Would it hurt to fix hybrid speccs Mana issues?.

[Mukind]

You can't do that or you need to completely redo itemization and stats on gear.

Listen, people, this is supposed to be a recreation of vanilla as accurately as possible, complete with warts and all. The moment you change things you run into two issues... 1) What changes are we making and why those and not others.... and 2) what are the effects of a change (or a set of changes)?

The easiest approach is #nochanges and you simply tell people that what they're getting is Vanilla, as closely as Blizzard can recreate it. Anyone with half a brain can then figure out that balance druids are going to have certain issues, ret rallies others etc.

Does this mean Classic/Vanilla is awesome? No, it's got obvious issues. But the entire purpose of releasing it was precisely for those people who really liked Vanilla and want to experience it again (or for those who are curious and didn't get to play it the first time around. That's all. If someone doesn't like Classic.... that's fine.

Wut lol accurate as possible Van lla recreation he says.

P servers are better

Idk what ur little diatribe has to do with my post but I've responded there u go.

And u most certainly can change the stats around and give warrior/rogue nothing

[Alexplode]

The problem with your sweet spot as defined by you is that now every raid needs a feral or balance druid in each group.

I never wanted pure dps specs to be replaced in their raid slot. You are over reacting...

Now all of a sudden you need 20% of your raid being dps druids alone. Throw in healers and tanks and your up to a full half of your raid. Youve just swung the issue the other way. Now classes with MINIMAL UTILITY like rogues and hunters are second class citizens.

Again... what is your problem with casters lasting 45 secs instead of 30? would that be way too broken for you? would an hybrid output of 40-45% of a true dps class be too much for you instead of 30%?

Good job with your balance.

Thank you ^^! it was just a random though but i thank you for your comment. (Buddy, im not a dev chill, dont get too salty about it)

This is why balance changes are a pain, and why i am so against them.

valid point, now you can move on!

[FlubberPuddy]

There should be a sweet spot where let's say you can bring a moonkin for the utility/crit buff and still be viable in dps for raiding where staying longer in fights will result in a better than before net dmg gain of raid dps.

Pretty much. Ppl hyperbole and think hybrid players want to TOP METERS, just being able to fully play through a raid fight would make many immensely happy I'm sure.

Yes it is. Never played classic before and although I have some concerns about some aspects I prefer to play it over BFA. I'm currently a lvl 60 feral Druid or a mix between resto/feral for pvp really makes me feel like a support and I'm enjoying it since it's the first time playing something else than rogue or disc priest on retail over the past years.

Happy to hear this! I also never played Classic before, and yeah certain things are unbalanced but it's refreshing and enjoyable overall. I've made like 3 paladins lol

Something that come in to mind is tweaking damage spell ranks a little bit since downranking is a thing in classic ie: slightly reducing Mana cost of Max rank damage spells for hybrids and greatly reducing Mana cost of lesser ranks (a few ranks down, maybe an alternate rank) at Max level so you can still do some dps. so while not being top notch you are still doing something and bring your utility to the raid.

I think that would overcome the pvp problem, maybe?

Yeah that sounds interesting. Or add in new gear sets that would fix mana issues, and PvE restricted. So that way it fixes really glaring issues and doesn't touch PvP balancing at all.

I just find it silly how everyone's ok with 1 class (Warriors) being able to perform incredibly with all their specs yet frown on others for wanting to do the same.

[Stormspellz]

Hello, 1st post on a wow forum since I lost posting privileges on AJ during WOTLK lol.

Anyway,

Wouldn't that make your classic experience better?.

Is it going to hurt your nostalgia or gameplay?.

Wouldn't that make raids and other content more fun?

Thoughts?

they do...in TBC. and I'm sure they will in Classic+ development

[AceofH]

I never wanted pure dps specs to be replaced in their raid slot. You are over reacting...
Again... what is your problem with casters lasting 45 secs instead of 30? would that be way too broken for you? would an hybrid output of 40-45% of a true dps class be too much for you instead of 30%?

Thank you ^^! it was just a random though but i thank you for your comment. (Buddy, im not a dev chill, dont get to salty about it)
valid point, now you can move on!

You literally said "There should be a sweet spot where let's say you can bring a moonkin for the utility/crit buff and still be viable in dps for raiding where staying longer in fights will result in a better than before net dmg gain of raid dps." If this were to happen, the meta would shift. Every raid would run 8 dps druids. 1 feral for each melee party, 1 balance for each caster party. Because the net sum of adding them to that party is more dps then before.


You didnt ask for them to last 45 seconds. You said you wanted their dps + the buff to party to be a net dps gain for the party. Which means for more then just a 15 second window increase. Lets take a caster party for example.
If we had a group of 5 mages doing 2000 collective dps and you want the replacing of 1 mage with balance to be positive, that means the 4 mages and 1 druid must be greater then 2k.
If that happens, every party would get a druid for the dps increase.
Leading to raids with 8 druid dps.
Throw in 2 or 3 tanks and 8 or 9 healers and you are at 18 to 20 people before you even start with everything else.


Most hybrids are around half the dps of warriors, and higher then that for mages and rogues. But yeah, keep lieing about 30% when Warcraft logs tells us otherwise.

[FlubberPuddy]

You literally said "There should be a sweet spot where let's say you can bring a moonkin for the utility/crit buff and still be viable in dps for raiding where staying longer in fights will result in a better than before net dmg gain of raid dps." If this were to happen, the meta would shift. Every raid would run 8 dps druids. 1 feral for each melee party, 1 balance for each caster party. Because the net sum of adding them to that party is more dps then before.

Most raids happening right now are not all 40 man with whatever the most meta amount of classes aka for the general playerbase. I've done successful MC raids where we didn't even have 8 healers/full 40man group/4 warlocks etc. and without needing consumables up the ass.

So it's not that crazy if people aren't so against bringing more than 1 feral dps or moonkin or w/e if that's how that group wants to play. Classic isn't difficult enough to care about "always bringing the most efficient group possible".

Besides the meta has already changed with the increased knowledge and skill that players in Classic today have over those who played in Vanilla. Druids are being used as main tanks, mages aoe leveling, dungeon grinding, spellpower paladins w/MCP, feral dps w/MCP, Fury/Prot DW tanking, etc etc.

Bunch of stuff meta-wise is different all cuz of better knowledge.

[Alexplode]

You literally said "There should be a sweet spot where let's say you can bring a moonkin for the utility/crit buff and still be viable in dps for raiding where staying longer in fights will result in a better than before net dmg gain of raid dps." If this were to happen, the meta would shift. Every raid would run 8 dps druids. 1 feral for each melee party, 1 balance for each caster party. Because the net sum of adding them to that party is more dps then before.

You didnt ask for them to last 45 seconds. You said you wanted their dps + the buff to party to be a net dps gain for the party. Which means for more then just a 15 second window increase.

"better than BEFORE net dmg gain". i intentionally put that word in there because i knew this would happen and i was actually expecting for someone to come back at me with my post XD. Wouldn't be a net gain of dps i they stay a little bit longer in the fight in an event where a raid boss would last the intentional time and actually go through all phases. Im done, hyperbole this all you want you have shared your point.

[AceofH]

Most raids happening right now are not all 40 man with whatever the most meta amount of classes aka for the general playerbase. I've done successful MC raids where we didn't even have 8 healers/full 40man group/4 warlocks etc. and without needing consumables up the ass.

So it's not that crazy if people aren't so against bringing more than 1 feral dps or moonkin or w/e if that's how that group wants to play. Classic isn't difficult enough to care about "always bringing the most efficient group possible".

Besides the meta has already changed with the increased knowledge and skill that players in Classic today have over those who played in Vanilla. Druids are being used as main tanks, mages aoe leveling, dungeon grinding, spellpower paladins w/MCP, feral dps w/MCP, Fury/Prot DW tanking, etc etc.

Bunch of stuff meta-wise is different all cuz of better knowledge.

1 feral or balance per party. Not raid. That means 8 dps druids alone. 1 class is taking at minimum 20% of the raid slots

[clevin]

Wut lol accurate as possible Van lla recreation he says.

P servers are better

Idk what ur little diatribe has to do with my post but I've responded there u go.

And u most certainly can change the stats around and give warrior/rogue nothing

1) learn too spell and use actual English

2) Go back to school. You're embarrassingly ignorant and incapable of logic.

[AceofH]

"better than BEFORE net dmg gain". i intentionally put that word in there because i knew this would happen and i was actually expecting for someone to come back at me with my post XD. Wouldn't be a net gain of dps i they stay a little bit longer in the fight in an event where a raid boss would last the intentional time and actually go through all phases. Im done, hyperbole this all you want you have shared your point.

You accuse me of hyperbole but you are saying hybrids are doing 30% of a pures dps and they are actually closer to 50%. But hey. Guess its okay when you do it am i right?

[Alexplode]

would that be way too broken for you? would an hybrid output of 60-65% of a true dps class be too much for you instead of 30%?.

There you go my friend, i apologize. I have fixed my hyperbole.

[AceofH]

would that be way too broken for you? would an hybrid output of 60-65% of a true dps class be too much for you instead of 30%?.

There you go my friend, i apologize. I have fixed my hyperbole.

Your still being hyperbole though. They arent doing 30%. Either way. Yes. The goal is authentic. If you want something else, ask for a new game with it. Even blizzard has said no to changes and balance. As matter of fact, they said if they were to do balance we would get retail balance and design. No thank you to that.

If you want classic + go ask for that. But dont take classic from those who just want classic

[OokOok]

So, this is a terrible idea. Have you ever actually played vanilla in any form? Have you ever gone 1v1 against a Shadow priest,feral or even boomkin? If you fix SP/boomkin mana issues to make them viable in PVE they are now gods in PVP, Shadow priest is stronger in 1v1 then even warlock and rogue they are the gods of dueling and the only thing holding them back is Mana.
Just stop crying, you're literally crying and asking for changes on a 15 year old version of the game. Go to retail, retail is the place where blizzard cares about casuals and their opinions

[Alexplode]

Your still being hyperbole though. They arent doing 30%. Either way. Yes. The goal is authentic. If you want something else, ask for a new game with it. Even blizzard has said no to changes and balance. As matter of fact, they said if they were to do balance we would get retail balance and design. No thank you to that.

If you want classic + go ask for that. But dont take classic from those who just want classic

I'm aware of blizzard standpoint and yes I'm asking for classic+. This thread was about "what if" let's just see what actually happens. Who knows perhaps we would get it, perhaps not. Would you play it or at least try it?

[AceofH]

I'm aware of blizzard standpoint and yes I'm asking for classic+. This thread was about "what if" let's just see what actually happens. Who knows perhaps we would get it, perhaps not. Would you play it or at least try it?

Nope. Because its not what i want or spent time fighting for.

[A Blue Smurf]

Should the mana issues be addressed they should only be from a PvE perspective, if at all.
Taking talents such as Spirit Tap/Imp. Drain Soul and applying them in the trees that suffer from mana problems should be the entire extent of any change in my opinion. Ideally you'd want to restrict any immediate/short term gains for a bottom-end sustainability.
Basically they should burn through the bulk of their mana if they maintain a usual 'rotation' and be on emergency rations from there on. It should be an active choice to output short term max dps or have sustainable dps. Anything beyond this would make most of the 'hybrid dps' specs far too powerful in PvP, most of them already are very effective in terms of PvP with their main weakness coming for a lack of longevity.

If you're concerned about PvE performance for hybrid specs, then the changes to look for need to be more inline with baseline utility that is lacking from them. Ie taunts for paladins, on-demand damage capacity for paladins, active mitigation/avoidance for druid tanks OR addressing itemization/crit-ability, threat management for feral dps etc

There are far more core issues surrounding specs in classic than just mana, and most of them would be easier to fix with far less potential fallout.

[Devilyaki]

Well we are at it fix finding a group give lfd and lfr, slap the bliz store on there too. Could also double the lvl cap as well. Wait what happened to classic...

[FlubberPuddy]

Well we are at it fix finding a group give lfd and lfr, slap the bliz store on there too. Could also double the lvl cap as well. Wait what happened to classic...

It's a logical fallacy to Appeal to Extremes aka Reductio ad absurdum. Too many people on MMO-C do this.

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Or maybe it's the majority of the internet.

[SinR]

Yes, because #NoChanges

/Thread

[AceofH]

It's a logical fallacy to Appeal to Extremes aka Reductio ad absurdum. Too many people on MMO-C do this.

- - - Updated - - -

Or maybe it's the majority of the internet.

Its only a fallacy if their isnt evidence to back it up. We didnt get to retail overnight, it was death by a hundred cuts, and it always starts small.