Would it hurt to fix hybrid speccs Mana issues?.

[AceofH]

Other than calling these people idiots, that's also my take on the topic. Most people who are against the mana changes are rogues/mages/warriors, with a select few going for the "they will be OP in PvP" angle. Either way, I truly believe that if Blizzard goes for Classic+ in terms of content, they are bound to make class changes of one form or another.

or just people who want an authentic vanilla wow. what was asked for. what was promised. if you want a different version, ask for blizzard to make it for you. i hear they have a great track record of being creative lately. look at battle for azeroth as an example.

[Nite92]

Hello, 1st post on a wow forum since I lost posting privileges on AJ during WOTLK lol.

Anyway,

Wouldn't that make your classic experience better?.

Is it going to hurt your nostalgia or gameplay?.

Wouldn't that make raids and other content more fun?

Thoughts?

Yes, it kind of makes sense. You have heals, ergo you are not as potent as DPS.

[iosdeveloper]

it would make the game better and more fun 100%
but, #nochanges

p.s. i played ret in vanilla and decided to roll a mage this time to experience the contrast
i was so dumb and blind back in the day, i think i deserved the suffering

[Warning]

Classic+ with a TBC-like rebalance after P6 would be great. Ret could get some mana recovery from judgment and crusader and more tank specs could become viable. A lot could also be done through a new dungeon hub with gear tailored to these specs roughly at aq20 level and maybe a new raid or two with itemlevels around aq40/Naxx but not beyond. T

The reason you don't want to move into BC is because you want to eventually end up with a game that has a very extensive but static endgame. BC's last patch doesn't really have that because each tier entirely replaces all previous tiers, whereas in classic raid and even dungeon gear has much more staying power. It also has a much larger and more immersive landmass not designed around flying, which you also don't want.

[Kralljin]

if mana was such an important factor in downing current bosses you would just take more healers

No, you'd then try to kill the boss faster.
It's a pretty easy thing, if your healer have mana issues, then your dps take unnecessary damage or take too long to kill the boss.

yes there is a damage stop/slow on Golemagg while you wait for tank to build up threat

Sure, threat, but that's another story.
I'm talking about encounter specific mechanics, and even then, having your dps having too much dps stop due to threat is a good hint that your MT is bad or your dps is totally overgeared.

And i'll say it again, please use punctations marks, your sentences are very difficult to read.

Also, simply claiming you were a raidleader, doesn't mean you'd have any authority on what is the correct way, Classic was that easy that you could do things very wrong and still succeed.

[Kralljin]

threat limits your dps more then mana
threat limits your dps more then anything else
threat is one of the most important mechanics in classic if you were a raid leader u would know this

doing your max DPS is almost never the right thing to do

If threat is such a limiting factor, then:
1.Your Tank is undergeared (Or doesn't wear TPS gear)
2.Your Dps is overgeared
3.Your Tank is terrible

Unless there is a mechanic that interacts with threat, Dps shouldn't be pulling aggro even if they're going all out.

[enzi]

Mana issues?
Mana potions, Dark Rune, Demonic Rune!
Yeah, sucks needing to farm this much compared to other classes. On the other hand, mana issues scale with how much the raid sucks or is undergeared.
Where hybrids really suck is doing content with less people than intended. Non-mana classes are better carries in long fights.

[Daevied]

No, hybrid tax is something they should never have changed

[time0ut]

No expansion was a "full reset" on class design until Cataclysm... The changes made in TBC and Wrath were extrodinarily minor by comparison.

It was a full progression reset, as every expansion has been, allowing them to fix one of the biggest issues with hybrid performance: gear design.

[Relapses]

#NoChangesExceptTheChangesILikeCuzIKnowBetterThanBlizzard

[kail]

threat limits your dps more then mana
threat limits your dps more then anything else
threat is one of the most important mechanics in classic if you were a raid leader u would know this

doing your max DPS is almost never the right thing to do

Their tanks are bad or undergeared. Minis some wonky threat resets (i.e. Ony) it shouldn't be hard for warrior tanks to maintain top threat. It is part of the tanks job to let dps go all out after some time post-pull.

[Polarthief]

I think a class rebalance via Classic+ would be awesome. Shake up the meta.

REE THAT'S NOW HOW IT WAS BACK IN VANILLA! MUH NOSTALGIAAAAAAAA

Though this is classic, its like a museum so they shouldnt change anythin tbh.

I mean I was kidding. I really hoped they'd just sliiiiightly tweak some stuff to be playable (like Prot Paladin for raiding).

[Schattenlied]

It was a full progression reset, as every expansion has been, allowing them to fix one of the biggest issues with hybrid performance: gear design.

That was not one of the biggest issues, it was one of the smallest... AQ has lots of gear that was perfect for Ret Paladins, and they still weren't viable DPS because of it.

[Mukind]

Hello, 1st post on a wow forum since I lost posting privileges on AJ during WOTLK lol.

Anyway,

Wouldn't that make your classic experience better?.

Is it going to hurt your nostalgia or gameplay?.

Wouldn't that make raids and other content more fun?

Thoughts?

The obvious fix to this is just make mana related stats basically count as dead stats in the ilvl system. So there would be a lionheart helm with the same stats plus int/mp5 or whatever and would still count as the same "ilvl" as lionheart. Even tho it would have more stats

Another fix would be just get rid of mana and replace with other energy forms....Get rid of all the int on the gear. But any changes will more than likely totally upend the pvp meta

Energy hunter would be so annoying. So many vipers

[clevin]

The obvious fix to this is just make mana related stats basically count as dead stats in the ilvl system. So there would be a lionheart helm with the same stats plus int/mp5 or whatever and would still count as the same "ilvl" as lionheart. Even tho it would have more stats

Another fix would be just get rid of mana and replace with other energy forms....Get rid of all the int on the gear. But any changes will more than likely totally upend the pvp meta

Energy hunter would be so annoying. So many vipers

You can't do that or you need to completely redo itemization and stats on gear.

Listen, people, this is supposed to be a recreation of vanilla as accurately as possible, complete with warts and all. The moment you change things you run into two issues... 1) What changes are we making and why those and not others.... and 2) what are the effects of a change (or a set of changes)?

The easiest approach is #nochanges and you simply tell people that what they're getting is Vanilla, as closely as Blizzard can recreate it. Anyone with half a brain can then figure out that balance druids are going to have certain issues, ret rallies others etc.

Does this mean Classic/Vanilla is awesome? No, it's got obvious issues. But the entire purpose of releasing it was precisely for those people who really liked Vanilla and want to experience it again (or for those who are curious and didn't get to play it the first time around. That's all. If someone doesn't like Classic.... that's fine.

[FlubberPuddy]

so now were fundamentally changing how the game is played even further. no thanks. you have retail for that type of garbage.

"fundamentally" lol, I don't think as many people are going to throw a huge fit if a moonkin can do 20% less of a Warrior/Rogue/Mage dps instead of 70% less in PvE only.

But aside from that, whether balance changes happen or not - the great thing is Classic is finally here and able to be played and it's amazing.

Talking about potentially (although highly unlikely) doing a bit of balancing where hybrids can be decently effective for PvE content (aka allowing choice in specs endgame) won't change the fact that Classic's finally here to stay.

- - - Updated - - -

Ya I guess but it seems most just want to change it back to retail anyways.

Well that depends if someone wants to look at it through the lens of it being binary (0/1) or they realize that it's actually a spectrum from 0-100 with many small points in-between.

Kind of like how it turned out that PuGs are common at end-game for raid clears and it's not "find a guild or you can't do any end-game content at all ever!" as some people tried to insinuate before release.

[Aggrophobic]

Hello, 1st post on a wow forum since I lost posting privileges on AJ during WOTLK lol.

Anyway,

Wouldn't that make your classic experience better?.

Is it going to hurt your nostalgia or gameplay?.

Wouldn't that make raids and other content more fun?

Thoughts?

Yes, yes it would hurt.
Go play retail if you want changes.

It litteraly took Blizzard two whole expansions befor they even got close to some kind of balance and it took complete redesignes in many cases. The game would no longer be anything close to vanilla if you made these changes.

[Alexplode]

Go play retail if you want changes.
.

No. I Won't play BFA just because your opinion differs from mine. Keep it hypothetical and constructive. If you don't want changes that is fine. It is obvious that your "nostalgic classic" won't change which is ok. At this point blizzard is getting feedback for classic+ servers which is a possibility then I can watch how the #nochanges players go right in to it.

[Alexplode]

"fundamentally" lol, I don't think as many people are going to throw a huge fit if a moonkin can do 20% less of a Warrior/Rogue/Mage dps instead of 70% less in PvE only.

There should be a sweet spot where let's say you can bring a moonkin for the utility/crit buff and still be viable in dps for raiding where staying longer in fights will result in a better than before net dmg gain of raid dps.

But aside from that, whether balance changes happen or not - the great thing is Classic is finally here and able to be played and it's amazing.

Yes it is. Never played classic before and although I have some concerns about some aspects I prefer to play it over BFA. I'm currently a lvl 60 feral Druid or a mix between resto/feral for pvp really makes me feel like a support and I'm enjoying it since it's the first time playing something else than rogue or disc priest on retail over the past years.

Talking about potentially (although highly unlikely) doing a bit of balancing where hybrids can be decently effective for PvE content (aka allowing choice in specs endgame) won't change the fact that Classic's finally here to stay.

Something that come in to mind is tweaking damage spell ranks a little bit since downranking is a thing in classic ie: slightly reducing Mana cost of Max rank damage spells for hybrids and greatly reducing Mana cost of lesser ranks (a few ranks down, maybe an alternate rank) at Max level so you can still do some dps. so while not being top notch you are still doing something and bring your utility to the raid.

I think that would overcome the pvp problem, maybe?

[AceofH]

There should be a sweet spot where let's say you can bring a moonkin for the utility/crit buff and still be viable in dps for raiding where staying longer in fights will result in a better than before net dmg gain of raid dps.

Yes it is. Never played classic before and although I have some concerns about some aspects I prefer to play it over BFA. I'm currently a lvl 60 feral Druid or a mix between resto/feral for pvp really makes me feel like a support and I'm enjoying it since it's the first time playing something else than rogue or disc priest on retail over the past years.



Something that come in to mind is tweaking damage spell ranks a little bit since downranking is a thing in classic ie: slightly reducing Mana cost of Max rank damage spells for hybrids and greatly reducing Mana cost of lesser ranks (a few ranks down, maybe an alternate rank) at Max level so you can still do some dps. so while not being top notch you are still doing something and bring your utility to the raid.

I think that would overcome the pvp problem, maybe?

The problem with your sweet spot as defined by you is that now every raid needs a feral or balance druid in each group. (Because the damage + utility is greater then what it would be without it present).

Now all of a sudden you need 20% of your raid being dps druids alone. Throw in healers and tanks and your up to a full half of your raid. Youve just swung the issue the other way. Now classes with MINIMAL UTILITY like rogues and hunters are second class citizens.

Good job with your balance.

Nvm what you just did to pvp by giving two bursty casters sustain to go with it. Yes, even a slight reduction in max rank will help their sustain.

This is why balance changes are a pain, and why i am so against them.