I understand WHY people love TBC, but....

[Worgenmaniac]

TBC is a VERY good PVE game and sucks at everything else. If raiding was the primary thing you did in WoW you usually loved it. Everything I say past here doesn't matter to you, because TBC might be the best raid/pve game ever made for a "raiding is all that matters" player. If PVE wasn't your primary focus, you can easily view it as highly overrated and point out that it started many of the systems and things that would eventually destroy WoW as we knew it.

Flying destroyed world pvp. Instantly. Nothing more to say about that.

Arena gear/arena led to the changes that destroyed Alterac Valley. ALL players gravitated towards the honor per minute idea to get the resilience gear they needed to start arena, instead of just having fun. Take the mentally ill repeat rank 14 grinders and give that mindset to ALL the players and that is what BG's became. Keep in mind that AV was cleverly designed to get pve players into pvp and that is ceased to exist as intended in TBC and the playerbase became very split with pvp and pve players. This got worse every expansion and now players who used to all be one big, awesome community are split into little groups.

Professions mean very little in pvp because world pvp is dead. Why bother. Rocketboots could be used if I remember right in arena, but could backfire. Hand enchants I think could be used to, but it really didn't matter. I hated arena and tried to block out every time I would get myself or someone else the 1850 weapon. The rest was a waste of time. I also usually played double dps because running around a pole for a long time was awful.

Arena becomes the barometer for everything, due to a dumb rating that autistic kids and streamers who helped ruin WoW, can brag about as they run around a pole with a healer in most comps (other than spriest, rogue, mage). Very few comps are viable and the pvp is awful and the makers of the original WoW said arena was a mistake.
engadget.com/2009/11/13/blizzard-arenas-were-a-mistake/[/url]

The better arena got, the more classes all became the same, which breaks and ruins larger forms of pvp and the "fun factor" and uniqueness of classes. The original designers knew this would happen. Fast forward and we now have unkillable healers when crosshealing happens in a BG or a 1 v 1 happens due to every class having to all have the same CC and chains. PvP outside of 3 v 3 is now GARBAGE. Healers HAVE to be OP in all other scenarios, just so a failed esport can continue.

Segregation of the playerbase happens for the first time with Arena and Heroics. This was not that big a problem in TBC because you only had heroic dungeons and one difficulty of raids. Now we have LFR, normal, heroic, mythic, mythic plus. It's just stupid.

Dailies start as a big thing in TBC. This is what happens when you break world pvp and segregate the playerbase to cater to the "eltiist jerks" (who now run WoW btw). You need dumbed down repeatable, zombie like content for the "casuals" or really nice people who weren't that great mechanically, who actually have very little to do in modern WoW. They eventually get bored/quit and all you are left with in the modern game is LFR/daily zombies who listen to streamers they are so bored and the 1 percent that no one could stand to be around in vanilla.

In vanilla these mechanically deficient players could be "carried" but no one said carried because people weren't all aholes and they could contribute big time to a guild through professions, farming, running 5 mans and gearing up offtanks and dps. They could also pvp with you, world pvp, have consumables that gave them an edge etc. Modern WoW literally separates you from people you grew up playing this game with and rewards you for abandoning them with progression. Vanilla never did that.

People claim vanilla was not casual friendly. That's complete BS. It had the most to do for casual players of any expansion. Everything took time, but you always had something to do.

TLDR. TBC introduced too many catch up systems, flying killed world pvp, arena killed classes being unique and broke all other forums of pvp except 3 v 3, segregation of pve content got out of control eventually and further led to class homogenization, it was the first implemenation of a group finder (no one used it), dailies replaced organic pvp and farming content, old world is now useless.

Great post. Agree 100%. TBC fragmented the world and the playerbase.

Some posters here are saying that TBC had more world pvp than Vanilla. Only on MMOChampion could you read something so stupid. Now you understand why Retail is in the state it is.

[Mukind]

i'm sure there will be but on the same scale as that inside the bgs? no there won't be. i will bet a vital organ if ppl want to maintain their rank they'll be in the bgs, as that is where the honor will be, not camping stv lowbies. the amount of ppl that you run into out in the world, of those willing to actually pvp? would you say this is more or less than what you'll find if you join AV?

so what?

the bar isn't more wpvp than other phases of vanilla

The bar is other expansions. And relative to other expansions, Wpvp in vanilla with thrive till the servers die. Why will that happen/

Because no1 can fuckin fly we didn't add a whole fucking dimension into the play.

[Heathy]

if ppl want to pvp they'll land and pvp ya fucking moron, what can you do on a flying mount, nothing, fly, thats it, if you want to pvp, the entire goal of what you're aiming to do is pvp, then you'll land and engage in pvp, flying isn't going to be the deciding factor on whether or not you want to pvp or not.

its not ''HEY I CAN FLY SO I DON'T HAVE TO PVP EVER AGAIN EVEN THOUGH I'M PLAYING ON A PVP SERVER HURRR DURR.'

personally i don't give a flying (ha pun) fuck about pvp in this game, it was always a minor distraction to me, something to do with an alt maybe, I've never known this game to have engaging or rewarding world pvp. it has never been that way, once the bgs came in, good luck maintaining a pvp rank with pure wpvp. there aren't enough consistent targets out in the world to maintain a rank from. it has fuck all to do with flying and everything to do with the best ways to earn honor. wpvp was never it.

[Mukind]

if ppl want to pvp they'll land and pvp ya fucking moron, what can you do on a flying mount, nothing, fly, thats it, if you want to pvp, the entire goal of what you're aiming to do is pvp, then you'll land and engage in pvp, flying isn't going to be the deciding factor on whether or not you want to pvp or not.

its not ''HEY I CAN FLY SO I DON'T HAVE TO PVP EVER AGAIN EVEN THOUGH I'M PLAYING ON A PVP SERVER HURRR DURR.'

personally i don't give a flying (ha pun) fuck about pvp in this game, it was always a minor distraction to me, something to do with an alt maybe, I've never known this game to have engaging or rewarding world pvp. it has never been that way, once the bgs came in, good luck maintaining a pvp rank with pure wpvp.

Who cares what they want? lol

they're on a pvp server

They should have to fight to out in the world, moron

WHOOOOSH lol

"hurrr durr having 3/4's of the pop up in the air isn't gonna change wpvp even tho no1 is even in draw of eachotehr anymore hurr durr"

lol

Sounds like retailers just trying to justify terrible design chioces. Flying in a tab targeting MMO....Great idea. lol

Arenas and Flying Mounts. TBC really was where it all turned down hill but the pve

[Heathy]

you can't pvp in the air though right, so if those involved want to pvp, they'll land and pvp, its a real simple concept, either.

you don't want to pvp right now so you won't land maybe because 1)you're doing something else or 2) you're obviously outnumbered)

or you do want to pvp, so you simply land, and pvp. i'm not sure if one exists in BFA but we (me and bro) were killing ppl in the Legionp pvp quests with the hardened shell. killing ppl with fall damage by dismounting them as they flew over the quest and flagged themselves for pvp. the shell afaik has existed since MoP all you've ever needed is one person with the shell for each person you intend to dismount. or use a Dk to grip ppl out the sky. there are ways. but the game has always given each player a choice in whether they want to participate or not.

I think ppl blame flying because its easy to blame, the fact remains there was more benefits in world pvp in tbc than there were for the vast majority of classic. again the capturable areas weren't there till basically naxx. TBC had its capture points on day 1 in each zone had one or had some sort of pvp type content.

[Yoshingo]

Flying destroyed world pvp. Instantly. Nothing more to say about that.

Its comments like this that people just declare as fact despite it being 100% subjective that is why Blizzard should never listen to the community about changes.

[Mukind]

you can't pvp in the air though right, so if those involved want to pvp, they'll land and pvp, its a real simple concept, either.

you don't want to pvp right now so you won't land maybe because 1)you're doing something else or 2) you're obviously outnumbered)

or you do want to pvp, so you simply land, and pvp. i'm not sure if one exists in BFA but we (me and bro) were killing ppl in the Legionp pvp quests with the hardened shell. killing ppl with fall damage by dismounting them as they flew over the quest and flagged themselves for pvp. the shell afaik has existed since MoP all you've ever needed is one person with the shell for each person you intend to dismount. or use a Dk to grip ppl out the sky. there are ways. but the game has always given each player a choice in whether they want to participate or not.

Do you really not get this

If i get killed, i'm much more likely to kill some one, tehre is a feedback loop. That's why wpvp honor phase in vanilla is so crazy. Most people aren't ranking they don't care about honor. They're just pissed they got killed and want revenge. And after a while you want to just kill everything cuz they might get you first.

YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THESE GAMES GO AWAY

Constant inane shit from you. Do you even play tehse games? lol

Flying mounts are fucking terrible, 100% killed wpvp. Anyone who thinks that is wrong is an idiot. If you think you can walk by enemy faction on the ground in draw and no1 is gonna engage. You have no idea what you're talkiong about. Go away

And if that's happening in retail, lol find a new server. Christ

[liberaet]

as far as I remember group finder became a thing in Wrath, but I agree with every point in the OP, especially about flying.

I don't want WoW Classic to move to TBC.

[SirCowdog]

Flying destroyed world pvp. Instantly. Nothing more to say about that.

It's sad to see people STILL repeating this nonsense.

Do you want to know what actually killed world PVP? Battlegrounds and the honor system. Giving better rewards for sitting safe in the capital, queuing up for battlegrounds that were more evenly matched, both in terms of levels and population. Follow that up with Arena, giving even MORE balanced matches.

Why would a person go out into the world to get ganked by some troll who thinks its fun to shit on someone 10 levels lower than them when they can have more fun and get better rewards, with more convenience from the safety of Shattrath?

Add to that a complete and total lack of open world PVP objectives to fight over at level cap. No towers to capture, no flags to run, nothing. The Towers in HFP were a joke with a joke reward, and the objectives/rewards in Zangarmarsh were even worse. Halaa had potential, but again the rewards vs time spent were hilariously bad compared to BGs/Arena.


If you want to claim that flying killed world pvp, then you're just being ignorant. Or worse, angry that you lost the ability to gank and corpse camp(the two lowest forms of pvp to exist).

- - - Updated - - -

If i get killed, i'm much more likely to kill some one, tehre is a feedback loop. That's why wpvp honor phase in vanilla is so crazy. Most people aren't ranking they don't care about honor.

You're mistaken about this.

Yes, people absolutely ARE caring about honor and ranking. Why? Because battlegrounds didn't exist yet in that phase, and honor/ranks gave people a real incentive to fight. There was a reward system. Not only did you get the feeling of victory for defeating the enemy, but you got tangible rewards in the form of access to gear, and status from showing off your rank.

That was absolutely destroyed by Arena and Battlegrounds. First because battlegrounds gave the masses much easier access to gear(Wellfare epix, remember?), redirecting them from the open world into instanced battlegrounds where honor was farmed more easily, conveniently, and consistently. Second, because Arena become the new place to earn bragging rights because it was viewed as the epitome of PVP skills.

Compared to that, open world ganking and fights were relegated to a novelty. Nobody cared about the open world PVP scene outside of a handful of rogues showing 2 or 3 vs 1 victory highlight reels.

Flying didn't kill world pvp.

[Mukind]

It's sad to see people STILL repeating this nonsense.

Do you want to know what actually killed world PVP? Battlegrounds and the honor system. Giving better rewards for sitting safe in the capital, queuing up for battlegrounds that were more evenly matched, both in terms of levels and population. Follow that up with Arena, giving even MORE balanced matches.

Why would a person go out into the world to get ganked by some troll who thinks its fun to shit on someone 10 levels lower than them when they can have more fun and get better rewards, with more convenience from the safety of Shattrath?

Add to that a complete and total lack of open world PVP objectives to fight over at level cap. No towers to capture, no flags to run, nothing.


If you want to claim that flying killed world pvp, then you're just being ignorant. Or worse, angry that you lost the ability to gank and corpse camp(the two lowest forms of pvp to exist).

- - - Updated - - -



You're mistaken about this.

Yes, people absolutely ARE caring about honor and ranking. Why? Because battlegrounds didn't exist yet in that phase, and honor/ranks gave people a real incentive to fight. There was a reward system. Not only did you get the feeling of victory for defeating the enemy, but you got tangible rewards in the form of access to gear, and status from showing off your rank.

That was absolutely destroyed by Arena and Battlegrounds. First because battlegrounds gave the masses much easier access to gear(Wellfare epix, remember?), redirecting them from the open world into instanced battlegrounds where honor was farmed more easily, conveniently, and consistently. Second, because Arena become the new place to earn bragging rights because it was viewed as the epitome of PVP skills.

Compared to that, open world ganking and fights were relegated to a novelty. Nobody cared about the open world PVP scene outside of a handful of rogues showing 2 or 3 vs 1 victory highlight reels.

Flying didn't kill world pvp.

did you play on p servers? i assure you 99% of the player base doesn't rank at all, and they were per capita way more involved than the people in classic. And while non pvpers may like the idea of +honor going across the screen. They don't even understand how the honor system works nor are they farming it in any way.

Adding another dimnesino 100% killed wpvp. You just exponentially increased the amount of space a player can cover. And by extension reduced population density. And expect the pvp based on being in draw of eachother will be the fucking same. Can't even hold a choke lol

I'll say it again. Anyone who thinks flying mounts are a good idea and didn't finish off Wpvp is an idiot. And doesn't understand even the basics of what they're doing. lol

Yea new dimension doesn't change anything...It's all the same? lol

[Niter]

You know, I enjoyed the way flying worked because you could get dismounted and fall to your death. I wish that were still in the game, as flying without any sort of danger is a bit boring, although I will concede that ground mounts make the world feel more alive.

I disagree that TBC was the best expansion for raiding. I'd say that WotLK was better in that regard with raids that did not require attuning to them and with the first tier of the expansion being accessible. TBC offered Karazhan (which is one of the best raids ever made) as the easy option. I know how easy it was because I tanked many bosses and trash as a Bear Druid and I wasn't completely immune to crits yet, and Bears were far from where Warriors were. SSC had, in my opinion, disappointing bosses and heavy hitting trash. To be honest, TBC had extremely hard hitting trash and a few very hard bosses. TK had some interesting mechanics, but only Kael'thas felt like a hard encounter. Hyjal was the first kind of ToC raids, in my opinion. It was very much arena-like. Some bosses, however, were strong. BT was a let down for the most part, even if some of the bosses were nice, and facing Illidan was cool. Finally, Sunwell was a long and difficult raid, and lots of choreography was required to do well here.

If you think about WotLK raiding, Naxxramas was an entry level raid, and although not challenging enough to long time raiders, it was way more challenging than LFR has ever been and I saw countless PUGs get destroyed. Sartharion was easy, but everyone pushed for the achievement and mount, and that was hard before the next raid tier came out. Malygos was an afterthought and it is sad to see an Aspect die in a raid that was easier than the Occulus. After that, Ulduar came out and it was probably one of the best raids ever, and some fights were tough and could get even tougher. ToC was a nice idea, but considering the Onyxia revamp and the dungeons that were released with ICC patch, and even before, the dungeon that came out with ToC, all of that amounted to a raid that was not that challenging because gear upgrades were abundant. Every single new wing in the VoA also provided excellent rewards, making ToC even easier. Still, some fights were nasty with PUGs. ICC was a great raid, and some bosses proved to be a challenge. Even some minor ones such as Rotface and Festergut, and their respective dogs, wiped the floor with PUGs on a regular basis. The Lich King, up to this point, was only second to M'uru in difficulty.

WotLK felt like there was more to do that was not farming.

I would disagree with you on PvP though. In my view, TBC had one of the best PvP balances in the game. You could play most classes and be useful. It is true that being a Resto Druid with an Arms Warrior beside you meant you would dominate the arena, but classes had quite a bit of utility. I remember it was the most fun I've ever had playing a Feral Druid, as I could CC enemies, tank a bit, land some emergency heals and so on. As a Paladin, I felt like I was like a captain of sorts as I made everyone around me that much better. Hunter pets could dish out some big numbers at times. Warlocks were extremely strong, and Mages had nice damage and tools. Shadow Priest was a cool spec. Starting in WotLK, and it remained pretty much the same afterwards, PvP felt like a game of bursting someone down as soon as possible. In TBC nothing hit so tremendously hard that you could be finished without being able to react. Well, Rogues and stuns and Warlocks with their fears, Frost Mages with their kiting abilities, those could wear you down quickly, but what came after that was so bloody disappointing... WotLK bridged the gap between PvE and PvP a bit more by including Wintergrasp, but it was so easy to outright destroy almost any class that it just wasn't that much fun. In TBC fights were longer, and I loved that. I don't think the game ever came close to that since.

TL;DR
Of course a lot of people can disagree, and they should as we all get to experience things differently, but I'd say that TBC was just Vanilla on steroids considering both the good and the bad, and the biggest improvement was the classes and specs which were a lot better. PvP was better in TBC than in other expansions and PvE was not better than WotLK, MoP or Legion.

[Mukind]

You know, I enjoyed the way flying worked because you could get dismounted and fall to your death. I wish that were still in the game, as flying without any sort of danger is a bit boring, although I will concede that ground mounts make the world feel more alive.

I disagree that TBC was the best expansion for raiding. I'd say that WotLK was better in that regard with raids that did not require attuning to them and with the first tier of the expansion being accessible. TBC offered Karazhan (which is one of the best raids ever made) as the easy option. I know how easy it was because I tanked many bosses and trash as a Bear Druid and I wasn't completely immune to crits yet, and Bears were far from where Warriors were. SSC had, in my opinion, disappointing bosses and heavy hitting trash. To be honest, TBC had extremely hard hitting trash and a few very hard bosses. TK had some interesting mechanics, but only Kael'thas felt like a hard encounter. Hyjal was the first kind of ToC raids, in my opinion. It was very much arena-like. Some bosses, however, were strong. BT was a let down for the most part, even if some of the bosses were nice, and facing Illidan was cool. Finally, Sunwell was a long and difficult raid, and lots of choreography was required to do well here.

If you think about WotLK raiding, Naxxramas was an entry level raid, and although not challenging enough to long time raiders, it was way more challenging than LFR has ever been and I saw countless PUGs get destroyed. Sartharion was easy, but everyone pushed for the achievement and mount, and that was hard before the next raid tier came out. Malygos was an afterthought and it is sad to see an Aspect die in a raid that was easier than the Occulus. After that, Ulduar came out and it was probably one of the best raids ever, and some fights were tough and could get even tougher. ToC was a nice idea, but considering the Onyxia revamp and the dungeons that were released with ICC patch, and even before, the dungeon that came out with ToC, all of that amounted to a raid that was not that challenging because gear upgrades were abundant. Every single new wing in the VoA also provided excellent rewards, making ToC even easier. Still, some fights were nasty with PUGs. ICC was a great raid, and some bosses proved to be a challenge. Even some minor ones such as Rotface and Festergut, and their respective dogs, wiped the floor with PUGs on a regular basis. The Lich King, up to this point, was only second to M'uru in difficulty.

WotLK felt like there was more to do that was not farming.

I would disagree with you on PvP though. In my view, TBC had one of the best PvP balances in the game. You could play most classes and be useful. It is true that being a Resto Druid with an Arms Warrior beside you meant you would dominate the arena, but classes had quite a bit of utility. I remember it was the most fun I've ever had playing a Feral Druid, as I could CC enemies, tank a bit, land some emergency heals and so on. As a Paladin, I felt like I was like a captain of sorts as I made everyone around me that much better. Hunter pets could dish out some big numbers at times. Warlocks were extremely strong, and Mages had nice damage and tools. Shadow Priest was a cool spec. Starting in WotLK, and it remained pretty much the same afterwards, PvP felt like a game of bursting someone down as soon as possible. In TBC nothing hit so tremendously hard that you could be finished without being able to react. Well, Rogues and stuns and Warlocks with their fears, Frost Mages with their kiting abilities, those could wear you down quickly, but what came after that was so bloody disappointing... WotLK bridged the gap between PvE and PvP a bit more by including Wintergrasp, but it was so easy to outright destroy almost any class that it just wasn't that much fun. In TBC fights were longer, and I loved that. I don't think the game ever came close to that since.

TL;DR
Of course a lot of people can disagree, and they should as we all get to experience things differently, but I'd say that TBC was just Vanilla on steroids considering both the good and the bad, and the biggest improvement was the classes and specs which were a lot better. PvP was better in TBC than in other expansions and PvE was not better than WotLK, MoP or Legion.

who caresa bout balanced arena?

again

Death match is for plebs, fighting over basic resources in vanilla had more engagement

Anyone who likes arenas is automatically disqualified from talking about what is and is not good in pvp. You have no idea.

There is no way to defend your love of death match. lol. Even call of duty players wouldn't defend it.

[Heathy]

why do you seem to think you are some sort of authority on anything, who made you the spokesman for the majority.

you seem to have an ego that is several times larger than average. where by its reached the stage that what you say is gospel and everyone else is either a moron or a pleb, i'm 100% convinced you're trolling anyone you respond to.

there is fuck all constructive about what you're saying, just that everyone is somehow wrong and you are undoubtedly right. so much disingenuous bullshit i can't be bothered to sift through it.

largely there just isn't much benefit over doing world pvp, instead of joining the battlegrounds, or doing arena if thats what you want to do for pvp. world pvp has never been as rewarding as doing other things. the simple fact is that if doing something else other than world pvp is more rewarding than world pvp, less ppl will do world pvp, because that other thing is better at reaching the same goals either farming honor, or just getting ample amounts of pvp, because everyone you run into, wants to pvp.

for world pvp you're at the mercy of relying on whoever happens to stumble by as pvp content, where they may not always be a challenge, or even want to pvp at that time. the battlegrounds assured you'd always get pvp and the ppl you run into will be a level appropriate challenge. in otherwords you don't have to wait for the pvp to spontaneously happen at a specific place, that you might not be at when it happens.

there is no doubt that flying made it easier to avoid world pvp, but ultimately there has to be a DESIRE TO WORLD PVP IN THE FIRST PLACE. ie having a flying mount doesn't make you not want to pvp. if you want to pvp you want to pvp. just like if you need to shit not having a toilet doesn't make you not want to shit. either there are enough ppl at a specific time that want world pvp and enough ppl show up to make it engaging, or its one sided, or its not that engaging as there aren't enough ppl doing it or not enough reasons to do it there, over somewhere more rewarding, like the bgs or arenas.


the TLDR is that world pvp died off by itself by not retaining a reward system comparable to bgs and arenas. if world pvp had its own rewards or its own progression, ppl might do it over the bgs. what world pvp has always lacked is reasons to do that, over instanced battlegrounds or arenas. the incentive for world pvp doesn't scale the same way bgs and arenas do. if i had to interject i'd say the only reason for this is that, it would be too easy to exploit through win trading etc but rewarding world pvp could be its own thread.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

This is sorta true. But if you put stuff to fight over out in the wrold people will fight.

It won't feel like a war without wpvp being the only efficient way to gain honor. But it will feel dangerous.

If you want to go out in the world you should have to face some danger to get there. Flying takes that out. If you wanted that you shoulda rolled on a PvE server....Which everyone in retrospect seems to agree are terrible looking at the choices classic players make

BG's may have killed the RP war going on before BG releases. But flying mounts finished it off

The last three expansions have all had flying removed for most of their cycle. It didn't bring back World PVP.

[anon5123]

"wahh wahh flying mounts killed wpvp!!"

....no? You still have to do things on the ground. You can't just stay on your flying mount 100% of the time, you have to land and do things eventually.

Flying mounts made wpvp WORSE because now gankers can just swoop in out of nowhere and smack you.

[Doffen]

TBC ftw, raiding ftw!

Though, it didn't have much to do outside of that. That's why I think Legion is on par with TBC, because it had this awesome content outside of raiding and pvp.

For raiding though, great times back in 2007-08!

[SirCowdog]

did you play on p servers? i assure you 99% of the player base doesn't rank at all, and they were per capita way more involved than the people in classic. And while non pvpers may like the idea of +honor going across the screen. They don't even understand how the honor system works nor are they farming it in any way.

Adding another dimnesino 100% killed wpvp. You just exponentially increased the amount of space a player can cover. And by extension reduced population density. And expect the pvp based on being in draw of eachother will be the fucking same. Can't even hold a choke lol

I'll say it again. Anyone who thinks flying mounts are a good idea and didn't finish off Wpvp is an idiot. And doesn't understand even the basics of what they're doing. lol

Yea new dimension doesn't change anything...It's all the same? lol

The entire first 5 years I played wow, starting from halfway through vanilla, was on a pvp server. And yes, a lot of people chased hinor in TBC to get easier access to some forms gear. This is where the complaints about "wellfare epix" began.

But more importantly was the simple fact that people didn't have to specifically risk the open world in order to get the enjoyment of pvp. A person could waste their time wandering the open looking for a good fight, often finding only people who wanted to farm or run away....or they could go into a Battleground or arena where they had a guaranteed fight with equal numbers and better rewards.

It might not be true for everyone, but on the scale of server groups tje vast majority of players looked at the value proposition and didn't choose the open world for their pvp time.

I get why so many people look at the correlation between flying and the open world. It's an easy conclusion to come to, even if it's wrong. You go i to the open world and have nothing but slim picking. And all you see are people flying from point to point ignoring your attempts to fight them.

Why? Because those people got their pvp fix in BGs and Arena and are flying to PVE goals. So it looks like flying is the cause because that's what you see. But in truth it's what you DON'T see that's the real reason.

[shaunika123]

I'm waiting specifically for arenas.

TBC arenas were the best the game's pvp has ever been.

AV was only fun if you were a ranged or a warrior with 5 pocket healers.


"not many arena comps being viable"
is also a big myth

every single class had multiple rank1 viable comps in multiple brakets.
TBC had a ton of class viability.

you could even play 2 dps or 3 dps comps. in 2s and 3s, which is nowadays unplayable.

TBC also brought at least 1 or 2 of the most iconic abilities to most classes (cyclone, ice lance, cloak of shadows, bloodlust, etc etc etc) and was overall a MASSIVE improvement of class design for every single class. without exception.

"herp derp pvp sucks because you hug a pillar and run around"

arenas actually took a lot of skill.
unlike spamming blizzard in AV.

sure, TBC fucked up with flying, and screwing up world pvp. (albeit isle of queldanas brought it back in spades)

but arenas more than make up for it.

[trapmaster]

Well, why not just take out FLYING since they are gonna revamped it anyway....THERE WE GO! WORLD PVP CAN FINALLY CONTINUE!

[Bigbazz]

"I understand that people have a completely different opinion to mine but let me just make a new account so I can try another angle"