View Poll Results: What do you think of the support role idea

Voters
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  • I love it. I want it in-game

    21 23.08%
  • What we have right now works great. But I can work with this if it is added.

    12 13.19%
  • Couldn't care less

    13 14.29%
  • Needs more work to be viable.

    20 21.98%
  • I hate it. This will ruin the game if added

    25 27.47%
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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post

    The problem is though is that even if they are completely broken OP, they still feel like shit to play and feel worthless. Its not a balancing issue its a feeling issue. Supports arent fun, some players enjoy that management playstyle but honestly that gameplay is much better on healers who get to interact with enemy action.
    I disagree. Shaman are pretty close to a full on support in classic doing f-tier damage but buffing their parties immensely. There are loads of them around. They are considering pretty fun to play too. I think a full on support would work well if they embraced that aspect rather than discarding it. However I do think it's too late for such things in this game. The community is too hellbent spending as little time as possible doing something in game to actually bring a class that doesn't show up on the meters very highly.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguinerd View Post
    Having a support role could be really cool but it won't work right now. It could work but only if Blizzard stops supporting a community obsessed with "being the best", min/maxing and those ridiculous dps/hps combat logs.

    Having to sim your damn character when you get loot is ridiculous, but right now you're almost forced to because every x% matters. It's fucked up tbh.

    Balance should be taken way less seriously, but no.. everything goes according to logs.. all that matters are numbers.

    Which is why a support won't work.
    But that's not Blizzard's fault, is the community's.

    Also, a support class would have lots of trouble to be included in 5 man content unless it brings a lot of utility or significantly boosts the two DPS toons damage... which I doubt.

  3. #63
    The Insane Boomzy's Avatar
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    Yes. Or at least something. The holy trinity has existed as the standard for far too long, and you really would think blizzard would try to change it considering how much it could potentially appeal to ""casuals""
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  4. #64
    The Lightbringer Sanguinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arakakao View Post
    But that's not Blizzard's fault, is the community's.

    Also, a support class would have lots of trouble to be included in 5 man content unless it brings a lot of utility or significantly boosts the two DPS toons damage... which I doubt.
    Yeah but now the game is being run by the guy who used to be in charge of Elitist Jerks. I really doubt he's concerned about the "RPG" in mmorpg.

    The entire fact that Blizzard supports the world first nonsense and introduction of the MDI are proof of that imo.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguinerd View Post
    Yeah but now the game is being run by the guy who used to be in charge of Elitist Jerks. I really doubt he's concerned about the "RPG" in mmorpg.

    The entire fact that Blizzard supports the world first nonsense and introduction of the MDI are proof of that imo.
    World firsts have always been fun to track, but it used to matter per boss and not by raid. It sucks that WoW has become a timed competition, it's no wonder we have Mythic+, races, and broken gear treadmills with rewards that no longer have sentimental value.

  6. #66
    Elemental Lord matheney2k's Avatar
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    Healers are supports.

  7. #67
    Take away stuns and interupts and dispels from healer and tanks. All dps get them. Dps players that use these become sought after. There's your support class that doesn't need balancing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  8. #68
    We had support classes. They were gutted.

    I’d love to see a return, but Blizzard has a bad track record of reversing course.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    No - they are not melee healers, they are normal healers who are in melee.

    I'm talking about a healer that has to be in melee with its healing target and has to heal by doing melee hits on that target.
    ...

    Like... WW monk does literally that with the right talent (when they use the flippy kick, the blackout kick is used to regen mana). I haven't played holy in a while, but i know judgement heals people, and i believe there is a talent that lets you heal from damage done when wings are up. Might be pvp only though, not sure.

    The thing is, a healer that heals only by dealing damage can't work either, unless it hits like wet noodles. Cause if it does more damage than the other healers and has all the healing perks it will make every other healer obsolete.
    If it doesn't do more damage, then everyone is gonna question what do they gain for being in melee range where there are higher risks to survivability.

    It's another of those cases that really can't work in a balanced way.

  10. #70
    The time has come and gone.

    It wouldn't work unless they overall the entire system once again to shift away from the current "Homogenized balanced for DPS charts' system they have in place today.

    And frankly, I think it would be poor for the game.


    The ONLY way I think this would work is if we have something like Classic+. Classic is where Support classes work, because characters that don't top the charts are more acceptable as DPS and Healers, provided that they are bringing something beneficial to the group. That's where Support design works best.

    Modern WoW though, it's a dead-in-the-water concept.

  11. #71
    The Lightbringer Sanguinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polybius View Post
    World firsts have always been fun to track, but it used to matter per boss and not by raid. It sucks that WoW has become a timed competition, it's no wonder we have Mythic+, races, and broken gear treadmills with rewards that no longer have sentimental value.
    Aye, couldn't agree more.

    As long as that exists there won't be any room for a support.

  12. #72
    There is already a fourth role in game it's called the leech. You spend half your time on the phone, watching tv, or looking up porn and let the rest of your group carry you.

  13. #73
    we had these support roles before, they were called hybrids. to summarize, there were reasons we don't have them anymore.

  14. #74
    No. Holy Trinity works and shouldn't be messed with in regards to WoW.

    Let new games try different approaches to it, see what works. Some MMOs even tried avoiding the holy trinity and the games just feel "off", so i don't think WoW needs a change to it.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaibhan View Post
    I disagree. Shaman are pretty close to a full on support in classic doing f-tier damage but buffing their parties immensely. There are loads of them around. They are considering pretty fun to play too. I think a full on support would work well if they embraced that aspect rather than discarding it. However I do think it's too late for such things in this game. The community is too hellbent spending as little time as possible doing something in game to actually bring a class that doesn't show up on the meters very highly.
    ok there is actually a lot to unravel with this since we are probably going to be arguing against and for completely different things here so i will try to clarify as best i can what i mean.

    I will say though that a big reason players choose those support roles is because they want to be needed. without the buffs they bring they wouldnt be brought into the group, so they are willing to do the chore of buffing to be present for content. Its like BC shadow priests, they could regenerate the healers mana and were a useful commodity for any raid, so every raid group had room for a shadow priest, inflating their value beyond their damage, so it was a guaranteed slot in a group without the stress of needing to perform optimally in dps.

    there are 2 points of view looking at this, a lot of players LOVED that Spriests had that unique ability to regen mana because it made them special and differentiated them from other dps classes. The other side though is that Spriests got a free pass and didnt need to work for their slot and players that were objectively better would miss out because Spriests were 'special' while their class brought nothing.
    Whose right? i err on the side of the other players, not because being a mana battery isnt fun design but its poor design i think to give 1 spec an important tool that is required while other specs have nothing.

    So the solution is to just kill it then? no. There are better options but they would require a huge overhaul to everything in the game, even if the effect was fairly unnoticable.
    My solution is to create subroles for dps classes that fill out those fantasies of support and front line warriors etc, without disrupting the holy trinity, but rather working within it.
    Shadow priests mana battery phase was essentailly bonus healing in the form of healers being allowed to be less efficient but more powerful with their heals, all you would need to ebrace this design is give other classes ways to join in with that gameplay, which they did, they turned it into a passive buff that paladins and another class could give also, but they way it was implemented was a passive ignorable buff that was rather boring, so in the end it wasnt worth preserving.

    Id like to see more subroles in the game, in order to get there though i think that tanks and healers need less responsibility and for much of that to be shared among the dps classes. for example i want a massive threat overhaul that caps the number of targets a tank can hold threat on (maybe 4-5) and having the rest of the group pick up on the left over units that the tank cant control. This could open up positions for off tanks in the form of tanky dps, like plate dps classes or pet classes holding aggro.

    That would make tanky dps much more valuable and give some wriggle room for other dps classes to get more utility to compensate. This could come in the form of off healing, support buffs/debuffs or crowd control.

    What is important though is that the utility doesnt increase or decrease anyones dps. DPS i think is sacred in this game as it is probably the best(or at least easiest) way to measure a players performance. if this utility breaks that then it becomes a problem. With this in mind, i think support classses should give allies damage shields or movement buffs. The off healers would also need to perform their healing without interrupting their damage output as well.

    Back to creating a support role as a 4th major role, if firmly against this. I dont think they are fun nor do i think they require skill. They are boring, skill-less roles that are required to make other players feel better. You could do much more with this by rolling that gameplay into any of the other 3 classes.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    It's another of those cases that really can't work in a balanced way.
    Well - if we are talking about the actual melee healer I'm referring to - then yes it can.

    Boycotting Blizzard is like a lactose intolerant person boycotting milk purchases to protest about cruelty to cows, then eating his hamburger whilst doing so.
    If you want to protest against China - then do something meaningful and protest against China

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    Well - if we are talking about the actual melee healer I'm referring to - then yes it can.

    "I'm talking about a healer that has to be in melee with its healing target and has to heal by doing melee hits on that target."

    This is how you described it. As you can understand, other people aren't in your head. So, if you got a solution to the balance problem i would very much like to hear it so i could perhaps agree. As i see it, i don't see how it can work, but maybe you have other angles you haven't shared.
    I cannot say the description you gave is exactly clear either. Did you mean they can only heal melees or whoever goes in melee range? Cause that would outright be a huge problem for healing dungeons with ranged DPS, so i assumed you couldn't posibly mean that. *shrugs*
    Last edited by Swnem; 2019-10-22 at 04:21 AM.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    So, if you got a solution to the balance problem i would very much like to hear it so i could perhaps agree. As i see it, i don't see how it can work, but maybe you have other angles you haven't shared.
    The balance situation is the same as that for melee vs ranged dps.

    How do you balance a rogue dps vs a mage dps ?

    Same process to balance a melee hps vs a ranged hps.

    Boycotting Blizzard is like a lactose intolerant person boycotting milk purchases to protest about cruelty to cows, then eating his hamburger whilst doing so.
    If you want to protest against China - then do something meaningful and protest against China

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by zhero View Post
    we had these support roles before, they were called hybrids. to summarize, there were reasons we don't have them anymore.
    Yes! This!

    I'm glad some people still remember.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    The balance situation is the same as that for melee vs ranged dps.

    How do you balance a rogue dps vs a mage dps ?

    Same process to balance a melee hps vs a ranged hps.
    Err no. Cause DPS only output DPS. Healers output healing and DPS.

    So, i talked about this, but i will try again. If you got a healer staying at range that does the same healing and damage from range as a healer that has to stand in melee and has to hit the target to heal, why exactly would someone take the melee guy? Even if mechanicly it were to work in balanced way, no one would want a healer to go crowd melee range even more.
    But hey... guess we gotta disagree on this one. Cause this would be very difficult to pull off mechanicly anyways, much less balance wise.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2019-10-22 at 04:33 AM.

  20. #80
    The problem with support roles is they are either too powerful or worthless.

    Let's say you made it so all the buffs and debuffs - Stamina, Attack Power, Curse of whatever, mark of chaos, int buff, etc - were all handled by one class. Ok, now you just bring one of them and done. End of story.

    Now let's say you give them a stacking buff, something like increases the haste/crit/vers/whatever by X amount for X seconds. If it's just a single buff then you only need one, if it's a stacking buff then you're best off just filling the entire raid with the buffing character because their buff will be too good.

    Support is an awesome idea, but it's pretty much impossible to balance.

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