I understand WHY people love TBC, but....

[Black Goat]

That substantiates my claim completely, sorry bud. You're going to have to try harder than tossing silly insults my way as an argument.

No... it doesn't. Do you even read what you're replying to? I'm not even arguing? I'm pointing out that you're the pot calling the kettle black. I haven't insulted you once. I have only pointed out the glaring holes and false logic in your foolish statements.

Since you're the type to ignore when you're defeated thoroughly, I'll safely assume your tank is empty and have nothing left except to plug your ears and feign ignorance.

Good luck treating those burns, bud.

[Charge me Doctor]

"meh, cba to run over there on foot, take too long."

Damn, if only there would be some sort of a feature that would allow you to quickly transport your sorry ass to a designated location from another designated location, so you could see "Thrallmar is under attack" and click a button "go to Thrallmar" and a couple of minutes later you appear in Thrallmar.

[Mozu]

No... it doesn't. Do you even read what you're replying to? I'm not even arguing? I'm pointing out that you're the pot calling the kettle black. I haven't insulted you once. I have only pointed out the glaring holes and false logic in your foolish statements.

Since you're the type to ignore when you're defeated thoroughly, I'll safely assume your tank is empty and have nothing left except to plug your ears and feign ignorance.

Good luck treating those burns, bud.

I love people like you who think they've "won" by doing nothing but "burning" people and insulting them. It's the Trump-style arguing, I guess. Make loud noises and claim superiority.

Still waiting on a proper argument homeboy.

[Black Goat]

I love people like you who think they've "won" by doing nothing but "burning" people and insulting them. It's the Trump-style arguing, I guess. Make loud noises and claim superiority.

Still waiting on a proper argument homeboy.

Still waiting on data on how flying diminished WPVP.

BTW, I've never been arguing with you. Not even once. I'm pointing out how your perspective is no more factual than the other's. Apparently your too dull to grasp that? *shrug, yawn* You claimed anecdotal evidence isn't enough to say flying helped WPVP. Yet you've only provided anecdotal evidence to claim that it didn't. That's really not tough to follow. Or, for you, maybe it is?

And yes, I've won. You resorted to insults, and now you're mentioning Trump in a thread that's about TBC, flying skill, and WPVP. I'd say you're 0-2.

[Mozu]

Still waiting on data on how flying diminished WPVP, loser.

Yeah, thought so

BTW, I've never been arguing with you. Not even once. I'm pointing out how your perspective is no more factual than the other's. Apparently your too dull to grasp that? *shrug, yawn*

Of course not. Your only retort is to demand information that you yourself have said is impossible to have.

And yes, I've won. You resorted to insults, and now you're mentioning Trump in a thread that's about TBC, flying skill, and WPVP. I'd say you're 0-2.

I love the flailing. Keep it up!

[Charge me Doctor]

Flying didn't kill wpvp, having shit to do killed wpvp. When you have things you want to accomplish you're less likely to do things that amplify the time necessary to do it by an additional hour+.

That's actually a good point

Arena didn't kill classes, classes were broken before then, and there was 2v2, 3v3, and the shit show that was 5v5 where you grabbed pretty much anyone with a brain and hoped for the best. Class homogenization was from the "Bring the Player Not the Class" retarded ass ideology from WotLK, classes were very different from BC to WotLK.

Arenas for sure killed fun in PvP with their weird-ass balancing attempts to make wow an esports game. Things like "your pet is immune to frost magic and attacks with a 0,67 speed, while also being immune to all CC and moves faster than any player can" were quite "fun" to one side of a PvP fight, but they had to go down for the sake of "pvp balance". You just can't have fun things in PvP with arenas in place (or at least while blizzard takes arenas "seriously")

[SirCowdog]

Where, in any of my posts, did I claim flying was the sole reason wpvp is lacking? Yes, Blizzard made this game so you don't actually even need to go into the world anymore once you hit max level due to queues for everything. What exactly is your point?

The few times you're required to go into the world, it should be dangerous (on a pvp server). With flying, it is not. Without flying, it is. Not a hard concept.

"Other things made wpvp less so why not make it even WORSE with flying???" is not a good argument.

You are claiming that flying is a...and I quote... "a major factor" in the decline of WPVP. Quote ME where I said you claimed otherwise.

What I AM doing is breaking down the claim that flying harms WPVP in ant significant or meaningful way. I'm showing how over-exaggerated that claim is. I'm putting it in perspective.

People want to claim flying is bad for world PVP. I'm showing that there are much more massive, and concrete, issues with WPVP than the questionable and highly anecdotal impact of flying on WPVP.

[Black Goat]

Yeah, thought so



Of course not. Your only retort is to demand information that you yourself have said is impossible to have.



I love the flailing. Keep it up!

0-3. Thought so.

I'm demanding information that's inaccessible to prove to you that you have absolutely no proof that flying diminished WPVP. For someone pretending to be so sharp, that point is really lost on you, isn't it? Then again, you apparently think I've been debating with you this whole time. LOL.

Flailing? Please. You mentioned Trump. That is the internet concession to "I have nothing left, let's pretend he's a Trump supporter". Pathetic.

[Charge me Doctor]

Battlegrounds did more to harm WPVP than flying. Battlegrounds made engaging in PVP and gaining honour faster and easier. People that wanted large-scale PVP could just jump into AV...rather than just stomp around ganking lowbies until they start calling their guildmates and/or switching to their max level characters.

That thing when you didn't have to stand next to an NPC near the battleground entrance to stay queued was definitely an improvement that made players to engage with each other more in open world, instead of sitting semi-afk.

[Mozu]

You are claiming that flying is a...and I quote... "a major factor" in the decline of WPVP. Quote ME where I said you claimed otherwise.

What I AM doing is breaking down the claim that flying harms WPVP in ant significant or meaningful way. I'm showing how over-exaggerated that claim is. I'm putting it in perspective.

People want to claim flying is bad for world PVP. I'm showing that there are much more massive, and concrete, issues with WPVP than the questionable and highly anecdotal impact of flying on WPVP.

It absolutely is a major factor, and not overstated at all. There are certainly other contributing factors, but flying is a common denominator.

0-3. Thought so.

I'm demanding information that's inaccessible to prove to you that you have absolutely no proof that flying diminished WPVP. For someone pretending to be so sharp, that point is really lost on you, isn't it? Then again, you apparently think I've been debating with you this whole time. LOL.

Flailing? Please. You mentioned Trump. That is the internet concession to "I have nothing left, let's pretend he's a Trump supporter". Pathetic.

Just keep digging your hole deeper, eh?

[Black Goat]

Just keep digging your hole deeper, eh?

No holes on the high-ground, bud. Maybe you should mount up and... fly away?

[SirCowdog]

It absolutely is a major factor, and not overstated at all. There are certainly other contributing factors, but flying is a common denominator

Correlation does not equate to causation.

You keep saying flight is a major factor but have given no evidence outside of an anecdotal and unprovable situation where your guildies helped you in an undefined "hours long" battle.

And when given the benefit of the doubt that it went down like you described, I still showed how even if that happened every time(it doesn't) it still wouldn't hold a candle to the massive amounts of damage done to WPVP by people choosing to play BGs and Arena instead.

Either bring something more substantial to the debate or admit your claim is wrong.

[Charge me Doctor]

You fail to provide anything more than an anecdotal example of why you believe the flying skill diminished WPVP. *yawn*

The rest of your post is just fluff.

Do you need to "provide" something to explain that with more tools to get away, people get away more easily?

[Granyala]

If i get killed, i'm much more likely to kill some one, tehre is a feedback loop. That's why wpvp honor phase in vanilla is so crazy. Most people aren't ranking they don't care about honor. They're just pissed they got killed and want revenge. And after a while you want to just kill everything cuz they might get you first.

Incorrect.
When I get killed in the open world, 95% chance that it is s/o that either has the counter class or has a significantly higher power level than me.
A.k.a.: unless I have a high level to log over to, there is no feasible way to retaliate w/o another visit to Bob.

When it would be an even match or when I am the stronger party, well guess what:
Horde does not attack me. They demonstratively start jumping to signal that they have no wish to PvP.

That is my 4 years of experience regarding world PvP from early 2007 to late 2011.

[jstnw89]

Are you that threatened by a TBC server?

[Charge me Doctor]

When you present data

What data? Do you need some sort of data to understand, that when a person has flying learned, all he needs to get away from you is to be ooc for 3 seconds (0 for a druid), then he's free, when without flying being ooc for 3 seconds will simply put him on +100% MS (at best), which gives you 3+ seconds to see him resurrect and move in his general direction to interrupt, or simply apply some sort of CC, then kill him.

Next time you'll ask for data to prove that water is wet, or punching yourself in the balls will hurt.

[Mozu]

Correlation does not equate to causation.

You keep saying flight is a major factor but have given no evidence outside of an anecdotal and unprovable situation where your guildies helped you in an undefined "hours long" battle.

And when given the benefit of the doubt that it went down like you described, I still showed how even if that happened every time(it doesn't) it still wouldn't hold a candle to the massive amounts of damage done to WPVP by people choosing to play BGs and Arena instead.

Either bring something more substantial to the debate or admit your claim is wrong.

That guild example was just an anecdote. The real take away from that example is that world pvp is unavoidable (largely) without flying, and massively avoidable with flying. That is how the mechanic works. It is not up for debate.

Every other reason for diminished pvp in the equation doesn't change that whatever world pvp exists afterwards is still diminished further by the avoidant nature of the flying mechanic.

What data? Do you need some sort of data to understand, that when a person has flying learned, all he needs to get away from you is to be ooc for 3 seconds (0 for a druid), then he's free, when without flying being ooc for 3 seconds will simply put him on +100% MS (at best), which gives you 3+ seconds to see him resurrect and move in his general direction to interrupt, or simply apply some sort of CC, then kill him.

Next time you'll ask for data to prove that water is wet, or punching yourself in the balls will hurt.

I wouldn't bother. Contextualized information doesn't register with him.

[Yamuri]

I loved arena and BGs in BC. I liked all the dungeons, and some raids were fun. That's just my opinion on it.

[Granyala]

That guild example was just an anecdote. The real take away from that example is that world pvp is unavoidable (largely) without flying, and massively avoidable with flying. That is how the mechanic works. It is not up for debate.

wPvP is just as avoidable in retail with the whistle and the rather dense flightpath network.

It doesn't matter at all though, because people are concentrated where there is stuff to do and in order to do stuff everyone has to dismount. That's when PvP happens.

Flying only sees to it that there is less chance for PvP on your way to your destination. The least interesting aspect of your playing session. Seing s/o ride by and trying to gank him only works if you have a skill that can make him dismount / slow on range, else he will continue on his +100% mount and ignore you. Done it countless of times.

[Mozu]

wPvP is just as avoidable in retail with the whistle and the rather dense flightpath network.

It doesn't matter at all though, because people are concentrated where there is stuff to do and in order to do stuff everyone has to dismount. That's when PvP happens.

Flying only sees to it that there is less chance for PvP on your way to your destination. The least interesting aspect of your playing session. Seing s/o ride by and trying to gank him only works if you have a skill that can make him dismount / slow on range, else he will continue on his +100% mount and ignore you. Done it countless of times.

I agree whistles and dense flight paths are also a problem. Retail is all about avoiding interactions at all cost though, so it makes sense.

Killing someone in a concentrated area with flying: they rez and fly away, pvp over. Killing someone in a concentrated area without flying: they have to figure out how to deal with you, whether it's friends or getting on their mains or calling for help in chat. It's a much better, social system that also has the benefit of more pvp and less avoidance (because it's not possible, largely). I've experienced it personally on classic in STV and Hillsbrad the last few weeks.