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  1. #361
    Herald of the Titans Vorkreist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whoopax View Post
    Keep telling yourself that when the TBC private out there is better scripted than any other era of WoW. It's vanilla content is better than vanilla servers and it still can't keep a steady population of end game players. People level, remember TBC sucks and is an endless PVE grind and nothing more and quit.
    I don't need to tell myself anything. I'm not the one posting troll garbage.
    "I just don't want to pay taxes." - Bobby Kotick

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Didly View Post
    People are already leaving Classic... the proposal is to split the community further into Classic / TBC servers? Then eventually we'll have "classic" BFA?
    There are so many wrong things with this common reply that it hurts:
    (1) What's with this "People are already leaving Classic" meme? Wasn't it, like, the whole point behind layering etc. that a significant portion of the playerbase would be leaving the game? I don't know what server you play on, but my server (Mirage Raceway, ftr) is so full of ppl that it's nearly impossible to find an empty questing ground beyond lvl 40, or an empty farming zone at high levels - even outside peak hours or weekends. If anything, there are still way too many people on most Classic servers right now.
    (2) How many times could you split the Classic playerbase and still end up with enough ppl to keep an expansion alive? I've seen bustling pservers with a population that's a 1/20th of Classic, or even less. And that's just considering one region.
    (3) Most importantly, what makes you think that, without TBC, people will keep playing Classic forever? Whether TBC is released or not, the population split WILL happen - in the sense that a sizable amount of players will leave, either to return to (TBC/WotLK) pservers or to quit the game altogether. Releasing TBC is not a way to split the playerbase, but to try and retain some of those potential leavers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whoopax View Post
    Keep telling yourself that when the TBC private out there is better scripted than any other era of WoW. It's vanilla content is better than vanilla servers and it still can't keep a steady population of end game players. People level, remember TBC sucks and is an endless PVE grind and nothing more and quit.
    You know what's funny? That people keep using the "pserver population" argument unironically, even after Classic launch, phase 2, BGs etc. What else do you need to realize that the vast majority of Classic players are not former pserver players and that demographic dynamics of Classic hardly reflect what we've seen on pservers?

    And besides, would the quality of Vanilla content in a TBC server help keeping players?

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Whoopax View Post
    TBC is a VERY good PVE game and [then Whoopax said a bunch of irrelevant things].
    WoW is a PvE game, not a PvP game. TBC was the pinnacle of WoW and was near perfect.

  4. #364

  5. #365
    "Flying destroyed world PVP" its hard to destroy thing that really never exists. World PVP in vanilla and in general was more like episodes not real thing. At classic all screams OMG WPVP HORDE PWNED ALLY. Yes that was episode till bg`s went out. Same was in vanilla times. Ppl was doing wpvp raids beacause they was just bored or meanwhile grouping up the raid for instance (kargath etc.)

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarator8 View Post
    There are so many wrong things with this common reply that it hurts:
    (1) What's with this "People are already leaving Classic" meme? Wasn't it, like, the whole point behind layering etc. that a significant portion of the playerbase would be leaving the game? I don't know what server you play on, but my server (Mirage Raceway, ftr) is so full of ppl that it's nearly impossible to find an empty questing ground beyond lvl 40, or an empty farming zone at high levels - even outside peak hours or weekends. If anything, there are still way too many people on most Classic servers right now.
    (2) How many times could you split the Classic playerbase and still end up with enough ppl to keep an expansion alive? I've seen bustling pservers with a population that's a 1/20th of Classic, or even less. And that's just considering one region.
    (3) Most importantly, what makes you think that, without TBC, people will keep playing Classic forever? Whether TBC is released or not, the population split WILL happen - in the sense that a sizable amount of players will leave, either to return to (TBC/WotLK) pservers or to quit the game altogether. Releasing TBC is not a way to split the playerbase, but to try and retain some of those potential leavers.



    You know what's funny? That people keep using the "pserver population" argument unironically, even after Classic launch, phase 2, BGs etc. What else do you need to realize that the vast majority of Classic players are not former pserver players and that demographic dynamics of Classic hardly reflect what we've seen on pservers?

    And besides, would the quality of Vanilla content in a TBC server help keeping players?
    Agree with most things said here. Hadn't considered the point about folks eventually leaving classic without more content... it WILL happen... I think that makes "expansion re-play" servers all the more inevitable.

    We'll have:
    Classic Vanilla
    Expansion re-run
    Retail

    Eventually the expansion re-run either forks and doesn't have all the systems/etc that folks don't like (appreciate there's plenty that do, not picking fights) or gets merged back into retail.
    Preference wise, expansions with LFG/LFR never being a thing. Community absolutely makes or breaks wow, making it a faceless MMO... (obviously imo) rather detracts from that.

    Hello to a fellow mirage raceway inhabitant.

    I'd suggest anyone doubting classics appeal log in and head to IF/SW around 7-8pm on a Sunday. It's LITERALLY the IF/SW of old populations wise. Certainly on mirage raceway Alliance anyway.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    unpopular opinion:

    TBC was one of my most hated expansions of all time. even though I was with a hardcore guild & cleared everything except late bosses in sunwell. The world felt empty & boring.

    I just hope blizzard don't force me to move my character to TBC.
    Most people seem to have the... apparently obvious (maybe it's not but... seems the most logical way to please everyone) thought of there being an option to COPY your vanilla character to a "expansions due" server. You still keep your vanilla, you have all that stuff again on a "new" expansion server. I must have spoken to 10-15 ppl about "the awesome idea I saw for expansion servers" and almost everyone had the same though already.

    Those that want vanilla forever - sorted, minus a little guild re-making as ppl "leave" for expansions (but they'd have maybe stopped anyway after naxx without new content).
    Those that want expansions - copy characters to expansion server of choice (at about the sorta timeframe relative to launch as the name reservation was for classic). Maybe have it run a month before pre-launch events/etc so folks have time to guild up again, run a little naxx together to get a solid raid team...
    Those that want retail - continue as before.

    It suits everyone, Blizzard gets the most subs out of it this way too... unless they have a clever option no-one's though of yet, it seems the most likely.
    Last edited by mercutiouk; 2019-12-31 at 02:42 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille
    I knew it would be useful to be french at some point.
    Quote Originally Posted by xxAkirhaxx
    just get a mac. It's like sleeping with a fat chick to avoid STD's.

  7. #367
    I hope all servers will transition into TBC so every server is basically a TBC server.

    Then they can open up X number of servers with free transfers before the TBC release and close the transfers the day before launch that will simply stay on classic forever for those who prefer that with their characters.
    Last edited by Essem; 2019-12-31 at 02:57 PM.

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by Essem View Post
    I hope all servers will transition into TBC so every server is basically a TBC server.

    Then they can open up X number of servers with free transfers before the TBC release and close the transfers the day before launch that will simply stay on classic forever for those who prefer that with their characters.
    This works too... either way I guess. I figure as classic as it sits now was made to attract the folks wanting classic... to move on to expansions it seems fairer the folks that decide to go that way are the ones to move. Either way will cause some fracturing of guilds/etc but with everyone in a similar position (having groups of people "with them" but not necessarily enough for a full guild compliment) should make it ok.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille
    I knew it would be useful to be french at some point.
    Quote Originally Posted by xxAkirhaxx
    just get a mac. It's like sleeping with a fat chick to avoid STD's.

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    I totally understand that it will probably go the way you described. But my problem is that this will lead players to be shoved into corners they are comfortable with. we will at some point have: WM on, WM off, classic, classic+, TBC, TBC+, etc....

    This is mainly why I strongly don't want further division of playerbase.
    A fair point someone else made in another thread...

    Eventually, once Naxx drops and that content is done to death, I see classic players declining a bit. Some might go (back) to retail, some will (re)quit.
    You'll (quite probably) end up with... roughly similar numbers in classic and retail without the expansions again, the rest... you probably either loose them or give them the expansions that put WoW on the map again.

    You can't force classic folks into expansions cos.... many wanted to play endless classic, it was launched as classic so... they'd feel rightly aggrieved to be forced into expansions they didn't want to play.

    You equally can't expect folks who enjoyed classic but don't wish to min/max to perfect characters of every class endlessly with no "future" and just the same sandbox to stick around.

    The best way to please everyone is an option to copy to a "expansions" server (of their choice so... maybe they can link up with friends they re-discovered from being logged in to wow again who ended up rolling on different classic servers), free copy to retail with suitably adjusted stat squish/etc (maybe?) and free realm migrations for classic only folks to group into good numbers on fewer servers so their realms stay happy and vibrant. Everyone gets what they want, numbers should stay good enough in each niche, Blizz gets money from subs to hopefully steer a good path going forward with retail.
    Last edited by mercutiouk; 2019-12-31 at 05:14 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille
    I knew it would be useful to be french at some point.
    Quote Originally Posted by xxAkirhaxx
    just get a mac. It's like sleeping with a fat chick to avoid STD's.

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by mercutiouk View Post
    Eventually the expansion re-run either forks and doesn't have all the systems/etc that folks don't like (appreciate there's plenty that do, not picking fights) or gets merged back into retail.
    Why would expansion servers need to be "forked", as you say? As long as people keep playing them, I don't see the issue. I've personally seen TBC and WotLK servers running on sustainable (2000+ concurrently online) numbers for years on the same 2.4.3/3.3.5 patch.

    If anything, both TBC and WotLK are much more functional in a "perpetual" state than Classic. PvE-wise, Naxxramas stretches guilds too thin in terms of gear and content, making death spirals a constant threat and imploding guilds an unfortunately common occurrence. Meanwhile, PvP-wise, Naxx gear breaks balance in many ways, turning the game into rocket-tag gameplay basically.

    On the other hand, TBC and especially WotLK have smaller raid sizes and catch up mechanisms that make it possible to replace leavers even with freshly new recruits and get the latter reasonably geared in a much smaller timeframe. And PvP-wise, the existence of resilience acts as a buffer against the degeneration of offensive potential that nonetheless is seen in these late patches - but nowhere to the extent it's seen in Classic.

    In the end, time will tell. One thing for sure is, only Classic pservers have resorted to constant resets and patch progressions over the last years, from what I've seen.

  11. #371
    TBC is superior to vanilla in every way, the only things I didn't like about TBC was tossing away pvp ranks, and the sidelining of battlegrounds for arena, in every other way TBC was vanilla perfected.

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarator8 View Post
    Why would expansion servers need to be "forked", as you say? As long as people keep playing them, I don't see the issue. I've personally seen TBC and WotLK servers running on sustainable (2000+ concurrently online) numbers for years on the same 2.4.3/3.3.5 patch.

    If anything, both TBC and WotLK are much more functional in a "perpetual" state than Classic. PvE-wise, Naxxramas stretches guilds too thin in terms of gear and content, making death spirals a constant threat and imploding guilds an unfortunately common occurrence. Meanwhile, PvP-wise, Naxx gear breaks balance in many ways, turning the game into rocket-tag gameplay basically.

    On the other hand, TBC and especially WotLK have smaller raid sizes and catch up mechanisms that make it possible to replace leavers even with freshly new recruits and get the latter reasonably geared in a much smaller timeframe. And PvP-wise, the existence of resilience acts as a buffer against the degeneration of offensive potential that nonetheless is seen in these late patches - but nowhere to the extent it's seen in Classic.

    In the end, time will tell. One thing for sure is, only Classic pservers have resorted to constant resets and patch progressions over the last years, from what I've seen.
    The "fork" isn't a needed. It's probably VERY personal opinion and... I'm sure I was perfectly happy the first time through with LFG/LFR but... I can't help thinking they were pretty key in the eventual demise of WoW. At the point folks were able to just "do their own thing" with little interaction or player rep being needed... You've lost a lot of the main ingredient in WoW (the people and guild communities). At the point folks don't need to "play nice" with people you get an increasingly faceless, toxic community that puts people off.

    I don't think Cata or MoP were particularly bad but... Wrath was still WoW's peak. Was that due to story/mechanics/community is totally open to debate but... I'd bet my ass at least some of it was community. A "fork" from the original expansion mechanics around those key bits could well make a difference.

    Equally, I'd play the hell out of every expansion again so... maybe my opinion doesn't really matter.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurluas View Post
    TBC is superior to vanilla in every way, the only things I didn't like about TBC was tossing away pvp ranks, and the sidelining of battlegrounds for arena, in every other way TBC was vanilla perfected.
    Yeah, I'd play the ass off TBC with rated BG's as well.
    The most fun I've had in WoW was raid leading progress and leading RBG's to 2100ish (could never quite crack 2200).
    I... kinda want the final form death knight from Wrath tho so... a Wrath expansion based on 3.xx (I dunno what it went to) with DK's "fixed" from day 1 will make me amazingly happy.

    I didn't roll my Worgen DK till... mid cata, I think. Pretty much benched every other character once I got going on that. PERFECT play style for what I liked.

    When did we get the multi-spec options? I think that was TBC? Edit: Urgh, 3.1. Yeah, I need Wrath, STAT! (But I'll love TBC on the way). Another example of a good "fork". Not punishing someone that wants to tank with a relatively poor experience in most other parts of the game made a huge difference.
    Last edited by mercutiouk; 2019-12-31 at 05:31 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille
    I knew it would be useful to be french at some point.
    Quote Originally Posted by xxAkirhaxx
    just get a mac. It's like sleeping with a fat chick to avoid STD's.

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by mercutiouk View Post
    The "fork" isn't a needed. It's probably VERY personal opinion and... I'm sure I was perfectly happy the first time through with LFG/LFR but... I can't help thinking they were pretty key in the eventual demise of WoW. At the point folks were able to just "do their own thing" with little interaction or player rep being needed... You've lost a lot of the main ingredient in WoW (the people and guild communities). At the point folks don't need to "play nice" with people you get an increasingly faceless, toxic community that puts people off.
    (1) As the expansion's community shrinks once the end of the development cycle is reached, there's less and less people to draw from for LFD. If anything, the ease with which people can make alts in WotLK contributes a lot more to the "anonimity" issue than the X-realm character of LFD, for example
    (2) LFR wasn't introduced until late Cata, and LFD until late WotLK. Neither is in TBC, at any rate
    (3) The game doesn't begin and end with LFD, in WotLK. I myself only did the 1st dungeon of the day for the reward, and called it a day - and even then, I quitted once I no longer needed Emblems for gear. Not much because of LFD, but because of how dumbed down and easy WotLK dungeons are. If I really wanted to do them, anyway, I could go in as a group with a friend or two - something you can STILL do with LFD, you know.

    If anything, I did a lot less dungeoning in Classic than I ever did in TBC or WotLK. Not only are Classic dungeons way too long and grindy to be enjoyable in the long run for me, but they basically offer no reward whatsoever once you're geared. At least TBC/WotLK has emblems that you can spend to get gems for sockets, mats for crafts, etc.


    When did we get the multi-spec options? I think that was TBC?
    It was WotLK.

  14. #374
    X-realm LFD was later still, that didn't really come in until after I finally quit retail (SoO in MoP). Broadly though, I think we're on the same page there. Anonymity + Internet = asshat in... rather too many cases. If they can sit down, decide what ways it can best be avoided... I'd want that rather than repeat everything verbatim.

    I.... kiiiiiiiinda agree with the emblem thing too. It was perhaps the start of "free epics!!!!!!!" which is another slippery slope (yes, character progression needs to be able to continue but... equally, the element of chance and luck on loot gives a reason to keep playing. Once you've gotten all the good stuff, there's... no real reason to repeat content. It's a crutch, accepted but... perhaps an annoying, needed one? There will always be the elusive "one thing that never drops" that keeps you coming back) but equally, being able to get something out of time spent rather than just the chance of something out of time spent.... maybe fair enough.
    Last edited by mercutiouk; 2019-12-31 at 05:46 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille
    I knew it would be useful to be french at some point.
    Quote Originally Posted by xxAkirhaxx
    just get a mac. It's like sleeping with a fat chick to avoid STD's.

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by mercutiouk View Post
    X-realm LFD was later still, that didn't really come in until after I finally quit retail (SoO in MoP). Broadly though, I think we're on the same page there. Anonymity + Internet = asshat in... rather too many cases. If they can sit down, decide what ways it can best be avoided... I'd want that rather than repeat everything verbatim.

    I.... kiiiiiiiinda agree with the emblem thing too. It was perhaps the start of "free epics!!!!!!!" which is another slippery slope (yes, character progression needs to be able to continue but... equally, the element of chance and luck on loot gives a reason to keep playing. Once you've gotten all the good stuff, there's... no real reason to repeat content. It's a crutch, accepted but... perhaps an annoying, needed one? There will always be the elusive "one thing that never drops" that keeps you coming back) but equally, being able to get something out of time spent rather than just the chance of something out of time spent.... maybe fair enough.
    From what I remember in WotLK (started playing in the Ulduar patch), the emblem gear was a really nice catch-up to prepare fresh characters to have some raid spots in PUGs. It wasn't the best gear and easily replaceable. Maybe the problem was it being... purple.

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by Whoopax View Post
    TBC is a VERY good PVE game and sucks at everything else. If raiding was the primary thing you did in WoW you usually loved it. Everything I say past here doesn't matter to you, because TBC might be the best raid/pve game ever made for a "raiding is all that matters" player. If PVE wasn't your primary focus, you can easily view it as highly overrated and point out that it started many of the systems and things that would eventually destroy WoW as we knew it.

    Flying destroyed world pvp. Instantly. Nothing more to say about that.

    Arena gear/arena led to the changes that destroyed Alterac Valley. ALL players gravitated towards the honor per minute idea to get the resilience gear they needed to start arena, instead of just having fun. Take the mentally ill repeat rank 14 grinders and give that mindset to ALL the players and that is what BG's became. Keep in mind that AV was cleverly designed to get pve players into pvp and that is ceased to exist as intended in TBC and the playerbase became very split with pvp and pve players. This got worse every expansion and now players who used to all be one big, awesome community are split into little groups.

    Professions mean very little in pvp because world pvp is dead. Why bother. Rocketboots could be used if I remember right in arena, but could backfire. Hand enchants I think could be used to, but it really didn't matter. I hated arena and tried to block out every time I would get myself or someone else the 1850 weapon. The rest was a waste of time. I also usually played double dps because running around a pole for a long time was awful.

    Arena becomes the barometer for everything, due to a dumb rating that autistic kids and streamers who helped ruin WoW, can brag about as they run around a pole with a healer in most comps (other than spriest, rogue, mage). Very few comps are viable and the pvp is awful and the makers of the original WoW said arena was a mistake.
    engadget.com/2009/11/13/blizzard-arenas-were-a-mistake/[/url]

    The better arena got, the more classes all became the same, which breaks and ruins larger forms of pvp and the "fun factor" and uniqueness of classes. The original designers knew this would happen. Fast forward and we now have unkillable healers when crosshealing happens in a BG or a 1 v 1 happens due to every class having to all have the same CC and chains. PvP outside of 3 v 3 is now GARBAGE. Healers HAVE to be OP in all other scenarios, just so a failed esport can continue.

    Segregation of the playerbase happens for the first time with Arena and Heroics. This was not that big a problem in TBC because you only had heroic dungeons and one difficulty of raids. Now we have LFR, normal, heroic, mythic, mythic plus. It's just stupid.

    Dailies start as a big thing in TBC. This is what happens when you break world pvp and segregate the playerbase to cater to the "eltiist jerks" (who now run WoW btw). You need dumbed down repeatable, zombie like content for the "casuals" or really nice people who weren't that great mechanically, who actually have very little to do in modern WoW. They eventually get bored/quit and all you are left with in the modern game is LFR/daily zombies who listen to streamers they are so bored and the 1 percent that no one could stand to be around in vanilla.

    In vanilla these mechanically deficient players could be "carried" but no one said carried because people weren't all aholes and they could contribute big time to a guild through professions, farming, running 5 mans and gearing up offtanks and dps. They could also pvp with you, world pvp, have consumables that gave them an edge etc. Modern WoW literally separates you from people you grew up playing this game with and rewards you for abandoning them with progression. Vanilla never did that.

    People claim vanilla was not casual friendly. That's complete BS. It had the most to do for casual players of any expansion. Everything took time, but you always had something to do.

    TLDR. TBC introduced too many catch up systems, flying killed world pvp, arena killed classes being unique and broke all other forums of pvp except 3 v 3, segregation of pve content got out of control eventually and further led to class homogenization, it was the first implemenation of a group finder (no one used it), dailies replaced organic pvp and farming content, old world is now useless.
    Bah. Arena was fantastic. Most people thought so. Just because you found 1 ex-blizz employee who didn't like it doesn't mean it was bad.

  17. #377
    If people are complaining now about faction imbalance imagine the outrage when 99% of the player base will be Horde because of Paladins and blood elf racials

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by xpose View Post
    If people are complaining now about faction imbalance imagine the outrage when 99% of the player base will be Horde because of Paladins and blood elf racials
    Keep in mind that you don't need Alliance to play arenas.

    But besides that, I wouldn't be surprised if PvP-hardcore ppl in TBC actually opted to go Alliance. As Ally, you'd get instant BG queues (which is even better in TBC than it is in Vanilla), and Alliance racials are still very good in Arena. Sure, WPvP could be harsh, but you don't need to roll on a PvP server to play BGs/Arenas.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Didly View Post
    You classic+ people are hilariouis .

    You don't like the direction modern Activision Blizzard has taken the game, so you're playing Classic. You now realize that game has nothing to do, so you want modern Activision Blizzard to make content for Classic?



    People are already leaving Classic... the proposal is to split the community further into Classic / TBC servers? Then eventually we'll have "classic" BFA?
    No, it's that we LOVE CLASSIC SO MUCH WE WANT MORE OF IT. We don't want changes, we want MORE CONTENT.

  20. #380
    tBC was far more than a phenomenal PvE game. tBC had great class design and that enabled truly fun PvP.

    Making the best PvP game isn't really so much about making the best PvP system: It's about making classes that are fun to fight one another with.

    tBC and WotLK mastered this. Nothing has ever come lose since.

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