Time for a new class role? (Or adding to the Holy Trinity)

[Loveliest]

Having a support role could be really cool but it won't work right now. It could work but only if Blizzard stops supporting a community obsessed with "being the best", min/maxing and those ridiculous dps/hps combat logs.

Support... the development of theorycrafting and min-maxing was inevitable with the increased popularity. The only design decision they could make for this to not be a thing would have been to keep all raids at MC-difficulty level. Which is to say "raid is easy enough that we can take almost anyone since we won't really fill it with 40 decent people anyway".
Since people started getting better and playing smarter and realizing some classes do better than others, all you could do design-wise was increase the difficulty, make it tighter, make more complex mechanics. Because of these changes - playing randomly whatever you wanted just wouldn't cut it. And because of this, reading up on how to get better became a thing. And it became a thing pretty early too, it's been over a decade, this isn't a "nowadays issue".
The only more recent thing, maybe since MoP (which is still like 6 years old), is logs becoming increasingly popular as "global dps meters" and raid leaders misusing them to judge performance and even award loot. But that's not really a design thing, it's people's fault for being limited and not understanding "context".

[Protean]

Having a support role could be really cool but it won't work right now. It could work but only if Blizzard stops supporting a community obsessed with "being the best", min/maxing and those ridiculous dps/hps combat logs.

Having to sim your damn character when you get loot is ridiculous, but right now you're almost forced to because every x% matters. It's fucked up tbh.

Balance should be taken way less seriously, but no.. everything goes according to logs.. all that matters are numbers.

Which is why a support won't work.

I think the real problem is how invested people are in being good. I do it myself in WoW, although to a lesser extent since discovering the art of not caring that much.

Whenever I play other games, Neverwinter (the mmo), borderlands etc I don't give two shits about dps, just that I'm having fun. Same in WoW classic. Some of these games have the option to min/max but it's not a requirement for having fun.

[Aleax]

I am not a fan of the Holy trinity to begin with, I'd have liked body blocking instead, it just makes more sense to me.

That being said support role is a niche, most players don't like this role at all. It won't easily work, if at all.

[Swnem]

Before they add a new class role, the need to fully play out the existing ones.

Currently the two combinations not currently at play are:

* Melee (non mana) healer
* Ranged (mana) tank

Not sure if the second one can be done in WoW, but the first one would involve some awesome gameplay and high skill caps.

Ranged tanks are not possible, as you point out. They are only possible in a game where there are only ranged mobs. That game is not WoW. To be able to fulfill the tank role in all content, the tank needs to be able to deal with the melee mobs after wich you drag them to the ranged mobs so they get in the AoE bubble.
Ranged tank is not something that makes sense. Only a ranged DPS can offer that utility, but they cannot offer the ranged tank as a tank role. It is just not possible. Tanks need to act in melee as long as there are melee mobs in the game.

Melee healer actually already exists with WW monk and Holy paladin.

[Qnubi]

Support classes won't work with the current player base. Support classes can't work in the current game design (no longer rpg but action button smashing game).

You don't need supporters in 5m dungeons (and so on, in M+), you don't need supporters in Mythic raids, you already have supporters in PvP (for example FC, TC).

Do you even read what you write? xD

[PenguinChan]

The support role should've been in the game since release, and honestly Blizzard fucked up by removing supportive type specs anyways. But I doubt they'll ever add it in now, as clearly many people find it useless or harmful. Which personally, I find funny as fuck - the support role has succeeded in every single game it was put into. The issue is just getting people to not freak out about it from being new.

RIFT is an excellent example of the support role too. Sadly that game went into the dumpster due to awful and easily avoidable reasons.

[Lodreh]

Support is not a very exciting role. The reason people have called Tank, Healer, DPS the Holy Trinity is because it gives you something specific to do. Support (Buff/ Debuff) is currently included in DPS classes so they can optimize DPS. If you pulled that out then most of the DPS classes would lose their uniqueness. In short it's not a great enough benefit for what we would lose.

[horbindr]

if they add 4th specs (which they wont) then it might be doable since then you can just add 6 support specs into the game at once. it will never work if it's just 1-2 specs added. but even then there are just so many problems you would have to deal with to add them into the existing game that it would just become a watered down version.

[schwarzkopf]

Melee healer actually already exists with WW monk and Holy paladin.

No - they are not melee healers, they are normal healers who are in melee.

I'm talking about a healer that has to be in melee with its healing target and has to heal by doing melee hits on that target.

[keygy]

Having the role support is not the definition of Hybrid that's a misconception or wrong statement because wow classic, when certain specs where mediocre at best.

The true support role its something like bard in FFXIV a dps for ex that can give buffs very important, like mana or damage, there are other games that have supporters and debuffers for ex.

For me this can be a huge change to the meta of the game but i dont think blizzard gonna jump in this scenario, because we are not talking about a class balance rework how its seems that gonna happen in 9.0, this a fucking big overhaul of every gameplay system of the game, basically its like deleting all systems that are implemented in the last 15 years send it to the trash and made a new one from scratch.

Dont think blizzard gonna be that agressive with 9.0 changes.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Having the role support is not the definition of Hybrid that's a misconception or wrong statement because wow classic, when certain specs where mediocre at best.

The true support role its something like bard in FFXIV a dps for ex that can give buffs very important, like mana or damage, there are other games that have supporters and debuffers for ex.

I generally agree, but I would like to add that the 5.0 bard is no longer that much of a support class. You still have abiltities to that effect, but is has been heavily neutered.

[keygy]

I generally agree, but I would like to add that the 5.0 bard is no longer that much of a support class. You still have abiltities to that effect, but is has been heavily neutered.

:/ so sad, but my post was about the real support, but nevertheless in reality for me what i want its more of a debuffer/buffer role.

[Kaibhan]

The problem is though is that even if they are completely broken OP, they still feel like shit to play and feel worthless. Its not a balancing issue its a feeling issue. Supports arent fun, some players enjoy that management playstyle but honestly that gameplay is much better on healers who get to interact with enemy action.

I disagree. Shaman are pretty close to a full on support in classic doing f-tier damage but buffing their parties immensely. There are loads of them around. They are considering pretty fun to play too. I think a full on support would work well if they embraced that aspect rather than discarding it. However I do think it's too late for such things in this game. The community is too hellbent spending as little time as possible doing something in game to actually bring a class that doesn't show up on the meters very highly.

[Arakakao]

Having a support role could be really cool but it won't work right now. It could work but only if Blizzard stops supporting a community obsessed with "being the best", min/maxing and those ridiculous dps/hps combat logs.

Having to sim your damn character when you get loot is ridiculous, but right now you're almost forced to because every x% matters. It's fucked up tbh.

Balance should be taken way less seriously, but no.. everything goes according to logs.. all that matters are numbers.

Which is why a support won't work.

But that's not Blizzard's fault, is the community's.

Also, a support class would have lots of trouble to be included in 5 man content unless it brings a lot of utility or significantly boosts the two DPS toons damage... which I doubt.

[Sanguinerd]

But that's not Blizzard's fault, is the community's.

Also, a support class would have lots of trouble to be included in 5 man content unless it brings a lot of utility or significantly boosts the two DPS toons damage... which I doubt.

Yeah but now the game is being run by the guy who used to be in charge of Elitist Jerks. I really doubt he's concerned about the "RPG" in mmorpg.

The entire fact that Blizzard supports the world first nonsense and introduction of the MDI are proof of that imo.

[Polybius]

Yeah but now the game is being run by the guy who used to be in charge of Elitist Jerks. I really doubt he's concerned about the "RPG" in mmorpg.

The entire fact that Blizzard supports the world first nonsense and introduction of the MDI are proof of that imo.

World firsts have always been fun to track, but it used to matter per boss and not by raid. It sucks that WoW has become a timed competition, it's no wonder we have Mythic+, races, and broken gear treadmills with rewards that no longer have sentimental value.

[munkeyinorbit]

Take away stuns and interupts and dispels from healer and tanks. All dps get them. Dps players that use these become sought after. There's your support class that doesn't need balancing.

[draugril]

We had support classes. They were gutted.

I’d love to see a return, but Blizzard has a bad track record of reversing course.

[Swnem]

No - they are not melee healers, they are normal healers who are in melee.

I'm talking about a healer that has to be in melee with its healing target and has to heal by doing melee hits on that target.

...

Like... WW monk does literally that with the right talent (when they use the flippy kick, the blackout kick is used to regen mana). I haven't played holy in a while, but i know judgement heals people, and i believe there is a talent that lets you heal from damage done when wings are up. Might be pvp only though, not sure.

The thing is, a healer that heals only by dealing damage can't work either, unless it hits like wet noodles. Cause if it does more damage than the other healers and has all the healing perks it will make every other healer obsolete.
If it doesn't do more damage, then everyone is gonna question what do they gain for being in melee range where there are higher risks to survivability.

It's another of those cases that really can't work in a balanced way.

[Triceron]

The time has come and gone.

It wouldn't work unless they overall the entire system once again to shift away from the current "Homogenized balanced for DPS charts' system they have in place today.

And frankly, I think it would be poor for the game.


The ONLY way I think this would work is if we have something like Classic+. Classic is where Support classes work, because characters that don't top the charts are more acceptable as DPS and Healers, provided that they are bringing something beneficial to the group. That's where Support design works best.

Modern WoW though, it's a dead-in-the-water concept.