Why do people say the Alliance 'lost' or were 'passive' in the Fourth War?

[Jalham]

- Because the supposed High King never made an appearance without being sad about the poor misguided Horde and shitting on his own side.

- Because when the Zandalari felt sad, we didn't press an advantage and end the idiot faction war. Oh man, that gets the blood pumping!

- Because some of the Horde actually had empathy and remorse for atrocities, all is forgiven. Again. No better way to signal "you don't matter" than to pretend none of those losses happened.

These aren't actual losses tho... He means lands and fights, not morals.

[Mehrunes]

Because a certain subset of the Alliance playebase is convinced that Blizzard is out to get them and has been for over a decade. To the point that they'd continue their doomsaying about the HORDE BIAS demon even if every Horde race was wiped out.

[GreenJesus]

In Dazar'alor the Alliance kills mostly Zandalari guards. The army of both the trolls and the Horde were in the north after being lured by the Alliance.

The Alliance, as stated by Nathanos, was winning on all fronts not thanks to numbers (as we can clearly see from the Anduin cinematic) but thanks to the advantage of having achieved sea domination thanks to the kul'tirans ships and the decimation of the Zandalari's fleet. As soon as that advantage disappeared (after the introduction of Nazjatar), Sylvanas was the one with the stronger army, as stated in the last patch from numerous npcs.

About the thread, IMO the problem isn't with the Alliance in general but with Anduin beign too passive. He was almost never the one to push the Alliance in action (role covered instead by Tyrande, Genn, Jaina and the npcs from the war campaing) so all the stuff that the Alliance npcs did during BfA came out as if they were following their own agendas instead the orders of their High King.

Put this in parallel with the Horde war campaign where Sylvanas or her right hand Nathanos were always doing stuff and, even if this campaign ended up achieving almost nothing, it seems that the Horde was always more proactive thanks to his leader beign almost always on the frontline or involved in some way.

Lol.. the alliance sent their entire fleet after like 2 ships. OMEGALUL

[Powerogue]

"3. The Alliance then rallies and raids Lordaeron in an equal fight, sacking the place and will likely soon reclaim it for the alliance (Clear Alliance victory)"

Not so much the alliance winning as the horde losing.

"9. The Nazjatar intro. Its literally the horde fleeing for their lives. Is this passive? Is this losing?"

Like the last time it was a trap that worked and decimated their fleets down to about even. Points: -50 for alliance, -10 for the horde, and +9999 for the old gods TBH.

Honestly the biggest win was winning over Saurfang. Anduin took a huge risk there that paid off for him immensely. People write off him as young and inexperienced, and he may still be, but I say he's proven himself as king. Not even Varian could have ever dreamed being openly allowed into the streets of Orgrimmar.

[eurojust]

The Alliance lost one of their OG race (genocided according to the lore, and the survivors now leave in Stormwind) and the rest of Kalimdor.
I know you guys are obsessed over losing some generic NPC here and there, but in terms of military/political win, it's clear that the Horde obliterated the Alliance.
Not to mention that the Night Elves vs Orcs in Kalimdor was one (if not THE) main reason why factions existed since vanilla.

[Skirdus]

Probably stated in this thread already, but Lordaeron is not a clear-cut Alliance victory. The Alliance stormed the city with two goals in mind: reclaiming the city for the Alliance, and apprehending Sylvanas; neither of which have been accomplished, even now that the war is supposedly over. Contrast that with its Horde equivalent in the form of Teldrassil, in which the Horde unabashedly slaughtered the night elf populace, severely wounded one of the Alliance's leaders, and completely eradicated an entire capital city, all with minimal losses on their part.

Dialogue between Stormwind citizens post-8.2.5 also seems to suggest that Lordaeron will no longer be inhabitable due to the blight, meaning that like Teldrassil, it isn't about to be refurnished any time soon

[Florena]

Because their goal was to remove one person from the very beginning while forgiving everyone else. Because they never pushed their advantage when they had the opportunity, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Because in our last snapshot of the conflict in 8.2.5 they were set to lose if not for having to ask Saurfang, who was the second biggest Horde aggressor against them in the first place, for help. Because the lands the Horde took are in limbo, so until further notice they conceded yet more (night elf) territory to the Horde. Because the Alliance leader spends more time chastising the leader of the victims of genocide than the one who helped perpetrate it.

Where is it said they ceded more night elf land tot he horde?

[CTiranno]

Lol.. the alliance sent their entire fleet after like 2 ships. OMEGALUL

In their defense (even if i still think that was a stupid move) the Alliance and Genn probably thought that Sylvanas was on the admiral ship so they sent most (if not all) of their fleet to be sure to capture her.

And this is another example of the matter that I was talking about. It's Genn, not Anduin, trying to do something to end the war. Instead of making Anduin a proactive character, they keep holding him on his throne only to have him appeared to say stuff about not pressing the attack on the enemy because their king is dead.

For stuff like this he comes out not only as a passive character but as a stupid ruler since, even knowing his army depleted numbers, he's allowing the war to continue more than necessary

[Super Dickmann]

Where is it said they ceded more night elf land tot he horde?

In the absence of new lore, old lore remains. The most recent status we got is that Ashenvale was held by the Horde and Darkshore being contested, but leaning towards the Alliance. They could adjust this later, but at present there's no reason to think they got htose lands back, especially since Tyrande left for Nordrassil.

[Feanoro]

Because their goal was to remove one person from the very beginning while forgiving everyone else. Because they never pushed their advantage when they had the opportunity, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Because in our last snapshot of the conflict in 8.2.5 they were set to lose if not for having to ask Saurfang, who was the second biggest Horde aggressor against them in the first place, for help. Because the lands the Horde took are in limbo, so until further notice they conceded yet more (night elf) territory to the Horde. Because the Alliance leader spends more time chastising the leader of the victims of genocide than the one who helped perpetrate it.

They're going to take away your Horde membership card if you don't blame everything on Alliance players being conspiracy theorists, you know.

[Mehrunes]

They're going to take away your Horde membership card if you don't blame everything on Alliance players being conspiracy theorists, you know.

Given how @Super Dickmann didn't blame anything they described on Blizzard hating the Alliance and plotting how to make them the most miserable, they're safe. It's almost as if you deliberately didn't get which part of your conspiracy theory makes it a conspiracy theory.

[Feanoro]

Given how @Super Dickmann didn't blame anything they described on Blizzard hating the Alliance and plotting how to make them the most miserable, they're safe. It's almost as if you deliberately didn't get which part of your conspiracy theory makes it a conspiracy theory.

It's almost as if you completely missed the joke.

[mickybrighteyes]

Bottom line, the War ends with the Horde facing no back lash for their actions as Sylvanas gets blamed for everything, Saurfang dies a "hero" and the Horde soldiers can chill without worries as they start building new homes in Ashenvale, Lordaeron is a decimated ruin that can be recovered by the Forsaken at anytime and they still control Gilneas anyway. Lost one irrelevant vampy boi.

I thought the horde lost control of gilneas in cataclysm and alliance forces forced them mostly out of the region... but they never bothered updating the zones with the story being told.

[Darknessvamp]

I thought the horde lost control of gilneas in cataclysm and alliance forces forced them mostly out of the region... but they never bothered updating the zones with the story being told.

I've not read it but apparently Before the Storm makes the case that the Forsaken still have control of Gilneas. From wowpedia:

Before the Storm

By the time of the end of the Argus Campaign, the kingdom was referred to as fallen, with nothing but "wind, sorrow and ruin" in the land. When Genn arrived at Stromgarde Keep before the events of the Gathering, he told Anduin that both kingdoms were now in ruins, with Gilneas being home to the Forsaken and Stromgarde being overrun with criminals, ogres, and trolls.

So unless it's another case of the novels messing up stuff again, Forsaken have control of Gilneas still. Though the Black Dragons did take over Gilneas at one point so when the Rogue player takes care of them perhaps it was just assumed the Forsaken retook the kingdom afterwards.

[allawyn]

It is a desirable meme as a part of a demand that Blizzard favor Alliance players over Horde players. At its most extreme, this ends up being a demand that the Blizzard favor Alliance players over Horde players, to the point of force Horde players (except you can't, they just unsubscribe) to go through having their faction be completely destroyed by a noble and completely victorious Alliance.

- - - Updated - - -

Probably stated in this thread already, but Lordaeron is not a clear-cut Alliance victory. The Alliance stormed the city with two goals in mind: reclaiming the city for the Alliance, and apprehending Sylvanas; neither of which have been accomplished, even now that the war is supposedly over. Contrast that with its Horde equivalent in the form of Teldrassil, in which the Horde unabashedly slaughtered the night elf populace, severely wounded one of the Alliance's leaders, and completely eradicated an entire capital city, all with minimal losses on their part.

Dialogue between Stormwind citizens post-8.2.5 also seems to suggest that Lordaeron will no longer be inhabitable due to the blight, meaning that like Teldrassil, it isn't about to be refurnished any time soon

I would call it "clear cut" in that the Alliance came out ahead (claims that destroying a Horde capital is not a victory not withstanding). It would be fait to call it "qualified", since the Alliance didn't achieve every possible objective.

The War of Thorns as a shole is also a qualified victory in that Sylvanas didn't get Tryande or Malfurion. OTOH, since whether something is a victory depends on gettting what you want (whether or not what you want is to commit a pointless massacre so you can become the next villian) the burning of Teldrassil itself is a complete victory.

[Unholyground]

Don't cry Alliance players, Unity Mode for cross faction PvE is coming and you can group with your Horde brothers and sisters, or keep War Mode on and drink that revenge punch up.

[Timester]

Alliance lost? They just installed a puppet leadership for the entire Horde (including the Forsaken) and got a meat shield army to fight N'zoth.

Just like the Allies empowered the West Germany and Japan after Second World War.

[Eggroll]

Ways Alliance won:

1. - Sacked Lordaeron and are about to retake it with Calia

2. - Reunited Kul'Tiras and have two Super Saiyans on our side (Jaina and Tyrande)


3. As for Teldrassil, we got our revenge. We sacked Lordaeron and they had no choice but to plague bomb it, but we're about to retake it.

1. Alliance never sacked Lordaeron. Sylvanas expected to lose it. She evacuated and booby trapped the place in advance and left the Alliance a pile of rubble. The "human potential" getting cuddly with those who are in support of Sylvanas doesn't really help either

2. Ask the slaughtered citizens of Brennandan if they feel particularly victorious today.. Oh, ups, they are dead, men, women, children, healers wiped out by the Horde.
Also: "We" don't have Tyrande. The "human potential" decided to abandon their ancient allies in their hour of need. Fuck the human potiential.

3. You are not speaking for the nelves. Probably a "human potential" dude. There was no retribution for Teldrassil. Retribution for Teldrassil would be wiping out Orgrimmar, cleaning nelf lands from all Horde filth and mass executions.

4. Oh yeah, and since nelves are the 2nd most popular Alliance race by a VERY large margin, we also need a new capital of course. A glorious one, built on the ruins of Orgrimmar by orc slaves


#Team Tyrande
#NeverForgetTeldrassil
#DeathToTheTraitorKing

[KaPe]

Alliance lost? They just installed a puppet leadership for the entire Horde (including the Forsaken) and got a meat shield army to fight N'zoth.

Just like the Allies empowered the West Germany and Japan after Second World War.

They didn't install shit, Horde decided on their own that they don't want a third time where some crazy warmonger leads to a worldwide war. About damn time.

Not only that, but Anduin praised the enemy general, the one that lead Horde armies across Darkshore and allowed Sylvanas to burn Teldrassil, as a hero. This manages to accomplish two important goals - spit in the face of Night Elves and show that it was, once again, Horde who did all the important work in this war. The Alliance was kinda there - supposedly winning after Dazar'Alor, but then losing all their advantages off-screen and just barely having enough troops to help Saurfang.

Even further, the Alliance didn't win. Sylvanas completely destroyed Saurfang in Mak'gora, and only "defeated" herself by abandoning the Horde that was still largely loyal to her. This isn't a victory, it's enemy running away from a dominant position, for no reason.

The Alliance got one decisive victory in this expansion - sinking the Zandalari fleet, gaining the naval advantage... for couple weeks, until Azshara appearently sunk everything. Couldn't even keep that one, huh.

Edit: The one Alliance character that took active role in this war has nearly completely failed. Tyrande was empowered by her goddess and only managed to kill few common Horde soldiers - even sparing their commander. Then she failed to kill Nathanos and he easily accomplished his mission, successfully raising new Dark Rangers. So yeah, even when "losing", the Horde succeeds in their goals. Just like at the Undercity.

[Newname1234567890]

I feel its safe to save the Horde came out rather good from the war overall.

Atm our allied races are more powerful (certainly econonically) three full kingdoms and only one group of exiles. To the allainces 2 kingoms, one group of exiles and (all be it formidable ) wandering band of soilders (Is it confirmed all the Army of Light joined the allaince? Since like the light dreadlord is missing). That said based on the next group of allied races this will become more balanced.

Territory wise the Horde have gained a strongfoot hold on two continents in the Broken Isle and Zandarar while the Alliance got Kul Tiras.

So even if the Horde is currently army wise weaker (Which may not to be true seeing how they beat Slyvannas without much of a fight and annexed most of her forces). i think overall they have a larger territory to exploit and more trade to fund rebulding efforts so will recover faster.

I completely see why Allaince players may feel like nothing really came from thier second time with an army at the gates of Orgrimmar.