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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    And I for one didn't and won't do it either. Fireball would be useless for an Arcane Mage, while Living Bomb, Meteor and Scorch would be something they could use. There is the difference. Adding spells just to add spells doesn't help gameplay, while adding spells that you could actually use, do help gameplay. The difference is night and day.
    As I see it, talents would enhance certain spells. So if you had used no points to enhance for example Meteor, then it would be nearly worthless.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2019-10-19 at 01:59 PM.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    For me it’s not about getting abilities. I see the question as: “why would a mage forget spells? Why is it necessary to remove spells?”
    Because i think it's okay not to have spells in your spellbook that you're not going to use anyway.
    Looking at it from a dev perspective, why put stuff into it that a player is never going to use anyway?

    It's one of these thing that players probably wouldn't even have questioned if WoW did have the current talent system right off the bat.

    But i don't care that much about to argue against it, if people just want that back, let them have it, but don't assume you'll be using them.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Celarent View Post
    Conceptually you can justify it in the same way a world-class jazz trumpet player who also has background on piano wouldn't be able to master the embouchure or technique of a woodwind, and wouldn't bother to mention it as a skill, even if he could hold his own noodling in a basement with childhood friends.

    And I may not care for class dev teams' decisions but ability bloat and spec preservation are challenges that can't be ignored.
    I don't think that's the same. This is not about what you mention as a skills. It's just about what you can and cannot do. And I think a Mage should be able to cast a Frostbolt no matter what. If the Frostbolt then was unbuffed by talents, it would be nearly worhtless, but the Mage would still be able to cast it. That's how I see it at least.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Because i think it's okay not to have spells in your spellbook that you're not going to use anyway.
    Looking at it from a dev perspective, why put stuff into it that a player is never going to use anyway?

    It's one of these thing that players probably wouldn't even have questioned if WoW did have the current talent system right off the bat.

    But i don't care that much about to argue against it, if people just want that back, let them have it, but don't assume you'll be using them.
    We just look at it from different angles. You ask why add it and I ask why remove it.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    The fact that people keep using Mages as the go to example for this development just shows how little they understand of classic and how they actually affected your class.
    I would think it is because mages are the easiest one to use as an example of since visually the specs are so distinct. Fire, Frost and Arcane. I agree that Mage is very simplified in that the school of magic has been quite different between the specs since classic. A Fire Mage use fire spells, an Arcane Mage use Arcane spells, and it's been like this forever. That's why I think that adding the other school of magic spells for the sake of adding it, is silly. If it has a good use, then by all means.
    Horde bad, smash monkey. Who is a good monkey? You are!

    Wrath of The Bolvar too big for this forum. 10.0 confirmed?

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Radaney View Post
    Literally just give us MoP back with slightly less utility.

    And stop stacking OP PvE utility on certain classes like Demon Hunters and Rogues, that can do everything possible in the game with the easiest rotations in the game.

    Literally doing 100k DPS pressing 1 button on a short CD Eye Beam, whilst having strong ST damage, a CD that lasts about 2 minutes in duration that gives high survivability too, the most mobility in the game, a long st cc, a dps increase debuff, a complete immunity, an aoe damage reduction, strong DR, resource generating interrupt, aoe stun.

    Whilst DKs have; High Burst ST or AoE damage whilst consistent dps is low for either ST or AoE, a grip, a really shitty cloak, perma slow cc at loss of dps resource, a rez. The lowest mobility in the game.
    https://www.arenamate.net/?region=&r...r=2v2&faction=

    https://www.arenamate.net/?region=&r...r=3v3&faction=

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../23#dataset=95

    Looks like an L2P issue.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    I would think it is because mages are the easiest one to use as an example of since visually the specs are so distinct. Fire, Frost and Arcane. I agree that Mage is very simplified in that the school of magic has been quite different between the specs since classic. A Fire Mage use fire spells, an Arcane Mage use Arcane spells, and it's been like this forever. That's why I think that adding the other school of magic spells for the sake of adding it, is silly. If it has a good use, then by all means.
    Again it's not about adding it. They are already there, you just can't use them. It's just about removing the restrictions. Currently, you can still see the abilities from the other specs but they are just grey'd out. My question is then why not just let's us be able to use them even if we're no supposed to. Would it be so horrific if we could cast a pointless Frostbolt while spec'd for Fire..

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    We just look at it from different angles. You ask why add it and I ask why remove it.
    I didn't ask "why add it", i'm not going to repeat myself.

    But for someone who just wants abilities for the sake of flavor back, one should perhaps choose another thread that doesn't reek off "i want the old talent trees back".

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I didn't ask "why add it", i'm not going to repeat myself.

    But for someone who just wants abilities for the sake of flavor back, one should perhaps choose another thread that doesn't reek off "i want the old talent trees back".
    Sorry I didn't try to put words in your mouth. But as I understand it, you just don't see any need for a Fire mage to be able to use Frostbolt. Sorry if I'm wrong.

    This thread is not about getting the old talent trees back. It's just about what abilities you can and cannot use.

    Right now, Blizzard says that a Fire Mage shouldn't be able to use Frostbolt.

    What I'm saying is just that a Mage who focus on Fire shouldn't be able to do any significant damage with Frostbolt, but they should still be able to use it.

    It's just about removing restrictions for me.

  9. #169
    Yeah no

    If I want to play a frost death knight, I don't want unholy or blood spells anywhere near my toolkit.

    Specs should stay, this whole de-pruning because people REALLY like buttons is ridiculous.
    Last edited by LarryFromHR; 2019-10-19 at 02:25 PM.
    DO YOU REALLY THINK YOU CAN CAST ASIDE YOUR GUILT SO EASILY

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    The talents trees are very often bad because they fail at significantly providing a boost to your character.
    Specializations are about specializing yourself, not getting just some marginal boost out of it, that's where a lot of classic talent trees fell through.

    The Mage example above follows suit, if you invest 41 points into Frost / Fire, shouldn't Flamestrike / Blizzard be better than some baseline spell without any improvements?
    To the second point, maybe but not necessarily. If deep investment is a no-brainer then the tree system isn't as interesting. Even top-level dials like overall damage encourage spec-only/school-only gameplay if not careful. With your Restoration example, not only are there many more talents with use outside of a min-max, PVE-centric assessment, but the numbers encourage players to think of their characters as shaman first, with some advantages in different abilities second.

    That brings us back to how one views the original trees. Vanilla designer Kevin Jordan recently stated that a goal of talents was to make it possible for two of the same class to be a little different from each other; customization and individuality rather than explicit superiority. I'm sure he's said more to round out that view but it's a good idea of what the intention was. While that design can't be grafted onto live, it definitely stands on its own in its original context.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Again it's not about adding it. They are already there, you just can't use them. It's just about removing the restrictions. Currently, you can still see the abilities from the other specs but they are just grey'd out. My question is then why not just let's us be able to use them even if we're no supposed to. Would it be so horrific if we could cast a pointless Frostbolt while spec'd for Fire..
    Well they would have to add it to the spec again. I thought that was obvious that I mean that, to remove the restrictions. They are not there when I play Arcane, so yes, they would have to ADD it to the specs. Geez....
    Horde bad, smash monkey. Who is a good monkey? You are!

    Wrath of The Bolvar too big for this forum. 10.0 confirmed?

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    If the Frostbolt then was unbuffed by talents, it would be nearly worhtless, but the Mage would still be able to cast it. That's how I see it at least.
    Sure, but...at that rate you could allow the mage to use Mortal Strike for 0 damage because he's a 98-pound weakling. There are logistical costs, not least complications of coding, to do what you're asking. Realize that I'm trying to make your request into a practical improvement to the game. If it's "I just want it," why not have Blizzard program an RP ability that aesthetically mimics whatever you want in non-combat or NPC-only combat encounters?

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Celarent View Post
    Sure, but...at that rate you could allow the mage to use Mortal Strike for 0 damage because he's a 98-pound weakling. There are logistical costs, not least complications of coding, to do what you're asking. Realize that I'm trying to make your request into a practical improvement to the game. If it's "I just want it," why not have Blizzard program an RP ability that aesthetically mimics whatever you want in non-combat or NPC-only combat encounters?
    I think you misunderstand what I want

    Right now there is an artificial restriction that says I cannot use Frostbolt while in Fire spec. I can still see Frostbolt in the Frost page, but I just cannot use it. I simply want that restriction removed. Nothing more. The Frostbolt should not be a part of the Fire rotation or anything.

    Now, if that creates coding issues (which I know nothing about) then it's another story of course. I just couldn't see it cause much issue for Blizzard to remove that restriction. But I don't know that for sure.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    And I for one didn't and won't do it either. Fireball would be useless for an Arcane Mage, while Living Bomb, Meteor and Scorch would be something they could use. There is the difference. Adding spells just to add spells doesn't help gameplay, while adding spells that you could actually use, do help gameplay. The difference is night and day.
    That difference was there in the early expansions, where you didn't have an instant or quick cast in the arcane spec, which today you do. And living bomb was a deep fire talent anyway so it's not like you had access to it as arcane anyway.

    I would've wanted access to felguard as affliction but guess what?
    Warlock soloing https://www.youtube.com/user/Firedemon012 (old & abandoned)

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Well they would have to add it to the spec again. I thought that was obvious that I mean that, to remove the restrictions. They are not there when I play Arcane, so yes, they would have to ADD it to the specs. Geez....
    They are there visually. They are just grey'd out. As I see it they should just remove the restriction.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Celarent View Post
    but the numbers encourage players to think of their characters as shaman first, with some advantages in different abilities second.
    That is just one of those hollow word shells that do not mean anything.
    The point i made is the fact that someone who doesn't put any points into Restoration is just marginally worse than someone who puts the majority of points into it.
    You're not doing anything more "Shaman like", you just spam CH, that's it.

    If you're a Healer, you're a Healer, you spam healing spells.

    Specializations should feel powerful, that's the point of choice, if a choice has no meaning, it is not an engaging choice.

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    Then they learn the hard way, and learn from their death.
    Happens to a lot of huntards in Classic
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  18. #178
    Specs should stay, this whole de-pruning because people REALLY like buttons is ridiculous.
    This is not depruning, this could actually be the opposite.

    This could end by giving every class only 1 "spec" instead of 3 so massive pruning, and then addying slight variations in the form of old classic tree.

    One guy responded that it could work like in MoP instead. The op did not confirmed.

  19. #179
    Agreed. While I do prefer the modern talent selection style over the old trees of useless filler, that really has nothing to do with specs being so split up. I liked it much better when most of the class toolkit was baseline, and talent choices just added some perks. This is especially true with caster specs, where it makes no sense why I suddenly forget entire schools of magic.

  20. #180
    Homogenization in MMOs has proven to be a bad idea over and over again.

    No thanks.

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