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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Logging out means that you don't play the game, by flying away you keep playing the game and keep doing whatever you want to do.
    That's not a completely true statement, and is VERY misleading if I was to be cynical about it. Because when dead, you're only able to "play" the game in the extremely limited sense of running back to your body, or taking the rez penalty. Likewise, if you're up against someone who attacked you while you're were attempting to do non-PVP tasks, you're also not able to play the game in the way you want.

    Someone earlier brought up a very good point in that if someone flies away from you, it's because they have no interest in doing PVP. Do you think that same person will suddenly choose to PVP with you just because they can't fly away? Or is it more likely that they'll just log out, take a rez sickness, or otherwise avoid PVP?

    The flaw here is in assuming that simply removing flight will magically change someone's mind and fix WPVP. It won't. At BEST it allows one person to corpse camp more effectively, and force someone who has no interest in PVPing against a superior foe when their real aim is to complete a PVE task. How can I say this with authority? Because if the person doesn't fly away, they would stay to fight you regardless of what type of mount they have.

    And I even allowed for this in my response to Mozu, when I compared how much "harm" flying was doing when compared to players choosing BGs or Arena over WPVP. Sure, in a very few cases someone will call for a troup of friends to come provide you with a battle. But the amount of times you gain the benefit of such a situation is so seldom, when looked at on the full scale of the game, as to be insignificant.


    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    I have no clue where you get those arguments from, all i see here, in this discussion, is one person saying that flying reduces amount of wpvp interactions, and other says that it doesn't.
    That's not actually what I'm saying though. Misunderstanding or misrepresenting what I'm actually saying is where you're getting confused.

    My point - in response to the claim that Flying is a major factor in the decline of WPVP - is that while it's true that flying causes some amount of change(see: my target got away and I'm pissed about it) to WPVP, that the amount of "harm" that it's actually doing when compared to other sources drawing players out of WPVP is so insignificant as to be a non-factor.



    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Which doesn't make sense, because flying allows you to escape WPvP as long as you have some sort of long CC ability whatsoever (polymorph and gtfo). It's not an argument of it being harmful or not liking it, it's nature of flying - it allows you to avoid WPvP by its damn design. It simply reduces amount of WPvP interactions, because you won't be able to drag unwilling people into WPvP by corpse camping them (at least when doing it alone)
    And why is that even a bad thing? Are you seriously going to defend corpse camping as a type of WPVP that the game should be focusing on. That a feature of the game that is deeply beloved by many people should outright be removed from the game so that some shitty low-level PVPer can get their jollies by forcing a player to choose between logging off or getting repeatedly killed by an opponent he has almost no chance of defeating?

    How about instead of arguing for such an extreme measure to facilitate the worst kind of behavior, people in favor of WPVP advocate for more significant WPVP objectives and locations of importance for players to gather. And reasons to stay there long enough for WPVP to happen organically? Territory to control with tangible rewards on par, or better, than just AFKing in a BG.

    The entire basis of the argument to remove flying so people can corpse camp is....forgive my language....so fucked and twisted that it amazes me that anyone could possibly be seriously in favor of it. If you want better WPVP, removing flight is absolutely NOT the way to go about arguing for it.




    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Yes, and guess what option gives a player more chances to not get bogged down into wpvp? Literally every option besides flying involves risk of penalty, being it a 10m debuff, long walk, being stuck at your dead body or not playing the game lol. You can also pick a combination of those, but no matter how you look at it - mounting up and going 150yrd into the air is going to beat literally any other option for "avoiding wpvp"
    You forgot to mention that flying away carries the penalty of not being able to do what you were there to do before the competition arrived. It may include losing a valuable gathering resource, or rare mob, or quest objective being ceded to the opposing player.

    Again, the problem here is that people are taking an overly simplistic view of their definition of WPVP. It's not always just about getting a kill. Sometimes it actually is about just chasing off the opposition. Causing a player to flee is often a victory.


    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    And speaking of avoidability - remember warmode before pathfinder? This "avoidable" wpvp was so avoidable, that forums were full of weeping players that they can't play.
    Oh boo fucking hoo! Those baddie alliance players won't come out and get obliterated by overwhelming force! That's not fair!

    Gimme a fucking break. This isn't an argument that has anything to do with flight. At best it's an example of WPVP being in decline for reasons OTHER than flying.


    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Now imagine the same thing with flying - you beelined to your belowed WQ, got killed before anyone could even load in, res on corpse, mount up and fly to another WQ. There will be no charge into your mounted ass with a follow up of druid roots, there will be nothing, because there is no flying combat in the game, you are virtually immune to interractions
    You forgot to mention the WPVP net gun. You also are not considering my previous point about what actually constitutes PVP. Just because you don't get a kill doesn't mean you didn't still engage in PVP.


    I see the real issue here is that there's a fundamental disagreement on what WPVP really is. Obviously to some people it's ganking and corpse camping, hoping that "an epic battle" magically appears before them. From my perspective of having played open world or freeform PVP in many games, I believe otherwise, as I've described above. Understand where I'm coming from and you'll start to see why I look at the bigger picture, and why I think it's so ridiculous to scapegoat flight when there are so many other, larger, factors in the equation.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-10-22 at 12:52 PM.
    Sylvanas has left the Guild.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozu View Post
    Yes, it is not up for debate because that is what the mechanic is for. Saying "A screwdriver is meant to drive screws, and that isn't up for debate" does not require further evidence. That is the purpose of the tool.



    This is wrong. Play classic sometime, and you'll understand just how wrong.



    Your argument is "two people flying in the air doing nothing IS pvp man!"? Yikes, no wonder we'll never see eye-to-eye here.



    Uh, yeah? Ganking and camping is part of pvp, and people being able to freely avoid it is stupid on a pvp server. Hint: You can gank people that are your level as well. The outside world being dangerous is the point of a pvp server. People that have some delusion about "fair fights only" are hilarious.
    Flying changed wpvp, but it did not kill it. Yes, flying allows players to avoid some wpvp, but you still have to land and stay on the ground at some point, if you want harvest resources or kill mobs for quests. Flying also allows gankers to swoop down quickly and attack players engaged in combat with mobs.

    Players who wanted to avoid wpvp before flying had alternatives available. If you saw opposing players coming you could mount and try and escape; you could also take rez sickness and hearth; or, in more extreme cases you could log out and then log in on an alt.

    I played Vanilla, TBC, and Classic on pvp realms. At least on my realm, there was active wpvp even with flying in TBC. But, there were also players who played on pvp realms who tried there best to avoid pvp. Not every horde I encountered engaged in pvp when they saw me, and I did not always engage them.

  3. #163
    1) It's the same guy from last week and the week before that making new accounts and starting all these anti-TBC threads.

    2) regardless of what anyone says, TBC was one of the most well-liked/played expansions of all time, so much so that blizzard actually made another expansion (legion) themed after it and it was a huge success, comes to show it doesn't matter what a few minorities say, blizzard will always follow the data and so far the data is incredibly in TBC's favor.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Whoopax View Post
    I would bet about 80 percent of the people talking about how great TBC is never got out of Kara and started in TBC and actually liked the VANILLA leveling experience that was still there. The other 20 percent are just really hardcore PVE'rs that hate PVP. They will get bored of TBC by the time they hit Hyjal and go back to the modern game. The modern game was made for them, by one of them (Ion). That's why it sucks. Want a modern TBC play BFA. It's the same thing. Bad PVP, bad wpvp, bg's that are pointless, healers that make the game not fun and all that matters in the bg due to a failed minigame and CC chains and a focus on raids. Ion recreated TBC. It sucked then and it sucks now unless all you care about is raiding.
    Sorry, but I am max level on classic and just find myself wanting TBC more and more. Those arenas were one of the best additions ever made to the game. World PvP was very much alive as I engaged in tons of it while farming my epic flying mount. The above post about fighting over resources is very true. You are right that homogenization happened as a result of arena, but the affects of that was felt in future expacs, not in TBC itself. in TBC they put arenas in the game and then were like "well shit, this is hard to balance." The imbalance of TBC actually gave it some charm imo. Far as BGs I did a shit ton of em.


    TBC was classic done right. If it comes out then the classic servers will lose a fair bit of their population because BC will prove to be better. Maybe this is what you are afraid of since you prefer classic and know the majority would disagree with you.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by wholol View Post
    1) It's the same guy from last week and the week before that making new accounts and starting all these anti-TBC threads.

    2) regardless of what anyone says, TBC was one of the most well-liked/played expansions of all time, so much so that blizzard actually made another expansion (legion) themed after it and it was a huge success, comes to show it doesn't matter what a few minorities say, blizzard will always follow the data and so far the data is incredibly in TBC's favor.
    TBC was the best expansion, sure, but that is mostly because the game held on to some of its vanilla roots. It was still a massive downgrade that hurt the future of the game in unfortunate ways.

    Vanilla 10/10
    TBC 7/10
    WotLK 6/10
    Cata 2/10
    MoP 5/10
    WoD 1/10
    Legion 7/10
    Bfa 2/10

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by lummiuster View Post
    I guess it depends on the realm you were in. From what I remember the PVP was 24/7 in Hellfire/Nagrand
    ^ This, I played on 3 servers (friends spread across all three) wPVP was always going on. Not so much in Azeroth, but a ton in Outland. I will still argue that the queue systems killed wpvp (BGs, Arenas, Etc..) and not flying.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Logging out means that you don't play the game, by flying away you keep playing the game and keep doing whatever you want to do.

    I have no clue where you get those arguments from, all i see here, in this discussion, is one person saying that flying reduces amount of wpvp interactions, and other says that it doesn't. Which doesn't make sense, because flying allows you to escape WPvP as long as you have some sort of long CC ability whatsoever (polymorph and gtfo). It's not an argument of it being harmful or not liking it, it's nature of flying - it allows you to avoid WPvP by its damn design. It simply reduces amount of WPvP interactions, because you won't be able to drag unwilling people into WPvP by corpse camping them (at least when doing it alone)

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yes, and guess what option gives a player more chances to not get bogged down into wpvp? Literally every option besides flying involves risk of penalty, being it a 10m debuff, long walk, being stuck at your dead body or not playing the game lol. You can also pick a combination of those, but no matter how you look at it - mounting up and going 150yrd into the air is going to beat literally any other option for "avoiding wpvp"

    And speaking of avoidability - remember warmode before pathfinder? This "avoidable" wpvp was so avoidable, that forums were full of weeping players that they can't play. Now imagine the same thing with flying - you beelined to your belowed WQ, got killed before anyone could even load in, res on corpse, mount up and fly to another WQ. There will be no charge into your mounted ass with a follow up of druid roots, there will be nothing, because there is no flying combat in the game, you are virtually immune to interractions
    You clearly are not playing in retail mate. People who want to pvp are in war mode and they are doing WPvP. Some may be crying, because they get advantage for being in war mode but want none of pvp. People who want world pvp are not avoiding it. Or are you complaining, that people can run away from gank parties? We have like 100 BGs in retail too. If you want to pvp, you have literally all the chances. And what is so majestic about world pvp in itself? If someone loves pvp so much, what's wrong with it being in bgs ? Fair x vs x amount of players on level ground and not something like "this guys is 40% hp and has not seen me". I mean you could say it makes people to interact and get friends to help and creates grp vs grp pvp... which is same as BG pvp.

  8. #168
    World pvp/ganking was definitely there in TBC. You could fly around on your mount all you like, but if you wanna farm something you gotta land and kill mobs. And if *you* specifically wanna farm at that spot, you can bet someone else wants too as well. Elemental Plateau in Nagrand anyone? There is going to be enough pvp up there to make you vomit.

    Any area where you can farm Motes of Shadow/fire/water/air/ etc will be contested. Outside dungeons and raids, same as classic atm. When daily hubs are out those areas too. TBC did not ruin world pvp, there is plenty.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    The entire first 5 years I played wow, starting from halfway through vanilla, was on a pvp server. And yes, a lot of people chased hinor in TBC to get easier access to some forms gear. This is where the complaints about "wellfare epix" began.

    But more importantly was the simple fact that people didn't have to specifically risk the open world in order to get the enjoyment of pvp. A person could waste their time wandering the open looking for a good fight, often finding only people who wanted to farm or run away....or they could go into a Battleground or arena where they had a guaranteed fight with equal numbers and better rewards.

    It might not be true for everyone, but on the scale of server groups tje vast majority of players looked at the value proposition and didn't choose the open world for their pvp time.

    I get why so many people look at the correlation between flying and the open world. It's an easy conclusion to come to, even if it's wrong. You go i to the open world and have nothing but slim picking. And all you see are people flying from point to point ignoring your attempts to fight them.

    Why? Because those people got their pvp fix in BGs and Arena and are flying to PVE goals. So it looks like flying is the cause because that's what you see. But in truth it's what you DON'T see that's the real reason.
    wpvp was effecient in wow for a few months from a honor perspecitve

    not relevant at all relative to flying mounts

    just stop, no idea what you're talking about

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by shaunika123 View Post
    I'm waiting specifically for arenas.

    TBC arenas were the best the game's pvp has ever been.

    AV was only fun if you were a ranged or a warrior with 5 pocket healers.


    "not many arena comps being viable"
    is also a big myth

    every single class had multiple rank1 viable comps in multiple brakets.
    TBC had a ton of class viability.

    you could even play 2 dps or 3 dps comps. in 2s and 3s, which is nowadays unplayable.

    TBC also brought at least 1 or 2 of the most iconic abilities to most classes (cyclone, ice lance, cloak of shadows, bloodlust, etc etc etc) and was overall a MASSIVE improvement of class design for every single class. without exception.

    "herp derp pvp sucks because you hug a pillar and run around"

    arenas actually took a lot of skill.
    unlike spamming blizzard in AV.

    sure, TBC fucked up with flying, and screwing up world pvp. (albeit isle of queldanas brought it back in spades)

    but arenas more than make up for it.
    #notaste

    #deathmatchmatchisterrible

    #wtfpeople

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Essem View Post
    World pvp/ganking was definitely there in TBC. You could fly around on your mount all you like, but if you wanna farm something you gotta land and kill mobs. And if *you* specifically wanna farm at that spot, you can bet someone else wants too as well. Elemental Plateau in Nagrand anyone? There is going to be enough pvp up there to make you vomit.

    Any area where you can farm Motes of Shadow/fire/water/air/ etc will be contested. Outside dungeons and raids, same as classic atm. When daily hubs are out those areas too. TBC did not ruin world pvp, there is plenty.
    yea because Wpvp wouldnt have been a lot better if you had to fight before what you wanted was in draw...?

    You just explained why it killed wpvp lol

  10. #170
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    I remember TBC fights, they were long, interesting, breathtaking.

    I guess people's hate towards flying is easily describable. When I had 60% flying mount and very rich guy had 280 flying I had no chance to run away from my enemy. The only reason why PVP could be destoyed by flyign > your enemies run away. thats it.

    I did only pvp during TBC and man, that was cool. I loved everything.

    Wotlk destroyed pvp for me lol
    step into everything will gief ya nothing, mon

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexplode View Post
    some raids where fun like zul'aman, karazan, BT. but not the best

    im starting to think you did not play TBC. you can easily fly to halaa, the 3 towers in HFP, Auchidon, and have lots of fun with word pvp. remember it was only on outland that you could actually fly.Back in Azeroth you still had Tarrenmill , Xroads, Gadjetzan, the tower in Westfall which fights erputed for 1-2 hours. and many more raid pvp in cities.

    we can also had the ablity to show off our 1850 rating weapons and 2000 helms back then. it was hella fun.
    Wasnt it shoulders? On my server nagrand pvp was almost non existent. The hellfire one would occasionally happen because 60s wanted to do the quests for the towers. World pvp on isle of queldanas was almost 24/7 though.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozu View Post
    Are you suggesting that the wpvp you saw would've been the same or less without flying? What a ridiculous claim.
    Flying honestly adds to the danger,not knowing someone could swoop in on you at anytime,and it added to the urgency of killign someone so they dont get away

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    Flying honestly adds to the danger,not knowing someone could swoop in on you at anytime,and it added to the urgency of killign someone so they dont get away
    except the fact you never have to run through chokes adn you've just reduced the population density by a factor of 10...Sure

    The amount of stupidity in this thread is galling

  14. #174
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    ...Wait what?

    TBC was were i actually started to do PVP, doing arenas as a big thing and a system were created around that.

    World PVP can go to hell if you got a good PVP system and enviroment. Classes were fun in PVP, many of the bugs/OPness of Vanilla got fixed and it actually felt somewhat competative.

    As some have said before in this thread, everything got better in TBC. Vanilla was the testing ground, making a foundation and TBC built upon that. Nothing was replaced, nothing was removed, everything was an addition or an improvement. It became a different game for sure, which is why some people love Vanilla more, but WoW became an obvious better game with TBC.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    ...Wait what?

    TBC was were i actually started to do PVP, doing arenas as a big thing and a system were created around that.

    World PVP can go to hell if you got a good PVP system and enviroment. Classes were fun in PVP, many of the bugs/OPness of Vanilla got fixed and it actually felt somewhat competative.

    As some have said before in this thread, everything got better in TBC. Vanilla was the testing ground, making a foundation and TBC built upon that. Nothing was replaced, nothing was removed, everything was an addition or an improvement. It became a different game for sure, which is why some people love Vanilla more, but WoW became an obvious better game with TBC.
    Arena is for plebs you have no taste thanks for ruining tab targeting pvp brah

    Had they added in a BG system with MMR, then we'd be talking. And not done this limited action BS where u can't use the items u farm int he world....

    Terrible limited action set BS

    All of you saying you love arena. Fuck you plebs

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by toffmcsoft View Post
    Couldn't agree more. Flying destroyed World PVP and removed a ton of player interaction.
    The usual bullshit response. Please enlighten us on how that happened. Because anyone why wanted to pvp out in the world did so. Those who did not, used flying to avoid it, as best they could.

    You see, PvP = Player vs Player

    Not Player vs Someone who has no desire at this moment to fight.

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mukind View Post
    Arena is for plebs you have no taste thanks for ruining tab targeting pvp brah

    Had they added in a BG system with MMR, then we'd be talking. And not done this limited action BS where u can't use the items u farm int he world....

    Terrible limited action set BS

    All of you saying you love arena. Fuck you plebs
    so you're not a pleb for wanting unbalanced pvp? what you're saying is you don't like arenas because you can't use 100 different niche consumable items you farmed from levelling, like one time reward CC items and all sorts of items on various differernt separate cooldowns. and that it ended up being mostly just class vs class, no meta bullshit.

    hell i don't do pvp that much at all, but even i can see why you can have it be that FFA, it would be impossible to balance that meta. it would have just created too many metas that would detract entirely from the point of the arena, its not about, who can farm the most bullshit consumables to use in the arena its meant to be about the classes. no tricks no or minimal meta, just class v class, gear vs gear. in a structured way.
    Last edited by Heathy; 2019-10-22 at 02:50 PM.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathy View Post
    so you're not a pleb for wanting unbalanced pvp? what you're saying is you don't like arenas because you can't use 100 different niche consumable items you farmed from levelling, like one time reward CC items and all sorts of items on various differernt separate cooldowns. and that it ended up being mostly just class vs class, no meta bullshit.

    hell i don't do pvp that much at all, but even i can see why you can have it be that FFA, it would be impossible to balance that meta. it would have just created too many metas that would detract entirely from the point of the arena, its not about, who can farm the most bullshit consumables to use in the arena its meant to be about the classes.
    You don't need class balance with objectives, that's the beauty of it. Only faction balance. Which is all they needed to fix in TBC

    You need perfect balance for deathmatch, which only comes through homogeneity.

    I have spent the last couple years crapping on "glads" who have no idea what they're doing in real PvP where there is an objective not just some flow chart with a skirmish lol

    It's terrible. Anyone who likes arena has no taste. Being good at arena doesn't make you bad at objective PvP. But being good at arena means nothing but you know the matchup and can hump a pillar

    Deathmatch is cancer

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukind View Post
    It's terrible. Anyone who likes arena has no taste. Being good at arena doesn't make you bad at objective PvP. But being good at arena means nothing but you know the matchup and can hump a pillar

    Deathmatch is cancer
    Yeah, totally. Which is why there's a National Arena Championship circuit.

    Arena takes far more skill than AB, WSG, AV, etc, ever hoped to. Objectives in Warcraft BGs are elementary if the people on your team have a modicum of common sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mukind View Post
    I have spent the last couple years crapping on "glads" who have no idea what they're doing in real PvP where there is an objective not just some flow chart with a skirmish lol
    Wow, man. Look at you go, just crapping all over us "fake PVPers" that would literally destroy you 1v1. We have our cool titles and mounts, and yet here you are... crapping all over us while you guard Stables, huh? What a time to be alive.

    EDIT: For the sake of fairness, I'm not saying Battlegrounds don't require skill. They certainly do.
    Last edited by Black Goat; 2019-10-22 at 03:37 PM.

  20. #180
    I did so much world pvp in TBC, probably more than in all the other expansions put together. I remember using mounts to fly up in trees, and mass dot hordes below me. Was pretty funny. World pvp areas were pretty much anywhere you farmed (Elemental Plateau/Skettis/Ogri'la/Sunwell area when that got there), as well as designated pvp areas (middle of Nagrand, Hellfire, etc).

    TBC is easily my favorite expansion to PVP in. I'll admit that's partly because I played Warlock, and felt like a GOD (at least until the bursty pre-wotlk patch), but still...

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