I understand WHY people love TBC, but....

[Sariengrey]

People need to stop using the word Autistic to describe something they think is stupid, because you know what?...the only one who looks stupid is you.
There are so many terms used in the mmo community this way its appalling.
I am actually surprised mmo-champ lets that kind of nonsense continue
Grow up

[Hinastorm]

WoW is a PvE game, with PvP as a side option. It was designed that way.

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Part of the reason Classic is so popular is because it is so different from Retail. TBC and WOTLK share a lot in common with retail. Raid logging in TBC is what happens on private servers. Classic is like a totally different MMO. In TBC just like BFA you can use flying mounts, do arena, or heroic dungeons. You can run around in a neutral city. In Vanilla Alliance and Horde are KOS in Org/SW. Why play TBC over BFA when you can't transmog.

Wrath has alot in common with retail, BC is more like an enhanced version of classic.

This is from a pve perspective though, since this is a pve game.

[SirCowdog]

Wrath has alot in common with retail.

How so? LFD wasn't introduced until almost the end of the expansion. Other than that I can't think of many other similarities. There's no M+. Rep grinds are actually reasonable via the tabard system. Dungeons had badges of justice, and IIRC heroics had something similar. Raids used the 10/25 man system, and later added heroic versions and hard modes with Ulduar.

The open world of WOTLK has static level ranges, and Wintergrasp. Whereas retail has no real open world pvp zone(Battle for Nazjatar is a joke due to phasting, something else wotlk doesn't have). WotLK also actually has a use for crafting, unlike retail.

I'm not really seeing many similarities here, so maybe you can expand on what you meant?

Just an aside: If Blizzard sets the precedent of re-releasing expansions in order for Classic, going into TBC next, followed by WOTLK, I might seriously consider buying a 6 month sub for the first time in my 15 years of playing wow on and off. I would be more excited for TBC and WotLK than whatever the next retail expansion ends up being.

[rohoz]

How so? LFD wasn't introduced until almost the end of the expansion. Other than that I can't think of many other similarities. There's no M+. Rep grinds are actually reasonable via the tabard system. Dungeons had badges of justice, and IIRC heroics had something similar. Raids used the 10/25 man system, and later added heroic versions and hard modes with Ulduar.

The open world of WOTLK has static level ranges, and Wintergrasp. Whereas retail has no real open world pvp zone(Battle for Nazjatar is a joke due to phasting, something else wotlk doesn't have). WotLK also actually has a use for crafting, unlike retail.

I'm not really seeing many similarities here, so maybe you can expand on what you meant?

It's actually amazing how wrong you are, constantly.

Just throwing it out there that there's more pvp in cta zones than in blackrock mountain on a high pop classic server.

[Stormspellz]

[FONT=Arial Black]
The better arena got, the more classes all became the same, which breaks and ruins larger forms of pvp and the "fun factor" and uniqueness of classes. The original designers knew this would happen. Fast forward and we now have unkillable healers when crosshealing happens in a BG or a 1 v 1 happens due to every class having to all have the same CC and chains. PvP outside of 3 v 3 is now GARBAGE. Healers HAVE to be OP in all other scenarios, just so a failed esport can continue..

positioning being important? oh dare it!! and arena wasn't a mistake - what they said was how they implemented it was a mistake, that they didn't build from the ground up with rated pvp in mind, was the mistake

the rest of your complaint gets summed up with- git gud. Don't blame current horrible game play on arena being added 13 years ago. Blame the the devs for dumping down the game into the ground.

[Kithelle]

WoW is a PvE game, with PvP as a side option. It was designed that way.

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Wrath has alot in common with retail, BC is more like an enhanced version of classic.

This is from a pve perspective though, since this is a pve game.

Except neither of those are true "shrugs"

Wrath has very little common with Retail except for a few things like heroics.

BC changed so much from Vanilla...red headed step specs were playable in BC, PvP was changed with resilience and arena was added. Flying...actual world PvP objectives....SO much changed.

[Beerplz]

TBC is a VERY good PVE game and sucks at everything else. If raiding was the primary thing you did in WoW you usually loved it. Everything I say past here doesn't matter to you, because TBC might be the best raid/pve game ever made for a "raiding is all that matters" player. If PVE wasn't your primary focus, you can easily view it as highly overrated and point out that it started many of the systems and things that would eventually destroy WoW as we knew it.

Flying destroyed world pvp. Instantly. Nothing more to say about that.

Arena gear/arena led to the changes that destroyed Alterac Valley. ALL players gravitated towards the honor per minute idea to get the resilience gear they needed to start arena, instead of just having fun. Take the mentally ill repeat rank 14 grinders and give that mindset to ALL the players and that is what BG's became. Keep in mind that AV was cleverly designed to get pve players into pvp and that is ceased to exist as intended in TBC and the playerbase became very split with pvp and pve players. This got worse every expansion and now players who used to all be one big, awesome community are split into little groups.

Professions mean very little in pvp because world pvp is dead. Why bother. Rocketboots could be used if I remember right in arena, but could backfire. Hand enchants I think could be used to, but it really didn't matter. I hated arena and tried to block out every time I would get myself or someone else the 1850 weapon. The rest was a waste of time. I also usually played double dps because running around a pole for a long time was awful.

Arena becomes the barometer for everything, due to a dumb rating that autistic kids and streamers who helped ruin WoW, can brag about as they run around a pole with a healer in most comps (other than spriest, rogue, mage). Very few comps are viable and the pvp is awful and the makers of the original WoW said arena was a mistake.
engadget.com/2009/11/13/blizzard-arenas-were-a-mistake/[/url]

The better arena got, the more classes all became the same, which breaks and ruins larger forms of pvp and the "fun factor" and uniqueness of classes. The original designers knew this would happen. Fast forward and we now have unkillable healers when crosshealing happens in a BG or a 1 v 1 happens due to every class having to all have the same CC and chains. PvP outside of 3 v 3 is now GARBAGE. Healers HAVE to be OP in all other scenarios, just so a failed esport can continue.

Segregation of the playerbase happens for the first time with Arena and Heroics. This was not that big a problem in TBC because you only had heroic dungeons and one difficulty of raids. Now we have LFR, normal, heroic, mythic, mythic plus. It's just stupid.

Dailies start as a big thing in TBC. This is what happens when you break world pvp and segregate the playerbase to cater to the "eltiist jerks" (who now run WoW btw). You need dumbed down repeatable, zombie like content for the "casuals" or really nice people who weren't that great mechanically, who actually have very little to do in modern WoW. They eventually get bored/quit and all you are left with in the modern game is LFR/daily zombies who listen to streamers they are so bored and the 1 percent that no one could stand to be around in vanilla.

In vanilla these mechanically deficient players could be "carried" but no one said carried because people weren't all aholes and they could contribute big time to a guild through professions, farming, running 5 mans and gearing up offtanks and dps. They could also pvp with you, world pvp, have consumables that gave them an edge etc. Modern WoW literally separates you from people you grew up playing this game with and rewards you for abandoning them with progression. Vanilla never did that.

People claim vanilla was not casual friendly. That's complete BS. It had the most to do for casual players of any expansion. Everything took time, but you always had something to do.

TLDR. TBC introduced too many catch up systems, flying killed world pvp, arena killed classes being unique and broke all other forums of pvp except 3 v 3, segregation of pve content got out of control eventually and further led to class homogenization, it was the first implemenation of a group finder (no one used it), dailies replaced organic pvp and farming content, old world is now useless.

Well classic version of world PvP is mindlessly boooooring so there's that :P

[arkanon]

[FONT=Arial Black]

Flying destroyed world pvp. Instantly. Nothing more to say about that.

Seems to me thats the sort of thing someone says when they know their claim is completely baseless.

[kamuimac]

How so? LFD wasn't introduced until almost the end of the expansion. Other than that I can't think of many other similarities. There's no M+. Rep grinds are actually reasonable via the tabard system. Dungeons had badges of justice, and IIRC heroics had something similar. Raids used the 10/25 man system, and later added heroic versions and hard modes with Ulduar.

The open world of WOTLK has static level ranges, and Wintergrasp. Whereas retail has no real open world pvp zone(Battle for Nazjatar is a joke due to phasting, something else wotlk doesn't have). WotLK also actually has a use for crafting, unlike retail.

I'm not really seeing many similarities here, so maybe you can expand on what you meant?

Just an aside: If Blizzard sets the precedent of re-releasing expansions in order for Classic, going into TBC next, followed by WOTLK, I might seriously consider buying a 6 month sub for the first time in my 15 years of playing wow on and off. I would be more excited for TBC and WotLK than whatever the next retail expansion ends up being.

it all depends what will happen in icoming 3 months.

they are already switching populatio rates to highest point weekly because otherwise it would start to show how many people leave game.

they will most likely take subs data from first 6 months and then decide whether legacy servers are financialy viable in long run .

[Askyl]

Not sure about you but I did a hell lot of W-PvP in TBC.

[SirCowdog]

it all depends what will happen in icoming 3 months.

they are already switching populatio rates to highest point weekly because otherwise it would start to show how many people leave game.

they will most likely take subs data from first 6 months and then decide whether legacy servers are financialy viable in long run .

Let's be real here. Given the massive influx of players trying classic, whether they stay or not, I'd say that the investment of time and money to do it has paid off. And now that they have all the formulas and systems to re-create older versions of the game, a TBC launch would be an even better risk/reward prospect.

Again, even if players didn't stay for TBC, the spike in players returning or even subbing for a short amount of time would make it worthwhile for Blizzard. The ONLY way I see this not being the case is if they release some kind of new MMORPG title that isn't WOW, and they don't want to compete with themselves. That seems unlikely, however.

[Charge me Doctor]

Rep grinds are actually reasonable via the tabard system.

I will never consider running dungeons ad nauseum a "reasonable" system for anything. It's less fun version of M+, with differences like - dungeons stays the fucking same and gives you nothing but moving a progress bar on your rep tab

[Noxina]

There is no denying the fact that TBC was Vanilla 2.0. They took every good aspect of Vanilla, polished it and made TBC. Only downside I'd say was flying, but I've always been negative about flying.

[SirCowdog]

I will never consider running dungeons ad nauseum a "reasonable" system for anything. It's less fun version of M+, with differences like - dungeons stays the fucking same and gives you nothing but moving a progress bar on your rep tab

You're not running the dungeon just for rep though. You have to remember that in WotLK dungeons and heroics still had static loot lists, and also used Justice/Valor badges. You were going to run them for your daily J/V points, or while targeting specific pieces of gear. The rep comes naturally to augment daily quests and daily heroic lockout.

And now that I think about it, IIRC running normal dungeons would stop giving rep past honored, and you had to step up to heroic. Which, of course, has a daily lockout.

The Tabard system for reps was not ever meant to be a primary source of reputation, but a way to fill in the gaps that you might have missed in other places. It's sort of like complaining that you can't make a good sandwich out of just peanut butter when you refuse to use bread or jelly.

[lagiacrux]

Not sure about you but I did a hell lot of W-PvP in TBC.

so much fun when you still had to queue arena in nagrand
many queues were missed because you couldnt join while incombat.

[Whoopax]

I cant wait for them to release tbc just for it to die after couple of months when people realize how bad tbc actually is.

Guys there is actually reason why every TBC project in past 5 years died in 2 3 months, while vanilla and wotlk peaked with population. ( and no its not because of blizzard)

[rohoz]

You're not running the dungeon just for rep though. You have to remember that in WotLK dungeons and heroics still had static loot lists, and also used Justice/Valor badges. You were going to run them for your daily J/V points, or while targeting specific pieces of gear. The rep comes naturally to augment daily quests and daily heroic lockout.

And now that I think about it, IIRC running normal dungeons would stop giving rep past honored, and you had to step up to heroic. Which, of course, has a daily lockout.

The Tabard system for reps was not ever meant to be a primary source of reputation, but a way to fill in the gaps that you might have missed in other places. It's sort of like complaining that you can't make a good sandwich out of just peanut butter when you refuse to use bread or jelly.

except that in practice people just put on the tabard whenever they acquired it and mindlessly farmed. That's why sons of hodir, the only rep that really mattered, had no tabard. They were aware it was a joke from day one.

[Will]

I cant wait for them to release tbc just for it to die after couple of months when people realize how bad tbc actually is.

Guys there is actually reason why every TBC project in past 5 years died in 2 3 months, while vanilla and wotlk peaked with population. ( and no its not because of blizzard)

You've spent this entire thread basically ignoring what people tell you and instead spouting the same tired old rhetoric.

You're not really here to discuss and learn, are you? You're here to use the thread as your own personal playground for writing nonsense.

Vanilla didn't peak with population and never has, and any idiot can read data to see that claim is bullshit. The game's only had one sub count peak and that was in WotLK.

Why do you hate TBC so freaking much that you feel the need to trash talk it daily? Did you lose a family member or something because of TBC?

[Daffan]

TBC is ruined because of IoQ era welfare. The End.

Kewl your class plays better, in all that trivialized & obsolete content cuz you got t6 equiv from badges lel

[Rigald]

You've spent this entire thread basically ignoring what people tell you and instead spouting the same tired old rhetoric.

You're not really here to discuss and learn, are you? You're here to use the thread as your own personal playground for writing nonsense.

Vanilla didn't peak with population and never has, and any idiot can read data to see that claim is bullshit. The game's only had one sub count peak and that was in WotLK.

Why do you hate TBC so freaking much that you feel the need to trash talk it daily? Did you lose a family member or something because of TBC?

genuinely wondering the same thing, this has up to 14 pages now... surely it's getting boring even for him. At least you getting a few likes on twitter when you are trying to be some kind of "agent provocateur" but it seems rather a waste of time on here