and gotten some extremely valuable and intellectual discussions out of the deal as well.

    If you want something more light, then just don't read those threads. See MMO-C for what it is, and go in fully informed. Don't feed the trolls, and maybe toughen up a bit.
    I've never been a fan of the 'toughen up/grow thicker skin' response to stuff like this. Telling people to shut up and become numb to a problem doesn't actually solve the problem.
    The amount of people who are supposedly over WoW/hate WoW, yet continue to spend every day of their lives whining about it here on the forums, never fails to astound me.

    Obsession is bad, kids!

  14. #14
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Several points:

    Ban lengths are not visible to anyone other than the mod team and the person affected, so conclusions about the nature of other people's bans is going to be almost always guesswork because uninvolved parties do not know the full details of the situation.

    Hateful behaviour is handled much more harshly than garden variety forum misbehaviour, ranging from higher value infractions (and longer bans) to outright account closure. We are not okay with that here.

    Our system is generally set up in a way that gives people second chances to change their behaviour and improve, but will result in permanent bans if they do not do so. However, the people who are here only to spread hate will find themselves fast-tracked to removal from the site.

    We can't stop people from being awful, all we can do is address it within the site rules and policies when they are and we catch it. This is the internet, and shitty people come with the territory.

    Please report posts you find in violation. Please do not discuss moderation publicly. If you have concerns or questions over specific things, please send a private message to a global moderator. [note: probably not me in this instance; I'm leaving in a couple days for a holiday]

    for moderation questions/concerns, please contact a global:

    TzivaRadux SimcaElysiaZaelsinoxskarmaArleeVenara

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