I understand WHY people love TBC, but....

[Whoopax]

TBC is a VERY good PVE game and sucks at everything else. If raiding was the primary thing you did in WoW you usually loved it. Everything I say past here doesn't matter to you, because TBC might be the best raid/pve game ever made for a "raiding is all that matters" player. If PVE wasn't your primary focus, you can easily view it as highly overrated and point out that it started many of the systems and things that would eventually destroy WoW as we knew it.

Flying destroyed world pvp. Instantly. Nothing more to say about that.

Arena gear/arena led to the changes that destroyed Alterac Valley. ALL players gravitated towards the honor per minute idea to get the resilience gear they needed to start arena, instead of just having fun. Take the mentally ill repeat rank 14 grinders and give that mindset to ALL the players and that is what BG's became. Keep in mind that AV was cleverly designed to get pve players into pvp and that is ceased to exist as intended in TBC and the playerbase became very split with pvp and pve players. This got worse every expansion and now players who used to all be one big, awesome community are split into little groups.

Professions mean very little in pvp because world pvp is dead. Why bother. Rocketboots could be used if I remember right in arena, but could backfire. Hand enchants I think could be used to, but it really didn't matter. I hated arena and tried to block out every time I would get myself or someone else the 1850 weapon. The rest was a waste of time. I also usually played double dps because running around a pole for a long time was awful.

Arena becomes the barometer for everything, due to a dumb rating that autistic kids and streamers who helped ruin WoW, can brag about as they run around a pole with a healer in most comps (other than spriest, rogue, mage). Very few comps are viable and the pvp is awful and the makers of the original WoW said arena was a mistake.
engadget.com/2009/11/13/blizzard-arenas-were-a-mistake/[/url]

The better arena got, the more classes all became the same, which breaks and ruins larger forms of pvp and the "fun factor" and uniqueness of classes. The original designers knew this would happen. Fast forward and we now have unkillable healers when crosshealing happens in a BG or a 1 v 1 happens due to every class having to all have the same CC and chains. PvP outside of 3 v 3 is now GARBAGE. Healers HAVE to be OP in all other scenarios, just so a failed esport can continue.

Segregation of the playerbase happens for the first time with Arena and Heroics. This was not that big a problem in TBC because you only had heroic dungeons and one difficulty of raids. Now we have LFR, normal, heroic, mythic, mythic plus. It's just stupid.

Dailies start as a big thing in TBC. This is what happens when you break world pvp and segregate the playerbase to cater to the "eltiist jerks" (who now run WoW btw). You need dumbed down repeatable, zombie like content for the "casuals" or really nice people who weren't that great mechanically, who actually have very little to do in modern WoW. They eventually get bored/quit and all you are left with in the modern game is LFR/daily zombies who listen to streamers they are so bored and the 1 percent that no one could stand to be around in vanilla.

In vanilla these mechanically deficient players could be "carried" but no one said carried because people weren't all aholes and they could contribute big time to a guild through professions, farming, running 5 mans and gearing up offtanks and dps. They could also pvp with you, world pvp, have consumables that gave them an edge etc. Modern WoW literally separates you from people you grew up playing this game with and rewards you for abandoning them with progression. Vanilla never did that.

People claim vanilla was not casual friendly. That's complete BS. It had the most to do for casual players of any expansion. Everything took time, but you always had something to do.

TLDR. TBC introduced too many catch up systems, flying killed world pvp, arena killed classes being unique and broke all other forums of pvp except 3 v 3, segregation of pve content got out of control eventually and further led to class homogenization, it was the first implemenation of a group finder (no one used it), dailies replaced organic pvp and farming content, old world is now useless.

[Firedemon]

Flying did not destroy world pvp. If you actually played tbc and went out of shattrath you'd know there were pretty good battles in nagrand, hellfire and terokkar at the objectives and at the daily hubs.

How exactly was mindleslly farming mobs better than dailies? Which ilone is more zombir like?

And by no means did you always have something to do in vanilla, not anymore than tbc anyway. Unless you were a high rank tryhard. But then you had the conqueror/justicar titles which also took a really good time of mindleslly spamming bgs

[Majestic12]

Flying did not destroy world pvp. If you actually played tbc and went out of shattrath you'd know there were pretty good battles in nagrand, hellfire and terokkar at the objectives.

How exactly was mindleslly farming mobs better than dailies? Which ilone is more zombir like?

And by no means did you always have something to do in vanilla, not anymore than tbc anyway. Unless you were a high rank tryhard. But then you had the conqueror/justicar titles which also took a really good time of mindleslly spamming bgs

Strongly disagree about the world PvP. It was nothing at all.

The only place that had a pinch of PvP was Isle. Only because you couldn't fly.

[Exkrementor]

Flying destroyed world pvp. Instantly. Nothing more to say about that.

What ist it with you guys and world pvp? World pvp just sucks. There are only like 2 scenarios in world pvp:

1. You want to do shit in the open world and get ganked by a group of people or a high level player or a class that you cant beat (warrior vs. warlock for example, and please spare me with your stories where you as a warrior managed to beat a warlock. nobody cares)
In this example the only thing that happens ist that other people are wasting your time and you get frustrated.

2. You are a high level player and/or are with your friends und you gank somebody that has no chance agianst you. In this case you are an asshole that just wastes other peoples time and patience.

Either you are an asshole or you are a victim. So yeah world pvp is garbage. deal with it.

On the topic of TBC: TBC made everything better and even did alot of new things which are great. TBC is better than classic in every way.

[lummiuster]

Strongly disagree about the world PvP. It was nothing at all.

The only place that had a pinch of PvP was Isle. Only because you couldn't fly.

I guess it depends on the realm you were in. From what I remember the PVP was 24/7 in Hellfire/Nagrand

[Kelato]

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...t-boring-quick

We get it, you don't like TBC. No need to create a new account every month and start a new thread about it.

[unbound]

Flying destroyed world pvp. Instantly. Nothing more to say about that.

Nope, completely false. World PvP happened a lot in BC...in fact, I remember it happening more in BC than in Vanilla. Tons of action in Southshore, and capital city runs that I either defended or participated in the attack.

World PvP started dying a little bit in Wrath, but didn't really go away until Cata.

Arena gear/arena led to the changes that destroyed Alterac Valley. ALL players gravitated towards the honor per minute idea to get the resilience gear they needed to start arena, instead of just having fun.

Your emphasis on "all" is what makes this completely false again. I didn't see Arena gear become a notable factor until very late in BC. I was a casual PvP player throughout Vanilla and BC, and it wasn't until Wrath that the gear became the deciding factor in PvP over player skill.

Professions mean very little in pvp because world pvp is dead. Why bother. Rocketboots could be used if I remember right in arena, but could backfire. Hand enchants I think could be used to, but it really didn't matter. I hated arena and tried to block out every time I would get myself or someone else the 1850 weapon. The rest was a waste of time. I also usually played double dps because running around a pole for a long time was awful.

Already pointed out that you were wrong about World PvP, so the remaining point(s) you have here are suspect at best and irrelevant at worst.

Arena becomes the barometer for everything, due to a dumb rating that autistic kids and streamers who helped ruin WoW, can brag about as they run around a pole with a healer in most comps (other than spriest, rogue, mage). Very few comps are viable and the pvp is awful and the makers of the original WoW said arena was a mistake.
engadget.com/2009/11/13/blizzard-arenas-were-a-mistake/

I don't disagree with this other than to say that most players in BC didn't play Arena, and the majority of Arena players themselves weren't that serious about it. Obviously, if you were one of those that focused on Arena, then your perspective on how important this point is will vary wildly.

The better arena got, the more classes all became the same, which breaks and ruins larger forms of pvp and the "fun factor" and uniqueness of classes. The original designers knew this would happen. Fast forward and we now have unkillable healers when crosshealing happens in a BG or a 1 v 1 happens due to every class having to all have the same CC and chains. PvP outside of 3 v 3 is now GARBAGE. Healers HAVE to be OP in all other scenarios, just so a failed esport can continue.

I don't disagree with this in general. However, I don't think PvP alone is responsible for the homogenization of the classes...Blizz was looking to cut costs and it's much easier to maintain classes when you only worry about the simple things such as damage output in lieu of rock-pap

Segregation of the playerbase happens for the first time with Arena and Heroics. This was not that big a problem in TBC because you only had heroic dungeons and one difficulty of raids. Now we have LFR, normal, heroic, mythic, mythic plus. It's just stupid.

Except that it wasn't really true in BC. Heroic dungeons were a natural progression at max level. Everyone I knew played in the heroic dungeons, so it wasn't a segregation at all during that expansion.

I would agree that what Retail has today is stupid, but I would argue it has more to do with laziness / cheapness on Blizz's part than segregation. Count the number of dungeons and raids in BC and Wrath vs what Blizz has provided ever since.

Dailies start as a big thing in TBC. This is what happens when you break world pvp and segregate the playerbase to cater to the "eltiist jerks" (who now run WoW btw). You need dumbed down repeatable, zombie like content for the "casuals" or really nice people who weren't that great mechanically, who actually have very little to do in modern WoW. They eventually get bored/quit and all you are left with in the modern game is LFR/daily zombies who listen to streamers they are so bored and the 1 percent that no one could stand to be around in vanilla.

This actually makes no sense. There is no link between dailies and breaking world PvP and playerbase segregation. BTW, this paragraph does little more than present you as an elitist jerk.

TLDR. TBC introduced too many catch up systems, flying killed world pvp, arena killed classes being unique and broke all other forums of pvp except 3 v 3, segregation of pve content got out of control eventually and further led to class homogenization, it was the first implemenation of a group finder (no one used it), dailies replaced organic pvp and farming content, old world is now useless.

Sorry, BC was a solid evolution of the game. Wrath started more of the things you despise about Retail than BC by a good measure, but even then I wouldn't pin Wrath as the *major* reason.

I suspect that you didn't actually play PvP or you suffer from denial (i.e. the opposite of nostalgia) of how BC actually was.

[Vampyrr]

Strongly disagree about the world PvP. It was nothing at all.

The only place that had a pinch of PvP was Isle. Only because you couldn't fly.

Couldnt be more incorrect and showed you didnt even try to find pvp. Some of my most crazy pvp moments were Haala, Terrokar towers, and Helfire capture points remain active to THIS DAY. Compared to those Isle had almost no real big pvp battles. Constant skirmishes for the first couple of weeks then nothing.

[Laurathansal]

Strongly disagree about the world PvP. It was nothing at all.

The only place that had a pinch of PvP was Isle. Only because you couldn't fly.

Wrong.

As a leatherworker in TBC, I farmed Cobra scales in Shadowmoon Valley, Elementals and leather in Nagrand for all the mats I needed.

In all these 3 places, constant PvP battles raged as the mobs we had to kill were very limited. We had the elemental plateau in Nagrand with about 20 elementals, and the cave in Shadowmoon Valley with about 8-10 snakes. The leather was more abundant but the special leather to make the TBC druid tanking sets came from very specific mobs in a very specific area which was right next to the horde base in Nagrand.

And of course, we were always close to Halaa in Nagrand, which was a PvP area.

PvP in those areas was fierce and could happen at any moment.

I am sure other players who farmed mats for their professions or simply gathered rep with factions had PvP too.

I also remember later in the game when farming Ogri'la rep, I had quite frequent PvP encounters.

World PvP was quite alive in TBC, because to do all the stuff it was required of you, you had to be on the ground for extremely long periods. Being in the air only made travel a bit more convenient.

[schwarzkopf]

That's complete BS. It had the most to do for casual players of any expansion

You have those two sentences the wrong way around.

Vanilla had almost NOTHING to do at all ... the current expansion has heaps of stuff to do.

Once you hit 60 on Vanilla after 80% doing nothing and 20% killing 50 mobs for 3 drops - you had nothing to do unless you were lucky enough to raid.

Vanilla is a tiny subset of BfA.

Please be rational.

[Whoopax]

I would bet about 80 percent of the people talking about how great TBC is never got out of Kara and started in TBC and actually liked the VANILLA leveling experience that was still there. The other 20 percent are just really hardcore PVE'rs that hate PVP. They will get bored of TBC by the time they hit Hyjal and go back to the modern game. The modern game was made for them, by one of them (Ion). That's why it sucks. Want a modern TBC play BFA. It's the same thing. Bad PVP, bad wpvp, bg's that are pointless, healers that make the game not fun and all that matters in the bg due to a failed minigame and CC chains and a focus on raids. Ion recreated TBC. It sucked then and it sucks now unless all you care about is raiding.

[kail]

How many accounts are you going to create? Did tBC really hurt you that much?

[Aleax]

OP, your post is not counter-arguments against BC servers, it is a promotion. Or that's how you did it. There's another post about BC in the forums, more conceivable. Maybie post in there?

Cheers

[akaTheDude]

Flying did not destroy world pvp. If you actually played tbc and went out of shattrath you'd know there were pretty good battles in nagrand, hellfire and terokkar at the objectives and at the daily hubs.

This is very true. When I first read the OP, I was like.....nagrand had a TON of wpvp

[toffmcsoft]

Couldn't agree more. Flying destroyed World PVP and removed a ton of player interaction.

[Daedius]

TBC is superior to Vanilla in every way.

[Kithelle]

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...t-boring-quick

We get it, you don't like TBC. No need to create a new account every month and start a new thread about it.

It's always the same people...they act like Retail or other xpacks completely sucks and Classic is absolutely flawless.

They can't understand why anyone likes any WoW other than Vanilla/Classic...they keep spamming threads and posts about how great Classic is or how bad others are. They need to insecurely proclaim victory when it's to early to tell if Classic is a just a fad or a phenomena.

Also like they lie about Classic, they lie about other version because telling the truth is hard for them.

- - - Updated - - -

Couldn't agree more. Flying destroyed World PVP and removed a ton of player interaction.

Aww how cute...agreeing with your own new account!

[ssjgohan4life]

This is very true. When I first read the OP, I was like.....nagrand had a TON of wpvp

Yep, literal translation of "Flying ruined world PVP" is "Flying made it so more people came to kick my ass when I was trying to grief somebody and ruined pvp for me"

[czarek]

TBC is superior to Vanilla in every way.

Yep. TBC is nothing more like Vanilla on steroids. And wPVP was literally nothing except some stages in vanilla, wPVP was never a real thing that matters its more like blurry memory IMO.

[ParanoiD84]

TBC was the best wow will ever be imo, wow at it's prime. That and Wrath.

Also i remember pvp all over the place in TBC even with flying mounts.