Why do people say the Alliance 'lost' or were 'passive' in the Fourth War?

[Gaidax]

I think it's just that Alliance has little to show for the said war. In my opinion, when the dust settled - Alliance did sort of won, after all the war ended with Horde capital siege and Horde leadership changed leaving them to deal with disgraced and fractured Horde.

But that's about it. Alliance did not seem to get any territory or meaningful concessions for all that. It is possible that we do not see this yet and maybe in 9.0 there will be more information on actual long term outcome of the war, but for now it feels a bit hollow for the Alliance.

[Shiza]

I think it's just that Alliance has little to show for the said war. In my opinion, when the dust settled - Alliance did sort of won, after all the war ended with Horde capital siege and Horde leadership changed leaving them to deal with disgraced and fractured Horde.

But that's about it. Alliance did not seem to get any territory or meaningful concessions for all that. It is possible that we do not see this yet and maybe in 9.0 there will be more information on actual long term outcome of the war, but for now it feels a bit hollow for the Alliance.

The Horde won. They gained territory, brought an entire alliance race to the brink of extinction, burned Stormwind, destroyed both the Alliance and Kul Tiras Fleed, recruited most of the slain night elves into their ranks and got rid of an insane dictator who wanted to kill them all just as she outlived her usefulness for the Horde.

[VladlTutushkin]

Because their goal was to remove one person from the very beginning while forgiving everyone else. Because they never pushed their advantage when they had the opportunity, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Because in our last snapshot of the conflict in 8.2.5 they were set to lose if not for having to ask Saurfang, who was the second biggest Horde aggressor against them in the first place, for help. Because the lands the Horde took are in limbo, so until further notice they conceded yet more (night elf) territory to the Horde. Because the Alliance leader spends more time chastising the leader of the victims of genocide than the one who helped perpetrate it.

The fact that Anduin has a gall to chastise Tyrande while he did NOTHING to help night elfs, he didnt even used his famed “negotiations talent” to talk Thrall or Baine or Lor’Themar into giving back their lands... and meanwhile he cheers up Saurfang is beyond disgusting. The fact that genocide victims portrayed as “throwing a temper tantrum” is insane.

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Because a certain subset of the Alliance playebase is convinced that Blizzard is out to get them and has been for over a decade. To the point that they'd continue their doomsaying about the HORDE BIAS demon even if every Horde race was wiped out.

Blizz might not be targeting Alliance on purpose (which they do on Blizzcons btw) but they simply neglect the faction so much that it suffers like from abuse. Best parallel will be a drunkard and his pets/children. He dosent want them dead or hurt but he is way too drunk to realize what he is doing or to care about what harm comes their way.

[Dagoth Ur]

The fact that Anduin has a gall to chastise Tyrande while he did NOTHING to help night elfs, he didnt even used his famed “negotiations talent” to talk Thrall or Baine or Lor’Themar into giving back their lands... and meanwhile he cheers up Saurfang is beyond disgusting. The fact that genocide victims portrayed as “throwing a temper tantrum” is insane.

There's no feeling like getting frowning looks and hushes from your closest allies while your king prepares to hold speech on your peoples murderers' funeral.

Hah man, I bet we'll appreciate this gem of a story for years to come.

[VladlTutushkin]

There's no feeling like getting frowning looks and hushes from your closest allies while your king prepares to hold speech on your peoples murderers' funeral.

Hah man, I bet we'll appreciate this gem of a story for years to come.

“We got literally nearly wiped out!”
“Oh Tyrande , let bygones be bygones?”
“My people are HOMELESS!”
“You can live in Stormwind Alie... i mean Night Elven District we will build.”
“Horde still holds our land! If you declare peace now we will lose them forever under a White Peace clause!”
“We all should sacrifice for peace...”
“YOU LITERALLY SACRIFICED NOTHING! Or rather you DID but you sacrificed our land, not yours!”
“Tyrande, dont be consumed by vengeance.”
“Consumed by vengeance my ass you blonde mop!”

[Dagoth Ur]

“We got literally nearly wiped out!”
“Oh Tyrande , let bygones be bygones?”
“My people are HOMELESS!”
“You can live in Stormwind Alie... i mean Night Elven District we will build.”
“Horde still holds our land! If you declare peace now we will lose them forever under a White Peace clause!”
“We all should sacrifice for peace...”
“YOU LITERALLY SACRIFICED NOTHING! Or rather you DID but you sacrificed our land, not yours!”
“Tyrande, dont be consumed by vengeance.”
“Consumed by vengeance my ass you blonde mop!”

I think poetic end to Tyrande's arc would be that the rest of the Alliance leaders convince her she's literally crazy for opposing the Unifaction, strap her in the jacket and lock her up in Stormwind's asylum.

That's pretty much what's happening anyway.

[VladlTutushkin]

I think poetic end to Tyrande's arc would be that the rest of the Alliance leaders convince her she's literally crazy for opposing the Unifaction, strap her in the jacket and lock her up in Stormwind's asylum.

That's pretty much what's happening anyway.

She is the only sane person left. IF Horde returned Ashenvale and Darkshore immediately as a peace gesture and show that “we break the cycle” and then sent Hamuul Runetotem and Baine to discuss what can be done to help night elfs resettle (because i think only those two will not be moonfired to death on sight) and then sworn to never even enter Ashenvale uninvited then Turande MIGHT have being unreasonable.
Currently Horde didnt even said “sorry” for real. And she supposed to forgive?

[Dagoth Ur]

She is the only sane person left. IF Horde returned Ashenvale and Darkshore immediately as a peace gesture and show that “we break the cycle” and then sent Hamuul Runetotem and Baine to discuss what can be done to help night elfs resettle (because i think only those two will not be moonfired to death on sight) and then sworn to never even enter Ashenvale uninvited then Turande MIGHT have being unreasonable.
Currently Horde didnt even said “sorry” for real. And she supposed to forgive?

I mean yeah, first thing Our Treasure should've said when singing up that charade of an armistice is that nelves get their lands back. Maybe they'll throw in a tweet where they say that's exactly how it happened though.

What I think will happen is they'll write Tyrande in a way that she'll focus her anger solely on Sylvanas and Nathanos so the rest of the Horde can sneak by guilt free.

[VladlTutushkin]

I mean yeah, first thing Our Treasure should've said when singing up that charade of an armistice is that nelves get their lands back. Maybe they'll throw in a tweet where they say that's exactly how it happened though.

What I think will happen is they'll write Tyrande in a way that she'll focus her anger solely on Sylvanas and Nathanos so the rest of the Horde can sneak by guilt free.

Or worse - “do a Daelin” and make her “go insane” and then get killed. Also how they prop up “good leader” Shandris who sucks up to humans and even goes against her mother because (oh gosh!) she was MEAN to Anduin! Horror. Basically they want to completely screw up night elfs in this expansion while they can.

[Firedemon]

Some people really only know the alliance side or something.
And also choosing to ignore that the Battle for Lordaeron was a ruse to trap in the Alliance leaders and kill everyone, but luckily Vajanina suddenly shows up and teleports everyone. Bombing the place and kill everyone was the goal all along.

[VladlTutushkin]

Some people really only know the alliance side or something.
And also choosing to ignore that the Battle for Lordaeron was a ruse to trap in the Alliance leaders and kill everyone, but luckily Vajanina suddenly shows up and teleports everyone. Bombing the place and kill everyone was the goal all along.

Alliance still lost an army there and leaders only survived because they cant be killed so early into the expansion.

[Super Dickmann]

Or worse - “do a Daelin” and make her “go insane” and then get killed. Also how they prop up “good leader” Shandris who sucks up to humans and even goes against her mother because (oh gosh!) she was MEAN to Anduin! Horror. Basically they want to completely screw up night elfs in this expansion while they can.

The Shandris thing is the most obnoxious thing since the undead night elves. Tyrande is her mother of 10k years, she's known Anduin for 3 or 4 at absolute tops and he's nobody to her. The people who burned in that tree are her people too, so are the ones who the Horde offed in their invasion, an invasion orchestrated in part by Saurfang. Yet she's prioritizing him over Tyrande and her own race. We all know there's only two ways out from here - Tyrande is turned into a patch villain for opposing the Unifaction and dies, or she decides only Nathanos and Sylvanas did anything wrong and forgives everyone else, like Jaina after her spirit quest.

[Firedemon]

Alliance still lost an army there and leaders only survived because they cant be killed so early into the expansion.

That's what I'm saying. Alliance people see undercity as a victory when it actually followed sylvanas' plan.

[Dagoth Ur]

The Shandris thing is the most obnoxious thing since the undead night elves. Tyrande is her mother of 10k years, she's known Anduin for 3 or 4 at absolute tops and he's nobody to her. The people who burned in that tree are her people too, so are the ones who the Horde offed in their invasion, an invasion orchestrated in part by Saurfang. Yet she's prioritizing him over Tyrande and her own race. We all know there's only two ways out from here - Tyrande is turned into a patch villain for opposing the Unifaction and dies, or she decides only Nathanos and Sylvanas did anything wrong and forgives everyone else, like Jaina after her spirit quest.

I ask myself, from out of universe perspective, what's the difference between Anduin and N'zoth? One's at least open about it.

[VladlTutushkin]

I ask myself, from out of universe perspective, what's the difference between Anduin and N'zoth? One's at least open about it.

Well N’zoth wants to end all life and eat Azeorth energy while Anduin is less in scale but dooms entire race.

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The Shandris thing is the most obnoxious thing since the undead night elves. Tyrande is her mother of 10k years, she's known Anduin for 3 or 4 at absolute tops and he's nobody to her. The people who burned in that tree are her people too, so are the ones who the Horde offed in their invasion, an invasion orchestrated in part by Saurfang. Yet she's prioritizing him over Tyrande and her own race. We all know there's only two ways out from here - Tyrande is turned into a patch villain for opposing the Unifaction and dies, or she decides only Nathanos and Sylvanas did anything wrong and forgives everyone else, like Jaina after her spirit quest.

Exactly that. And Horde didnt even tried to somehow make things right (although this is impossible but sometimes attempts also count) while Alliance supposed to just forget. Especially night elfs.

[Super Dickmann]

I ask myself, from out of universe perspective, what's the difference between Anduin and N'zoth? One's at least open about it.

One is an all-consuming cancer seeking the unification of things under their ideal empire, mere contact with which turns you into a gibbering sycophant, who's failures are never pointed out and spun as being part of their plan all along, who's done untold damage to the night elves exemplified in his treatment of their ruler and has failed to in any way stop Sylvanas. The other is an Old God.

[Dagoth Ur]

Well N’zoth wants to end all life and eat Azeorth energy while Anduin is less in scale but dooms entire race.

Yeah, I was messing around but my point was just how funny it is how they're forcefully and rushingly implementing the world peace. I'm really wondering if they'll even bother with related topics in 9.0 or everything will just be peachy and we'll be lining up the big bads like on a factory track.

[VladlTutushkin]

Yeah, I was messing around but my point was just how funny it is how they're forcefully and rushingly implementing the world peace. I'm really wondering if they're even bother with related topics in 9.0.

Well they DID bother to make Tyrande look stupid and “evul” so they indeed cared enough to fuck night elfs over yet again.

[Dagoth Ur]

One is an all-consuming cancer seeking the unification of things under their ideal empire, mere contact with which turns you into a gibbering sycophant, who's failures are never pointed out and spun as being part of their plan all along, who's done untold damage to the night elves exemplified in his treatment of their ruler and has failed to in any way stop Sylvanas. The other is an Old God.

Tfw you're more subtle in your machinations than outter space eldritch horrors.

[Super Dickmann]

@VladlTutushkin

Speaking of undead night elves, Delaryn and company voluntarily decide to kill their race because of their rejection despite everyone pleading with them to come back, this happening under the moon of their goddess and an avatar of her wrath. That's not enough to overcome their trauma and so they stick with Sylvanas. But the nanosecond they hear that an undead human using the holy light they've never met offers them help, they immediately reverse course and seek redemption.