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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    It really wasn't lol. Elemental Shaman still had to rotate in other ranks of spells to not go oom, Boomkins also had to do this. The only reason these specs were brought was because of their utility buffs/debuffs, the same reason they're brought now. Classes didn't get more balanced, numerically, until Cataclysm, though in Wrath iterations were better in the mana sense.
    yes elemental and boomkin were still in a sore spot, but enhancement, retribution (horde), feral, and shadow all got better. as did warlocks and hunters, who traditionally did poorly in vanilla compared to mages, rogues, and warriors.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Ya we should add dual spec too cause I hate being locked to only 1 spec. Flight paths should be faster. Actually let's just give out flying mounts. Every class should do within 1% dmg of eachother in all situations because raids are the only thing that matters. Give druids a rez. Get rid of reagents. Get rid of hunter deadzone and the need for arrows.

    The problem with #Somechanges is that everyone has different ideas on what would be acceptable. #Somechanges is actually just #Mychanges. At least with #Nochanges people know what they're gonna get.

    The moment you start with classic+, ppl are going to have to ask for classic all over again because after ~15 years of finally getting it back, it was changed again and no longer available.
    That whole slippery slope shit is nonsense. It's easy to discern the difference between Classic + and accidentally making something that isn't classic. Class balance is one small aspect of the game, and it really isn't what made Classic amazing. You listed off a bunch of things that you think would make Classic not Classic. I agree. I think that dual spec, faster flight paths, flying mounts, raids being the only thing that matters, etc. are all things that shouldn't be in Classic + because that's not what Classic was about.

    It's not like balance changes are asking every class to be within 1% of each other for all scenarios. It could just be a little better. I'm a warrior. I'm basically god tier at tanking and dpsing. I can pop a shield on and tank for a bit if the tank dies. I'm MOSTLY useful, but even I need to move when Garr starts farting or for the Arcane Explosion boss. It's not like we're asking DPS specs to be all great, we just want them to all be VIABLE. Like... if a boomkin goes OOM after 30 seconds no matter WHAT the situation is AND THEY DONT EVEN DO THE BEST DMG EVEN WHEN THEY ARENT OOM, then they're just always useless.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    it would be nice, Spec and class balancing overall for Classic would be sweet. But you can't have any quality of life changes in Classic, due to the incoming deafness from the screeching #nochange crowd.
    what is the goal of classic? to be an authentic recreation of vanilla wow. that is it. so yeah, no changers have a point. by the way. class and spec balancing is not quality of life changes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ifeanychukwu View Post
    It would be great and is something I've been a proponent for since classic was announced. However, the #nochanges crowd will of course REEEEEEE and throw fits because hybrid classes becoming viable threatens their FOTM class choices.
    they already are viable. they aren't optimal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    I dunno, I Shaman Tank better than most warriors I have seen, old Meta doesn't mean shit because most of the data was pulled for poorly tuned pservers. when Vanilla was retail 95%+ of the wow players had no idea how to properly itemize anything.

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    This is why things should be voted on who have level 60's already. They should do a survey and they can find out what people would be ok with after Naxx has been played out.
    or you know, they can release separate servers where you can all vote on that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    Make them PvE only changes as passives (in PvE). Blizzard does this all the time now as they have the technology. We're playing a game from 2004 but on 2019 tech.

    They kept the debuff slots intentionally restricted to give the community that same feel. If a large part of the community would like some brush ups to PvE content (not at the expense of PvP) then perhaps there's a chance Blizzard will listen.

    But saying "oh if they do this it'll affect PvP" is a non-argument because they have the tech to separate PvE and PvP balancing if they decided to even balance in the first place.
    so now were fundamentally changing how the game is played even further. no thanks. you have retail for that type of garbage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    I distinctly remember a lot of talk about homogenization around the time of Wrath, and I agree that classes need to stand apart. But if you have a dps spec, it should be at least somewhat competitive in a theoretical Classic+, at least in my mind.
    we had that in bc, for the most part. that was the sweet spot between vanilla with separate tookits and wrath and the start of homogenization.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    That whole slippery slope shit is nonsense. It's easy to discern the difference between Classic + and accidentally making something that isn't classic. Class balance is one small aspect of the game, and it really isn't what made Classic amazing. You listed off a bunch of things that you think would make Classic not Classic. I agree. I think that dual spec, faster flight paths, flying mounts, raids being the only thing that matters, etc. are all things that shouldn't be in Classic + because that's not what Classic was about.

    It's not like balance changes are asking every class to be within 1% of each other for all scenarios. It could just be a little better. I'm a warrior. I'm basically god tier at tanking and dpsing. I can pop a shield on and tank for a bit if the tank dies. I'm MOSTLY useful, but even I need to move when Garr starts farting or for the Arcane Explosion boss. It's not like we're asking DPS specs to be all great, we just want them to all be VIABLE. Like... if a boomkin goes OOM after 30 seconds no matter WHAT the situation is AND THEY DONT EVEN DO THE BEST DMG EVEN WHEN THEY ARENT OOM, then they're just always useless.
    but see, there is tons of people out there who do want stuff like dual spec and faster flight paths.
    balancing if classes stay vanilla design would have to be done very carefully.
    because for example - druids dps auras are party wide, not raid wide. so buff them too much, now your raid needs 8 dps druids alone. oh. and horde needs 8 shamans for totems too. so if you're horde, 40% of your raid is strictly shaman and dps druid.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    Oh but we sure did. Now that we have it we can also have discussions about it. Pretty neat really
    Ya I guess but it seems most just want to change it back to retail anyways.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgodeus View Post
    It is very easy, and no, it is not as convoluted as you imply. Simply nerf the healing for anyone with the Shadowform talent. Example: Shadowform talent chosen = -50% healing.
    I'm highly skeptical that there wouldn't be big knockon effects from this. Presumably you mean that the 31 point talent in shadow gives you a lot more regen and a lot less healing.

    The big one I can think of is priest leveling, because most priests (even healers) use shadowform from 40-60.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallourlante View Post
    It's not supposed to be fun, we are not in 2009. It's supposed to be frustrating and keep you hooked longer.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by AceofH View Post
    yes elemental and boomkin were still in a sore spot, but enhancement, retribution (horde), feral, and shadow all got better. as did warlocks and hunters, who traditionally did poorly in vanilla compared to mages, rogues, and warriors.
    No they didn't lol. Shadow Priest was known as and only used as a "mana battery", enhancement was also only used for totems, Ret was trash too with 2 minute seals. None of these specs saw multiple raid spots within the raid, you had 2 at most and it depended entirely on how many of other classes you had.

    Also this entire post was regarding HYBRIDS no one is talking about warlocks, hunters, mages, rogues, or warriors.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    If Combat wouldn't be that drawn out, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
    A lot of hybrids aren't viable due to their lack of mana regen, you can't justify your argument with a point that essentially makes your proposal pointless.

    Either Combat is long enough for hybrids that mana becomes an issue for them, or combat isn't long enough that mana becomes an issue for them.



    Yeah, one of the things people have been doing wrong in Classic.
    The best solution to almost any fight is to finish it as fast as possible, Healer mana regen cannot sustain a prolonged combat unless they really load into consumables (Mana Flask, Demon / Dark Runes, Mana pots, etc.).
    Finishing the fight before mana becomes an issue is the best solution to any mana issue.

    I see this failed assumption on Bosses like Golemagg, where some people believe it's best to do a Dps stop once the tanks has too many stacks and can't attack anymore (=Dps might aggro if they keep dps'ing).
    In reality, it's just better to burn through the boss health full force rather than prolong the fight for another 30 seconds.
    your getting pvp and pve mixed up dont use a pvp argument to try change something in pve

    i doubt you have lead many raids in vanilla or classic if you think killing a boss faster makes it easier

    at the same time you seem to misunderstand how the very basic mechanics of Golemagg work
    Last edited by Daish; 2019-10-19 at 01:10 AM.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by AceofH View Post
    but see, there is tons of people out there who do want stuff like dual spec and faster flight paths.
    balancing if classes stay vanilla design would have to be done very carefully.
    because for example - druids dps auras are party wide, not raid wide. so buff them too much, now your raid needs 8 dps druids alone. oh. and horde needs 8 shamans for totems too. so if you're horde, 40% of your raid is strictly shaman and dps druid.

    That's fine that they want that, but it isn't in the spirit of Classic is the point. And you don't buff the party auras. They're there already but we don't need those to be any stronger. They just need to be able to play the game.

    Classes being playable in raids doesn't introduce flying and LFR into the game. You can balance classes to work in the mindset of Classic, you can't add Dual Spec or flying and have those work for Classic. They are two fundamentally different things

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Daish View Post
    your getting pvp and pve mixed up dont use a pvp argument to try change something in pve
    I never used PvP as an argument outside of "not to mention PvP ramifications", because healers suddenly having a shitload of more output most certainly does affect PvP.

    That aside, i've never suggested any "change in pve".

    Quote Originally Posted by Daish View Post
    i doubt you have lead many raids in vanilla or classic if you think killing a boss faster makes it easier
    Killing Rag before the submerge seems like a wise strategy to me, same goes for bringing Ony into P3 before any Breath.

    You skip mechanics, healers don't have to worry about their mana as much, everyone profits from it.
    By prolonging a fight, you just create room for more errors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daish View Post
    at the same time you seem to misunderstand how the very basic mechanics of Golemagg work
    No, the fight is a tank & spank fight.
    You just nuke the boss until he's dead, no dmg stop, that's it.
    Outside of keeping the dogs away from Golemagg, one doesn't have to worry about anything, trying to play around the debuff just prolongs the fight for no beneficial reason whatsoever because the healers can't simply generate mana out of thin air, they still have to keep people up.

    Also, please start using punctation marks, i have to read over your sentences multiple times in order to actually understand them.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    No they didn't lol. Shadow Priest was known as and only used as a "mana battery", enhancement was also only used for totems, Ret was trash too with 2 minute seals. None of these specs saw multiple raid spots within the raid, you had 2 at most and it depended entirely on how many of other classes you had.

    Also this entire post was regarding HYBRIDS no one is talking about warlocks, hunters, mages, rogues, or warriors.
    Ahh yes. The good old "hybrid dps need multiple raid slots per spec" if thats the case that completely bones pures all together.

    A 25 man raid would have 6 or 7 healers, 2 tanks, and 16 to 17 dps slots.

    There is in bc 8 hybrid dps specs (shadow, ret, feral, balance, elemental, enhancement, arms and fury)
    There is 12 pure dps specs.

    Thats 20 specs for 16 to 17 slots. Why would it be fair for hybrids to have more then 1 slot per spec?
    If even half of them did, thats hybrids owning 16 to 17 raid slots for 5 classes and the other 4 classes being relegated to 8 or 9.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    That's fine that they want that, but it isn't in the spirit of Classic is the point. And you don't buff the party auras. They're there already but we don't need those to be any stronger. They just need to be able to play the game.

    Classes being playable in raids doesn't introduce flying and LFR into the game. You can balance classes to work in the mindset of Classic, you can't add Dual Spec or flying and have those work for Classic. They are two fundamentally different things
    You miss what im saying. If you make hybrids TOO COMPETITIVE, they will wipe out raid slots for others. If druids do close to the same dps as a pure, all of a sudden their aura becomes much stronger as their dps makes them competitive.

    Right now its a non issue. Druids just dont do enough dps.

    If you buff them too much, the meta swings the other way and you need one druid per group because their dps + aura = more dps then another class.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacien View Post
    I think a class rebalance via Classic+ would be awesome. Shake up the meta.
    Man, you Classic fans should just admit that Vanilla wasn't as great as your nostalgic asses remember. It's objectively the worst version of WoW.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    The moment you start with classic+, ppl are going to have to ask for classic all over again because after ~15 years of finally getting it back, it was changed again and no longer available.
    There is a large difference between adding/removing things and just tuning numbers to have things balanced.

    I find most idiots that argue against class balancing are the ones that just chose the "best" dps class and are scared that they'll be outted for being trash if any other class actually competed with them on a level playing field.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AceofH View Post
    what is the goal of classic? to be an authentic recreation of vanilla wow. that is it. so yeah, no changers have a point. by the way. class and spec balancing is not quality of life changes.
    Considering it already has changes that make it not an entirely authentic recreation makes the nochange crowd inane anyway.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    There is a large difference between adding/removing things and just tuning numbers to have things balanced.

    I find most idiots that argue against class balancing are the ones that just chose the "best" dps class and are scared that they'll be outted for being trash if any other class actually competed with them on a level playing field.
    Weve seen where balance leads. Blizzard said if they were to balance classic, we would get retail balance. No thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    There is a large difference between adding/removing things and just tuning numbers to have things balanced.

    I find most idiots that argue against class balancing are the ones that just chose the "best" dps class and are scared that they'll be outted for being trash if any other class actually competed with them on a level playing field.

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    Considering it already has changes that make it not an entirely authentic recreation makes the nochange crowd inane anyway.
    Just because its not 100% doesnt mean you can add more.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I never used PvP as an argument outside of "not to mention PvP ramifications", because healers suddenly having a shitload of more output most certainly does affect PvP.

    That aside, i've never suggested any "change in pve".



    Killing Rag before the submerge seems like a wise strategy to me, same goes for bringing Ony into P3 before any Breath.

    You skip mechanics, healers don't have to worry about their mana as much, everyone profits from it.
    By prolonging a fight, you just create room for more errors.



    No, the fight is a tank & spank fight.
    You just nuke the boss until he's dead, no dmg stop, that's it.
    Outside of keeping the dogs away from Golemagg, one doesn't have to worry about anything, trying to play around the debuff just prolongs the fight for no beneficial reason whatsoever because the healers can't simply generate mana out of thin air, they still have to keep people up.

    Also, please start using punctation marks, i have to read over your sentences multiple times in order to actually understand them.
    if mana was such an important factor in downing current bosses you would just take more healers

    you don't ever raid lead do you?

    you seem to misunderstand how another mechanic works this time on Onyxia

    yes there is a damage stop/slow on Golemagg while you wait for tank to build up threat also if you are about to over take the tank in threat you stop dps
    saying there is no stop is a good way to increase the time it takes to kill the boss
    Last edited by Daish; 2019-10-19 at 04:54 AM.

  15. #115
    You wanted #nochanges, you get #nochanges. There's a reason they redesigned so much of the game in the expansions - many aspects of Vanilla gameplay sucked. But that's what it was, so that's what you get in Classic.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I know you guys talk about this, and theres disagreement on the term "viable", but this is why ppl dont like to bring dps hybrids. While you are cycling different ranks to "fix" the mana problems of your spec, the mage is just spamming max rank frostbolt and doing double your damage.
    I am sorry to sound obtuse but... so what? The boss still dies.

    P.S. Did you really think I didn't know mages do more damage...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gratlim View Post
    I spam max rank starfire as Boomkin and went oom only twice for Maj and Rag fights and was saved by CDs / consumables. Innervate is for myself, demonic rune + mana potion + no silly healing out of form = no mana issues. Imp GotW, Moonkin aura, is my utility. Only getting out of chocobo form for critical BR or Tranquil.
    haha chocobo form I never heard that one :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Ya for mc it's all fine cause fights are short. I'm more referring to why they are "discriminated" against in later raids
    Even in Later raids this "discrimination" is not warranted.
    Shaman Raid Tank aficionado & expert in off-meta specs: Melee Hunter, Smite Priest, Priest Tank Guide, Rogue Tank and more...

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devilyaki View Post
    You think you wanted classic but didn't.
    Classic never interested me tbh, i never hopped in to the #nochanges wagon simply because it saddens me that players could not enjoy their favorite class/specc to the fullest. it bothers me that some players had to go trough some bad experiences simply because of their specc not being invited to do content or getting flamed for playing whatever specc they want.

    now when i heard about classic i was hoping for a "remastered classic" where devs can implement new graphics, balance changes, extra content, etc... but seeing my Tread it is obvious that we are a divided community and we think differently over how classic should be.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Alexplode View Post
    Classic never interested me tbh, i never hopped in to the #nochanges wagon simply because it saddens me that players could not enjoy their favorite class/specc to the fullest. it bothers me that some players had to go trough some bad experiences simply because of their specc not being invited to do content or getting flamed for playing whatever specc they want.

    now when i heard about classic i was hoping for a "remastered classic" where devs can implement new graphics, balance changes, extra content, etc... but seeing my Tread it is obvious that we are a divided community and we think differently over how classic should be.
    Tell me. How much dps should a hybrid do compared to a pure? 80% 90%?

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by AceofH View Post
    Tell me. How much dps should a hybrid do compared to a pure? 80% 90%?
    My concern was Mana efficiency not raw damage. I understand that this question floating in this post is purely because some think that speccs that are struggling with Mana, with a change like this will over perform pure dps classes which is a valid concern.

    With that being said can someone point which specc could potentially be performing too well if that was the case?

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Alexplode View Post
    My concern was Mana efficiency not raw damage. I understand that this question floating in this post is purely because some think that speccs that are struggling with Mana, with a change like this will over perform pure dps classes which is a valid concern.

    With that being said can someone point which specc could potentially be performing too well if that was the case?
    Strictly mana efficiency has issues with making them broken in pvp. Balance and elemental do fine in pvp. Make them more mana efficient and it gets absurd

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