Let’s move away from forced specs.

[Doffen]

The fact that people keep using Mages as the go to example for this development just shows how little they understand of classic and how they actually affected your class.

I would think it is because mages are the easiest one to use as an example of since visually the specs are so distinct. Fire, Frost and Arcane. I agree that Mage is very simplified in that the school of magic has been quite different between the specs since classic. A Fire Mage use fire spells, an Arcane Mage use Arcane spells, and it's been like this forever. That's why I think that adding the other school of magic spells for the sake of adding it, is silly. If it has a good use, then by all means.

[Segus1992]

Literally just give us MoP back with slightly less utility.

And stop stacking OP PvE utility on certain classes like Demon Hunters and Rogues, that can do everything possible in the game with the easiest rotations in the game.

Literally doing 100k DPS pressing 1 button on a short CD Eye Beam, whilst having strong ST damage, a CD that lasts about 2 minutes in duration that gives high survivability too, the most mobility in the game, a long st cc, a dps increase debuff, a complete immunity, an aoe damage reduction, strong DR, resource generating interrupt, aoe stun.

Whilst DKs have; High Burst ST or AoE damage whilst consistent dps is low for either ST or AoE, a grip, a really shitty cloak, perma slow cc at loss of dps resource, a rez. The lowest mobility in the game.

https://www.arenamate.net/?region=&r...r=2v2&faction=

https://www.arenamate.net/?region=&r...r=3v3&faction=

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../23#dataset=95

Looks like an L2P issue.

[Kaver]

I would think it is because mages are the easiest one to use as an example of since visually the specs are so distinct. Fire, Frost and Arcane. I agree that Mage is very simplified in that the school of magic has been quite different between the specs since classic. A Fire Mage use fire spells, an Arcane Mage use Arcane spells, and it's been like this forever. That's why I think that adding the other school of magic spells for the sake of adding it, is silly. If it has a good use, then by all means.

Again it's not about adding it. They are already there, you just can't use them. It's just about removing the restrictions. Currently, you can still see the abilities from the other specs but they are just grey'd out. My question is then why not just let's us be able to use them even if we're no supposed to. Would it be so horrific if we could cast a pointless Frostbolt while spec'd for Fire..

[Kralljin]

We just look at it from different angles. You ask why add it and I ask why remove it.

I didn't ask "why add it", i'm not going to repeat myself.

But for someone who just wants abilities for the sake of flavor back, one should perhaps choose another thread that doesn't reek off "i want the old talent trees back".

[Kaver]

I didn't ask "why add it", i'm not going to repeat myself.

But for someone who just wants abilities for the sake of flavor back, one should perhaps choose another thread that doesn't reek off "i want the old talent trees back".

Sorry I didn't try to put words in your mouth. But as I understand it, you just don't see any need for a Fire mage to be able to use Frostbolt. Sorry if I'm wrong.

This thread is not about getting the old talent trees back. It's just about what abilities you can and cannot use.

Right now, Blizzard says that a Fire Mage shouldn't be able to use Frostbolt.

What I'm saying is just that a Mage who focus on Fire shouldn't be able to do any significant damage with Frostbolt, but they should still be able to use it.

It's just about removing restrictions for me.

[Celarent]

The talents trees are very often bad because they fail at significantly providing a boost to your character.
Specializations are about specializing yourself, not getting just some marginal boost out of it, that's where a lot of classic talent trees fell through.

The Mage example above follows suit, if you invest 41 points into Frost / Fire, shouldn't Flamestrike / Blizzard be better than some baseline spell without any improvements?

To the second point, maybe but not necessarily. If deep investment is a no-brainer then the tree system isn't as interesting. Even top-level dials like overall damage encourage spec-only/school-only gameplay if not careful. With your Restoration example, not only are there many more talents with use outside of a min-max, PVE-centric assessment, but the numbers encourage players to think of their characters as shaman first, with some advantages in different abilities second.

That brings us back to how one views the original trees. Vanilla designer Kevin Jordan recently stated that a goal of talents was to make it possible for two of the same class to be a little different from each other; customization and individuality rather than explicit superiority. I'm sure he's said more to round out that view but it's a good idea of what the intention was. While that design can't be grafted onto live, it definitely stands on its own in its original context.

[Doffen]

Again it's not about adding it. They are already there, you just can't use them. It's just about removing the restrictions. Currently, you can still see the abilities from the other specs but they are just grey'd out. My question is then why not just let's us be able to use them even if we're no supposed to. Would it be so horrific if we could cast a pointless Frostbolt while spec'd for Fire..

Well they would have to add it to the spec again. I thought that was obvious that I mean that, to remove the restrictions. They are not there when I play Arcane, so yes, they would have to ADD it to the specs. Geez....

[Celarent]

If the Frostbolt then was unbuffed by talents, it would be nearly worhtless, but the Mage would still be able to cast it. That's how I see it at least.

Sure, but...at that rate you could allow the mage to use Mortal Strike for 0 damage because he's a 98-pound weakling. There are logistical costs, not least complications of coding, to do what you're asking. Realize that I'm trying to make your request into a practical improvement to the game. If it's "I just want it," why not have Blizzard program an RP ability that aesthetically mimics whatever you want in non-combat or NPC-only combat encounters?

[Kaver]

Sure, but...at that rate you could allow the mage to use Mortal Strike for 0 damage because he's a 98-pound weakling. There are logistical costs, not least complications of coding, to do what you're asking. Realize that I'm trying to make your request into a practical improvement to the game. If it's "I just want it," why not have Blizzard program an RP ability that aesthetically mimics whatever you want in non-combat or NPC-only combat encounters?

I think you misunderstand what I want

Right now there is an artificial restriction that says I cannot use Frostbolt while in Fire spec. I can still see Frostbolt in the Frost page, but I just cannot use it. I simply want that restriction removed. Nothing more. The Frostbolt should not be a part of the Fire rotation or anything.

Now, if that creates coding issues (which I know nothing about) then it's another story of course. I just couldn't see it cause much issue for Blizzard to remove that restriction. But I don't know that for sure.

[Firedemon]

And I for one didn't and won't do it either. Fireball would be useless for an Arcane Mage, while Living Bomb, Meteor and Scorch would be something they could use. There is the difference. Adding spells just to add spells doesn't help gameplay, while adding spells that you could actually use, do help gameplay. The difference is night and day.

That difference was there in the early expansions, where you didn't have an instant or quick cast in the arcane spec, which today you do. And living bomb was a deep fire talent anyway so it's not like you had access to it as arcane anyway.

I would've wanted access to felguard as affliction but guess what?

[Kaver]

Well they would have to add it to the spec again. I thought that was obvious that I mean that, to remove the restrictions. They are not there when I play Arcane, so yes, they would have to ADD it to the specs. Geez....

They are there visually. They are just grey'd out. As I see it they should just remove the restriction.

[Kralljin]

but the numbers encourage players to think of their characters as shaman first, with some advantages in different abilities second.

That is just one of those hollow word shells that do not mean anything.
The point i made is the fact that someone who doesn't put any points into Restoration is just marginally worse than someone who puts the majority of points into it.
You're not doing anything more "Shaman like", you just spam CH, that's it.

If you're a Healer, you're a Healer, you spam healing spells.

Specializations should feel powerful, that's the point of choice, if a choice has no meaning, it is not an engaging choice.

[Soon-TM]

Then they learn the hard way, and learn from their death.

Happens to a lot of huntards in Classic

[Aleax]

Specs should stay, this whole de-pruning because people REALLY like buttons is ridiculous.

This is not depruning, this could actually be the opposite.

This could end by giving every class only 1 "spec" instead of 3 so massive pruning, and then addying slight variations in the form of old classic tree.

One guy responded that it could work like in MoP instead. The op did not confirmed.

[Itisamuh]

Agreed. While I do prefer the modern talent selection style over the old trees of useless filler, that really has nothing to do with specs being so split up. I liked it much better when most of the class toolkit was baseline, and talent choices just added some perks. This is especially true with caster specs, where it makes no sense why I suddenly forget entire schools of magic.

[epLe]

Homogenization in MMOs has proven to be a bad idea over and over again.

No thanks.

[Alydael]

In my opinion it would be awesome if classes at max level had access to all spells/abilities. Talents should just enhance certain abilities like back in the days. So a dps Death Knight would always have both frost and unholy abilities available. We should have the option of how specialized we want to be.

So basically I want the old type of class design back... in a modern version maybe.

Basically, that's the model GW2 uses. Having played both WoW and GW2 for many years, The GW2 model is by far superior. It's not even close. You can get very creative with your build in GW2, WoW is as cookie cutter as it gets.

IMO Wow is at the point that they should even bother with those "talents." Its like the illusion of choice. They give you a choice of three, two suck- so where's the choice really? Is the choice really that they give you two options that are not as good and you can chose between "good" and "not as good?" I don't see how they consider that a "choice." Why would you want someone playing your game to have to make a choice like that?

That's pi$$ poor design. You want to offer your players a choice where all three seem great and they would love to be able to take all three!

I am going to give you a one word answer that will make it clear why it will never be: "balance."

The devs in this game love to hide behind "balance." They are too afraid to step on the toes of the end game elitists that make up about 10% of their player base. God forbid that rogue does 5% less dps that that mage! Lets make the game boring for 100% of the player base just to satisfy those few that are hung up on balance.

[Hellcleaver]

OP seems like he wants all the abilities in spellbook just so he can tell his mom, that he is a fire mage but has frostbolt and arcane blast in his spellbook.

[Celarent]

The Frostbolt should not be a part of the Fire rotation or anything.

Now, if that creates coding issues (which I know nothing about) then it's another story of course. I just couldn't see it cause much issue for Blizzard to remove that restriction. But I don't know that for sure.

It might be technically more trouble than it's worth. Don't know; but worth considering. The other issue, though, is — what about players? Suddenly they have two-and-a-half times as many abilities. In the current game's state, they need to know which ones are and aren't useful; how can they tell? Is that, without any other design change, worth it?

The point i made is the fact that someone who doesn't put any points into Restoration is just marginally worse than someone who puts the majority of points into it.
You're not doing anything more "Shaman like", you just spam CH, that's it.

Chain Heal throughout the whole original game? I may be wrong, but isn't it not available until Level 40?

[Aleax]

Agreed. While I do prefer the modern talent selection style over the old trees of useless filler, that really has nothing to do with specs being so split up. I liked it much better when most of the class toolkit was baseline, and talent choices just added some perks. This is especially true with caster specs, where it makes no sense why I suddenly forget entire schools of magic.

This will lead to one optimal playstyle (one optimal spec) instead of the current 3 we have now. I don't like it a lot. Also reason we forget spells is for convenience. For RP purposes, you can tell to your fellows you still know them and it won't be a lie.