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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Ishayu View Post
    tBC was far more than a phenomenal PvE game. tBC had great class design and that enabled truly fun PvP.

    Making the best PvP game isn't really so much about making the best PvP system: It's about making classes that are fun to fight one another with.

    tBC and WotLK mastered this. Nothing has ever come lose since.
    I agree, I think Wrath was the utopia of class design in WoW. It's no surprise it peaked subscribers at what 12-13mil the record for most WoW subs.

    And yet Wrath was the most casual version of WoW and I loved every bit of it.

  2. #382
    Im one of the rare ppl that never liked tbc, i mained a paladin and it was still rough for me to enjoy it, we got stuff to help with dps and tanking, and with todays knowledge it would most likely be much better, but the bad experiences still sting.

  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by Itori View Post
    Im one of the rare ppl that never liked tbc, i mained a paladin and it was still rough for me to enjoy it, we got stuff to help with dps and tanking, and with todays knowledge it would most likely be much better, but the bad experiences still sting.
    Yeah as a fellow Ret main, I do remember the pain and had to roll Holy to be viable in arena with my friends (mage/hunter).

    I do however remember Feral with (mangle) and it was OP as hell i know it got nerfed at some point but feral was really fun in TBC from memory. There was also a short time when Ret was op at TBC launch then it was nerfed to the ground.

    I remember tanking 5 man dungeons as feral in bear form probably the most fun i've had tanking in this game period. So i plan on rolling Feral if TBC classic servers come.

  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by Whoopax View Post
    I would bet about 80 percent of the people talking about how great TBC is never got out of Kara and started in TBC and actually liked the VANILLA leveling experience that was still there. The other 20 percent are just really hardcore PVE'rs that hate PVP. They will get bored of TBC by the time they hit Hyjal and go back to the modern game. The modern game was made for them, by one of them (Ion). That's why it sucks. Want a modern TBC play BFA. It's the same thing. Bad PVP, bad wpvp, bg's that are pointless, healers that make the game not fun and all that matters in the bg due to a failed minigame and CC chains and a focus on raids. Ion recreated TBC. It sucked then and it sucks now unless all you care about is raiding.
    What are you talking about? TBC was 10xgrindy and much much more difficult than vanilla lol.
    Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching.

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by ronkkrop View Post
    Bah. Arena was fantastic. Most people thought so. Just because you found 1 ex-blizz employee who didn't like it doesn't mean it was bad.
    That "ex-blizz employee" is Rob Pardo, the guy who led the design of Warcraft 3, Starcraft: Brood war, WoW & TBC.
    So yeah, i think that guy knows a bit about game design.

    Furthermore, one of the reasons why he saw Arena as a mistake was the impact on the continued development of the game.

    That's quote from Pardo:

    We didn't engineer the game and classes and balance around it, we just added it on, so it continues to be very difficult to balance. There's constant pressure on the class balance team, there's pressure on the game itself, and a lot of times players who don't PvP don't understand why their classes are changing. I don't think we ever foresaw how much tuning and tweaking we'd have to do to balance it in that direction.
    And that said back in 09, during Wotlk, he was not wrong with that statement.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-01-02 at 10:20 PM.

  6. #386
    Arena is failed esports plain and simple.

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by Whoopax View Post
    Arena is failed esports plain and simple.
    It's cool and all you only look at Arena from the eSports perspective and try to summarise it so briefly, but at the same time a lot of people enjoyed arena in TBC. It's another form of content. Not everyone plays Arena as an eSport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Didly View Post
    You classic+ people are hilariouis .

    You don't like the direction modern Activision Blizzard has taken the game, so you're playing Classic. You now realize that game has nothing to do, so you want modern Activision Blizzard to make content for Classic?



    People are already leaving Classic... the proposal is to split the community further into Classic / TBC servers? Then eventually we'll have "classic" BFA?
    I think people who like Classic are just looking to the future. And no, you can't seriously think they'll ever do legacy BfA servers. What a ridiculous notion. They'll possibly do BC and WotLK, maybe MoP or Legion, as these were peak, beloved expansions.

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    I loved PvP in TBC, I was meh about Arena, but didn't hate it. It was OK, just something else to do. To each their own. Kinda lost taking the OP seriously when they pulled out the cliche 'autistic' word as an insult (in this case claiming autistic people used arena as a barometer). Learn what autism actually is?

  8. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by Will View Post
    It's cool and all you only look at Arena from the eSports perspective and try to summarise it so briefly, but at the same time a lot of people enjoyed arena in TBC. It's another form of content. Not everyone plays Arena as an eSport.

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    I think people who like Classic are just looking to the future. And no, you can't seriously think they'll ever do legacy BfA servers. What a ridiculous notion. They'll possibly do BC and WotLK, maybe MoP or Legion, as these were peak, beloved expansions.

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    I loved PvP in TBC, I was meh about Arena, but didn't hate it. It was OK, just something else to do. To each their own. Kinda lost taking the OP seriously when they pulled out the cliche 'autistic' word as an insult (in this case claiming autistic people used arena as a barometer). Learn what autism actually is?
    Couple of things. You think legion was a peak expansion? What gives you that idea?

    But importantly, when using a word as an insult, don't try and apply the words literal definition. Words like bitch, bastard, asshole, and yes, autistic, all have legitimate meanings. However, when the context is an insult, clearly there was no attempt to apply the correct definition, but rather just a colloquialism.

    This is a perfectly normal and accepted part of most modern languages, and has occured for centuries.

  9. #389
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Couple of things. You think legion was a peak expansion? What gives you that idea?

    But importantly, when using a word as an insult, don't try and apply the words literal definition. Words like bitch, bastard, asshole, and yes, autistic, all have legitimate meanings. However, when the context is an insult, clearly there was no attempt to apply the correct definition, but rather just a colloquialism.

    This is a perfectly normal and accepted part of most modern languages, and has occured for centuries.
    You say it's accepted, but that doesn't make it right. Autism is one of the most widely misunderstood disorders in the world precisely BECAUSE it's sometimes used as a social insult, and this leads to people misunderstanding autism entirely, and assuming autistic people they deal with in the real world are stupid or deranged when they're absolutely not. Thankfully a comparative minority use it as an insult, so I wouldn't even say it's mass-accepted as such.

    It also sucks for autistic and retarded people to have their disorders or conditions bandied around by random people who don't know shit and are just looking to insult each other. For that reason alone it's better to fight this crap and opposite it rather than just shrug and say "oh hey whatever, it's socially accepted." At least I'm fighting it... The fact it's a colloquialism doesn't mean I'm going to be apathetic and just say nothing, because that won't do shit to help repair ignorance. Some won't care, but some will learn, but if people stay quiet, none will learn. That's just basic logic. Some is better than none.

    And, yes, Legion can be considered a peak -- easily. It pretty much obliterates the other recent expansions. Our best community estimates (as Blizz stopped releasing stats) puts Legion subscriber peak at the highest since the WotLK decline began. That's what I still call A peak... Not THE peak, but a peak (albeit smaller than the WotLK peak by far). Blizzard did confirm it had revived subscribers to levels not seen 'since the Cataclysm days', which if we look at a combination of official numbers and census data, well, we know during early Cata, the sub levels were near or possibly exceeding the 10m mark and still cresting off the back of the WotLK peak. A bit of logic and research into what Blizzard's said, hinted at and putting two and two together, plus Legion's extremely popular run, and we can pretty safely call it one of WoW's peak releases.

    Legion marked a powerful resurgence in the game's popularity and ratings. MoP is more of a sleeper hit. It was popular enough at the time, but it garnered a very powerful following after the fact. I merely listed those two as they are possible suitable (by suitable I mean popular enough to have a sizeable interest) choices for future legacy expansions, following BC or Wrath. People who say they would eventually 'end up at BfA' are kidding themselves, because BfA is widely regarded as one of the weaker expansions. Doing a legacy server for it 10 years from now -- assuming people even care about / WoW is still going by then -- would make very, very little sense.
    Last edited by Will; 2020-01-05 at 12:54 AM.

  10. #390
    TBC was my jam, there was a lot of PvP, even with flying.. People farmed things around the world at all times.

    And yeah, PvE was badass. I really hope they do TBC servers, i'd enjoy them a lot more than classic.

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyen View Post
    TBC was my jam, there was a lot of PvP, even with flying.. People farmed things around the world at all times.

    And yeah, PvE was badass. I really hope they do TBC servers, i'd enjoy them a lot more than classic.
    Yeah there was loads of world pvp with flying. It allowed people to find others to kill much more quickly, and it allowed people to reinforce in response to local or world defense alerts more quickly instead of being like "meh, cba, too far away". As someone who played from 2005 onwards, I had a LOT more world PvP in TBC (even accounting for the game's increased sub count by that point in time) and once flying hit, it got even more fun and frequent. You got the occasional troll who just hid on their flying mount and tried to annoy you, but most people fought back.

    99% of the people saying flying killed world pvp are talking absolute toss. They either didn't even try to PvP in BC, weren't there, or were on some dead or faction-imbalanced realm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itori View Post
    Im one of the rare ppl that never liked tbc, i mained a paladin and it was still rough for me to enjoy it, we got stuff to help with dps and tanking, and with todays knowledge it would most likely be much better, but the bad experiences still sting.
    not liking TBC isn't rare. I'd say at bare minimum a fifth of people on this forum weren't too keen on it.

  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by Will View Post
    You say it's accepted, but that doesn't make it right. Autism is one of the most widely misunderstood disorders in the world precisely BECAUSE it's sometimes used as a social insult, and this leads to people misunderstanding autism entirely, and assuming autistic people they deal with in the real world are stupid or deranged when they're absolutely not. Thankfully a comparative minority use it as an insult, so I wouldn't even say it's mass-accepted as such.

    It also sucks for autistic and retarded people.....

    And, yes, Legion can be considered a peak -- easily. It pretty much obliterates the other recent expansions. Our best community estimates (as Blizz stopped releasing stats) puts Legion subscriber peak at the highest since the WotLK decline began.

    Legion marked a powerful resurgence in the game's popularity...
    OH dear oh dear. You really took some time putting this together, and within seconds have completely discredited ANYTHING you have to say on the subject. First off, please don't use the term "retarded" - the accepted term is "intellectual disability" or "intellectually handicapped". Although once used as a blanket term to cover all mental disabilities, "retarded" is considered an extremely outdated and offensive term, including in mental health and medical fields (although some backward 3rd world medical 'professionals' may choose to still use the word). This is the perfect example of someone with absolutely ZERO knowledge on a topic feigning outrage just to take some perceived moral high-ground, only to find out their lack of education will send them tumbling back down in a very undignified manor.

    On to the next little issue. Lets talk about how legion "obliterated" Cata, Mop, and WoD. These "community estimates" you speak of, could you provide ANYTHING to back up such a baseless claim? Surely you have some links to some large scale surveys or 3rd party data gathering websites showing this "obliteration"? Could it possibly be that you liked legion, so you just figure everyone else does as well? I suspect there is a case of confirmation bias going on here, since during legions lifespan there were endless threads about how it was the worst expac ever. Now that BfA is out, the typical "grass is greener" situation has arrisen, as expected, were some claim legion was the last decent expansion.

    Please provide something......ANYTHING to show how legion marked ANY resurgence in the games popularity (let alone the ridiculous claim of "POWERFUL resurgence"- since there is a claim to be made it continued the steady decline in the games popularity, with some average to good raids holding interest and M+ keeping people busy, but very little else to make a claim of "Powerful Resurgence" - again, i simply ask for you to provide something, ANYTHING to show how you came to this conclusion other than your personal opinion.

    The very fact you say "Blizz stopped releasing stats" and then literally the next sentence is "legion subscribers at the highest since the WOTLK decline began" - this shows how strong your confirmation bias is, when you can string together a logical fallacy like that without even batting an eye.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Will View Post



    not liking TBC isn't rare. I'd say at bare minimum a fifth of people on this forum weren't too keen on it.
    I agree that plenty of players didnt enjoy TBC - but im wondering where you came up with the "bare minimum" 20% number? Seems very specific for something with little research done on it.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2020-01-05 at 02:30 AM.

  13. #393
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    I totally disagree on everything except the PvE part, TBC had amazing, near-perfect PvE content. Flying and arenas did not kill PvP, what killed PvP in Classic is the AV mindless grinding. I really loved the introduction of resilience, it gave the PvP hardcore players a stat to bolster them vs the PvE guys. It was really unfair to force PvPers to raid 24/7 in Classic in order to farm gear. If they don't want to PvE, they can simply grab their items via arena/BG/rep.

    TBC was the finished, polished and enhanced Classic product, and I am really looking forward to it ASAP.

  14. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by Whoopax View Post
    Flying destroyed world pvp. Instantly. Nothing more to say about that.
    I stopped reading after this phrase. Please, stop with the flying paranoia already.

  15. #395
    I hate tbc...loathe it. It destroyed wow.

  16. #396
    People still talk like this? it's ridiculous

    To quote OP:
    "Arena becomes the barometer for everything, due to a dumb rating that autistic kids and streamers who helped ruin WoW, can brag about as they run around a pole with a healer in most comps (other than spriest, rogue, mage). Very few comps are viable and the pvp is awful and the makers of the original WoW said arena was a mistake."


    ahh... the ol' autism word to say you think something sounds stupid. I am really hoping the gaming community outgrows this nonsense. The only one who sounds stupid here is you sir. You need a big ol piece of perspective and while you are there grab a heaping of maturity too...
    Last edited by Sariengrey; 2020-01-06 at 08:52 PM.

  17. #397
    Quote Originally Posted by Koward View Post
    While I strongly believe Vanilla is superior to TBC, I am not sure we have a choice in that matter. Just enjoy it while it lasts, and don't try too much to convince others. Some people would just prefer less world PvP.
    There's no reason that Classic BC couldn't just copy the current servers, label them as ServerName (BC) and call it a day. I don't know why Blizzard would make the player base choose between Classic and Classic BC. It makes more sense to give everyone the choice of what they want to play. If one of the servers thins out, they can condense them like they have with retail.

    And when Classic BC releases late 2021, everyone will probably be excited to have something different to try. And it'll balance back out. Besides, a lot of Classic can be just people showing up to raid at that point and you might lose some momentum, but it's better if your friends are like hey, let's try BC than completely quitting the game.
    Last edited by SteveZaer; 2020-01-07 at 04:19 AM.

  18. #398
    Herald of the Titans Daffan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    Yeah, those 3-4 whole slots out of 17 were totally all the Gear someone required
    https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Smith_Hauthaa
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.
    Classic+ Retune/New Boss Abilities >>> #nochanges crowd

  19. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by Daffan View Post
    Thanks for proving my point for me?

  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by Sariengrey View Post
    ahh... the ol' autism word to say you think something sounds stupid. I am really hoping the gaming community outgrows this nonsense. The only one who sounds stupid here is you sir. You need a big ol piece of perspective and while you are there grab a heaping of maturity too...

    Before they said autism they used F*****t and Retarded.....10 years later they will have a new word and it will keep going until the apocolypse

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