I understand WHY people love TBC, but....

[Charge me Doctor]

Correlation does not equate to causation.

Right. Do you think rogues getting away from PvP fights they don't want to be in simply correlate with their abilities like "stealth" or "vanish"? Same shit with flying - it's a world-wide ability to gtfo from a fight and your opponent has 0 ability to catch up with you, because you ignore terrain (in comparison to a ground chase, where obstacles exist and you can encounter mobs that may daze you, while your chaser is free of getting aggro). With flying you have a better chance at getting away. With flying you may chose toparticipate in PvP or not (as in - not fucking landing in the first place, and your opponent can't do shit about that besides maybe popping coolies and slow fall and trying to kill you with instants while you afk in air)

[Super Kami Dende]

TBC is superior to Vanilla in every way.

Very true, whilst I think Classic is a straight up waste of resources, I would play TBC for hours on end if I had the chance to on Official servers.

World/Questing was better.
Class Design/Balance was infinitely better.
Raiding was better.
PvP was Better.
Reward systems were Better
Professions were Better.

Literally anything Vanilla had, TBC did it far better.

- - - Updated - - -

Right. Do you think rogues getting away from PvP fights they don't want to be in simply correlate with their abilities like "stealth" or "vanish"? Same shit with flying - it's a world-wide ability to gtfo from a fight and your opponent has 0 ability to catch up with you, because you ignore terrain (in comparison to a ground chase, where obstacles exist and you can encounter mobs that may daze you, while your chaser is free of getting aggro). With flying you have a better chance at getting away. With flying you may chose toparticipate in PvP or not (as in - not fucking landing in the first place, and your opponent can't do shit about that besides maybe popping coolies and slow fall and trying to kill you with instants while you afk in air)

"People Fly in Airplanes for Convenience therefore Car Racing is Dead." If someone is actively avoiding PvP, chances are it wasn't going to be fun for either them or whoever tries to attack them. People that want to PvP will actively participate in it, most People that want World PvP don't want their target to actively participate.

It's why World PvP is and always will be trash.

[MHMabrito]

I guess it depends on the realm you were in. From what I remember the PVP was 24/7 in Hellfire/Nagrand

Same, Nagrand was a fucking hell hole to level in - more pvp than classic wow right now.

[SirCowdog]

What data? Do you need some sort of data to understand, that when a person has flying learned, all he needs to get away from you is to be ooc for 3 seconds (0 for a druid), then he's free, when without flying being ooc for 3 seconds will simply put him on +100% MS (at best), which gives you 3+ seconds to see him resurrect and move in his general direction to interrupt, or simply apply some sort of CC, then kill him.

Next time you'll ask for data to prove that water is wet, or punching yourself in the balls will hurt.

Or they could just log out while dead to escape. Should we claim that logging out is harmful to wpvp and have it removed?

The problem here is that there's a difference between the argument of "I don't like flying because people can get away from me if I don't change my tactics to compensate for it" and "Flying is harmful to WPVP".

If anything, flying is leveling the playing field by giving everyone a fight reset if they can get OOC long enough. And if you let a target get OOC for that long, that's your fault for not sticking to your target, or your target's skill in creating an opportunity to escape.

The only real problem I'm seeing here is in misinterpreting "my target got away" with "that's bad for PVP.

[Muajin76]

TBC is a VERY good PVE game and sucks at everything else. If raiding was the primary thing you did in WoW you usually loved it. Everything I say past here doesn't matter to you, because TBC might be the best raid/pve game ever made for a "raiding is all that matters" player. If PVE wasn't your primary focus, you can easily view it as highly overrated and point out that it started many of the systems and things that would eventually destroy WoW as we knew it.

Flying destroyed world pvp. Instantly. Nothing more to say about that.

Arena gear/arena led to the changes that destroyed Alterac Valley. ALL players gravitated towards the honor per minute idea to get the resilience gear they needed to start arena, instead of just having fun. Take the mentally ill repeat rank 14 grinders and give that mindset to ALL the players and that is what BG's became. Keep in mind that AV was cleverly designed to get pve players into pvp and that is ceased to exist as intended in TBC and the playerbase became very split with pvp and pve players. This got worse every expansion and now players who used to all be one big, awesome community are split into little groups.

Professions mean very little in pvp because world pvp is dead. Why bother. Rocketboots could be used if I remember right in arena, but could backfire. Hand enchants I think could be used to, but it really didn't matter. I hated arena and tried to block out every time I would get myself or someone else the 1850 weapon. The rest was a waste of time. I also usually played double dps because running around a pole for a long time was awful.

Arena becomes the barometer for everything, due to a dumb rating that autistic kids and streamers who helped ruin WoW, can brag about as they run around a pole with a healer in most comps (other than spriest, rogue, mage). Very few comps are viable and the pvp is awful and the makers of the original WoW said arena was a mistake.
engadget.com/2009/11/13/blizzard-arenas-were-a-mistake/[/url]

The better arena got, the more classes all became the same, which breaks and ruins larger forms of pvp and the "fun factor" and uniqueness of classes. The original designers knew this would happen. Fast forward and we now have unkillable healers when crosshealing happens in a BG or a 1 v 1 happens due to every class having to all have the same CC and chains. PvP outside of 3 v 3 is now GARBAGE. Healers HAVE to be OP in all other scenarios, just so a failed esport can continue.

Segregation of the playerbase happens for the first time with Arena and Heroics. This was not that big a problem in TBC because you only had heroic dungeons and one difficulty of raids. Now we have LFR, normal, heroic, mythic, mythic plus. It's just stupid.

Dailies start as a big thing in TBC. This is what happens when you break world pvp and segregate the playerbase to cater to the "eltiist jerks" (who now run WoW btw). You need dumbed down repeatable, zombie like content for the "casuals" or really nice people who weren't that great mechanically, who actually have very little to do in modern WoW. They eventually get bored/quit and all you are left with in the modern game is LFR/daily zombies who listen to streamers they are so bored and the 1 percent that no one could stand to be around in vanilla.

In vanilla these mechanically deficient players could be "carried" but no one said carried because people weren't all aholes and they could contribute big time to a guild through professions, farming, running 5 mans and gearing up offtanks and dps. They could also pvp with you, world pvp, have consumables that gave them an edge etc. Modern WoW literally separates you from people you grew up playing this game with and rewards you for abandoning them with progression. Vanilla never did that.

People claim vanilla was not casual friendly. That's complete BS. It had the most to do for casual players of any expansion. Everything took time, but you always had something to do.

TLDR. TBC introduced too many catch up systems, flying killed world pvp, arena killed classes being unique and broke all other forums of pvp except 3 v 3, segregation of pve content got out of control eventually and further led to class homogenization, it was the first implemenation of a group finder (no one used it), dailies replaced organic pvp and farming content, old world is now useless.

Regardless of the expac, there are always haters and lovers of said expansion. I have friends that swear on the bible that TBC sucked ass yet others praise it. Each expac in the game has its lovers and haters.

[SirCowdog]

That guild example was just an anecdote. The real take away from that example is that world pvp is unavoidable (largely) without flying, and massively avoidable with flying. That is how the mechanic works. It is not up for debate.

Every other reason for diminished pvp in the equation doesn't change that whatever world pvp exists afterwards is still diminished further by the avoidant nature of the flying mechanic.

Claiming that something is not up for debate is not evidence, or a supporting argument.

Ans PVP os absolutely avoidable without flying. You see someone coming, you mount up amd leave. Or log out. Or take the death and rez at the GY.

You're falling into the trap of over-exaggeration again. Flight does not make you immune to being attacked. You can't mount in combat. And if your target is aware enough, flying or not, they'll be able to escape. Or take the death then escape.

The mistake you're making is in the assumption that if combat didn't happen PVP didn't happen. But the moment a player is aware of you and seeks to escape, the battle of minds and tactics has already begun. If he sees you with enough time to mount and escape, you failed in your attack. That's not the fault of flying. That's your fault for having a poor vector.

And if you're both in the air waiting for help to arrive or for the other player to make a mistake and land, that's still PVP even if combat isn't actively happening. You're denying your target their PVE objective, but they're denying you an easy kill.

All flying does is change the tactics of WPVP. That's only "bad" if you refuse to change your approach.

- - - Updated - - -

Killing someone in a concentrated area with flying: they rez and fly away, pvp over. Killing someone in a concentrated area without flying: they have to figure out how to deal with you, .

I see now. This isn't about flying being bad for pvp. It's about flying being bad for your ability to gank and camp.

[Mozu]

Claiming that something is not up for debate is not evidence, or a supporting argument.

Yes, it is not up for debate because that is what the mechanic is for. Saying "A screwdriver is meant to drive screws, and that isn't up for debate" does not require further evidence. That is the purpose of the tool.

Ans PVP os absolutely avoidable without flying. You see someone coming, you mount up amd leave. Or log out. Or take the death and rez at the GY.

You're falling into the trap of over-exaggeration again. Flight does not make you immune to being attacked. You can't mount in combat. And if your target is aware enough, flying or not, they'll be able to escape. Or take the death then escape.

This is wrong. Play classic sometime, and you'll understand just how wrong.

The mistake you're making is in the assumption that if combat didn't happen PVP didn't happen. But the moment a player is aware of you and seeks to escape, the battle of minds and tactics has already begun. If he sees you with enough time to mount and escape, you failed in your attack. That's not the fault of flying. That's your fault for having a poor vector.

And if you're both in the air waiting for help to arrive or for the other player to make a mistake and land, that's still PVP even if combat isn't actively happening. You're denying your target their PVE objective, but they're denying you an easy kill.

All flying does is change the tactics of WPVP. That's only "bad" if you refuse to change your approach.

Your argument is "two people flying in the air doing nothing IS pvp man!"? Yikes, no wonder we'll never see eye-to-eye here.

I see now. This isn't about flying being bad for pvp. It's about flying being bad for your ability to gank and camp.

Uh, yeah? Ganking and camping is part of pvp, and people being able to freely avoid it is stupid on a pvp server. Hint: You can gank people that are your level as well. The outside world being dangerous is the point of a pvp server. People that have some delusion about "fair fights only" are hilarious.

[Mendzia]

TBC is a VERY good PVE game.

This single thing is enough for me (that does not mean i agree with rest of your post).

[Charge me Doctor]

Or they could just log out while dead to escape. Should we claim that logging out is harmful to wpvp and have it removed?

The problem here is that there's a difference between the argument of "I don't like flying because people can get away from me if I don't change my tactics to compensate for it" and "Flying is harmful to WPVP".

If anything, flying is leveling the playing field by giving everyone a fight reset if they can get OOC long enough. And if you let a target get OOC for that long, that's your fault for not sticking to your target, or your target's skill in creating an opportunity to escape.

The only real problem I'm seeing here is in misinterpreting "my target got away" with "that's bad for PVP.

Logging out means that you don't play the game, by flying away you keep playing the game and keep doing whatever you want to do.

I have no clue where you get those arguments from, all i see here, in this discussion, is one person saying that flying reduces amount of wpvp interactions, and other says that it doesn't. Which doesn't make sense, because flying allows you to escape WPvP as long as you have some sort of long CC ability whatsoever (polymorph and gtfo). It's not an argument of it being harmful or not liking it, it's nature of flying - it allows you to avoid WPvP by its damn design. It simply reduces amount of WPvP interactions, because you won't be able to drag unwilling people into WPvP by corpse camping them (at least when doing it alone)

- - - Updated - - -

Ans PVP os absolutely avoidable without flying. You see someone coming, you mount up amd leave. Or log out. Or take the death and rez at the GY.

Yes, and guess what option gives a player more chances to not get bogged down into wpvp? Literally every option besides flying involves risk of penalty, being it a 10m debuff, long walk, being stuck at your dead body or not playing the game lol. You can also pick a combination of those, but no matter how you look at it - mounting up and going 150yrd into the air is going to beat literally any other option for "avoiding wpvp"

And speaking of avoidability - remember warmode before pathfinder? This "avoidable" wpvp was so avoidable, that forums were full of weeping players that they can't play. Now imagine the same thing with flying - you beelined to your belowed WQ, got killed before anyone could even load in, res on corpse, mount up and fly to another WQ. There will be no charge into your mounted ass with a follow up of druid roots, there will be nothing, because there is no flying combat in the game, you are virtually immune to interractions

[Anastacy]

"I understand why people love TBC, but...I don't."

[Ariktu]

Flying actually enhanced world PvP.

I think I pvped more during TBC than during any other expansion. I remember raids of Horde flying into cities and having to group up in raids to push them out.

Many of the new zones had often pvp battles going on. I am guessing you only played late into the expansion or maybe just had a strange server that missed all the world PvP action.

Early on arena was pretty fun since you could join a 5 man team play the minimum games to earn points and end up in a few weeks getting some gear. Of course after time they added ratings on most gear which killed it for those of us who just did it for fun and had bad groups.

I know I once did a 5 man all warrior group once that managed to actually win one match I think because the other team was so shocked at how bad the comp was they must not have tried.

For myself TBC was the best expansion although Lich King was right behind it.

[Veggie50]

While I agree arena played into the homogenization of classes, I disagree on other points.

Death of world PvP was instigated with instanced battlegrounds during classic wow. Wether this is a good or a bad thing, is highly debatable and strongly depends on personal preference. Flying did not eliminate world pvp entirely either, it did limit the ability to corpscamp someone.

What flying did do was limit world interaction. It became easier to bypass mobs, and terrain layour lost its importance. Arguably though, it also brought in a few new possibilities in terms of exploration with hight differentiation, and areas without paths leading to them.

I strongly disagree that TBC started the trend of player segregation by difficulty level with their heroic dungeons. You appear to be comparing them to current WoW's mythic dungeons, but in TBC this was not the case. Heroic dungeons were simply the level 70 variant of that dungeon, meaning that all dungeons stayed relevant. In my opinion that is quite brilliant design, which indeed carried over into future expansions.

Like any expansion, the additions and detractions TBC made were cool for some and bad for others. I for one am loving classic wow, and once TBC servers hit I'll happily transfer to those and have a fun time once more. I might do the same for WotLK servers, but after that I'm pretty sure I'll be done.

Not because everything after WotLK was shit. It wasn't, it just wasn't for me anymore. During WotLK I got annoyed with the copious amounts of catchup mechanics. While WoW was always a gear treadmill, during the end of WotLK I started feeling like I couldn't keep up with the treadmills pacing anymore. That's on me, not the game.

[Firedemon]

It definitely did kill the same KINDA of World PvP in classic. There's a pretty big difference between the organic WPvP we had in Vanilla vs the PvP centered around specific capture locations. I know they had these same kind of objectives in Classic, but it didn't feel like a blatant excuse for PvP servers to engage in PvP again like it kinda does in TBC content. I think the WPVP locations in Classic were more about engaging players on non PvP servers to try out PvP in specific delegated areas. It allowed them to dip their toes in without it being a gank fest.

Now I will say that I don't blame flying solely for killing off WPvP. I think it plays a part in the event, but I think there are definitely several other factors. What's the point in WPvP when you can just queue for an arena or BG to farm honor and get gear? Where's the fun in a massive scale battle for a specific location when the big capital city is a neutral PvP zone? You aren't inconveniencing the horde when you're also inconveniencing yourself by killing NPCs. There was a lot of fun to be had walking into Ironforge (cuz let's be honest that was the main Alliance city) and just absolutely destroying every NPC.

I don't know where you played but on my server there was a lot of world pvp activity. From objective pvp to single ganks, to raping at netherwing, sethekk and isle and boss kites in cities (I played alliance at the time and was kiting anachronos to Org) and to abusing terrain (gandgetzan inn top until they made the guards throw you off), top of caravan in terokkar etc.
Also instanced pvp was part of vanilla, you can't possibly claim that it was a tbc thing.
And lastly, probably a lot of people played tbc on private servers with crap population and several years later when people just didn't care about it anymore.

[Granyala]

Killing someone in a concentrated area with flying: they rez and fly away, pvp over. Killing someone in a concentrated area without flying: they have to figure out how to deal with you, whether it's friends or getting on their mains or calling for help in chat. It's a much better, social system that also has the benefit of more pvp and less avoidance (because it's not possible, largely). I've experienced it personally on classic in STV and Hillsbrad the last few weeks.

Uuh no.
If they can't escape the PvP they just log onto another character or log off entirely.
At least that's what I always did when some ganking moron wouldn't let me quest in peace.

It's just not worth wasting time on these people.

- - - Updated - - -

It's why World PvP is and always will be trash.

wPvP is only popular because it gives people the "carte blanche" to be an asshole.
Simple as that.

I completely agree with your assessment.

[DoctorWhose]

You need dumbed down repeatable, zombie like content for the "casuals"

You mean like repgrinds in Classic, consisting of killing the same mob over and over again and having repeatable quests of having to hand in the same item over and over again?

[wholol]

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...t-boring-quick

We get it, you don't like TBC. No need to create a new account every month and start a new thread about it.

Kudos for picking on that too, I thought this post looked familiar.

I can't believe this guy is making new accounts just to promote classic+ jeez.

it's like " tbc sux ! don't make it after classic plz cause I want classic+".

[Black Goat]

What data? Do you need some sort of data to understand, that when a person has flying learned, all he needs to get away from you is to be ooc for 3 seconds (0 for a druid), then he's free, when without flying being ooc for 3 seconds will simply put him on +100% MS (at best), which gives you 3+ seconds to see him resurrect and move in his general direction to interrupt, or simply apply some sort of CC, then kill him.

Next time you'll ask for data to prove that water is wet, or punching yourself in the balls will hurt.

Still doesn't provide definitive proof that flying diminished WPVP overall, which is the discussion I'm having. Your example is probably what you do when challenged, but is not indicative of WPVP as a whole. That's the problem so far, you people find one example of how it might take away from WPVP, and you take that to the bank as if it's exemplary of ALL WPVP. Wrong.

Unfortunately for you, water being wet is not equivalent to flying hurting/helping WPVP. One is definitive, the other is merely your opinion. Small minds typically think in small patterns. For example, when discussing the topic of WPVP, your scope seems limited to the "gank scenario" which is but a tiny fraction of WPVP content. What about the rise in participation from being able to fly? What about those who fly giving support to those on the ground? There are endless scenarios, so please try harder than giving me "but, but they can get away faster". It's stale.

[SirCowdog]

Logging out means that you don't play the game, by flying away you keep playing the game and keep doing whatever you want to do.

That's not a completely true statement, and is VERY misleading if I was to be cynical about it. Because when dead, you're only able to "play" the game in the extremely limited sense of running back to your body, or taking the rez penalty. Likewise, if you're up against someone who attacked you while you're were attempting to do non-PVP tasks, you're also not able to play the game in the way you want.

Someone earlier brought up a very good point in that if someone flies away from you, it's because they have no interest in doing PVP. Do you think that same person will suddenly choose to PVP with you just because they can't fly away? Or is it more likely that they'll just log out, take a rez sickness, or otherwise avoid PVP?

The flaw here is in assuming that simply removing flight will magically change someone's mind and fix WPVP. It won't. At BEST it allows one person to corpse camp more effectively, and force someone who has no interest in PVPing against a superior foe when their real aim is to complete a PVE task. How can I say this with authority? Because if the person doesn't fly away, they would stay to fight you regardless of what type of mount they have.

And I even allowed for this in my response to Mozu, when I compared how much "harm" flying was doing when compared to players choosing BGs or Arena over WPVP. Sure, in a very few cases someone will call for a troup of friends to come provide you with a battle. But the amount of times you gain the benefit of such a situation is so seldom, when looked at on the full scale of the game, as to be insignificant.

I have no clue where you get those arguments from, all i see here, in this discussion, is one person saying that flying reduces amount of wpvp interactions, and other says that it doesn't.

That's not actually what I'm saying though. Misunderstanding or misrepresenting what I'm actually saying is where you're getting confused.

My point - in response to the claim that Flying is a major factor in the decline of WPVP - is that while it's true that flying causes some amount of change(see: my target got away and I'm pissed about it) to WPVP, that the amount of "harm" that it's actually doing when compared to other sources drawing players out of WPVP is so insignificant as to be a non-factor.

Which doesn't make sense, because flying allows you to escape WPvP as long as you have some sort of long CC ability whatsoever (polymorph and gtfo). It's not an argument of it being harmful or not liking it, it's nature of flying - it allows you to avoid WPvP by its damn design. It simply reduces amount of WPvP interactions, because you won't be able to drag unwilling people into WPvP by corpse camping them (at least when doing it alone)

And why is that even a bad thing? Are you seriously going to defend corpse camping as a type of WPVP that the game should be focusing on. That a feature of the game that is deeply beloved by many people should outright be removed from the game so that some shitty low-level PVPer can get their jollies by forcing a player to choose between logging off or getting repeatedly killed by an opponent he has almost no chance of defeating?

How about instead of arguing for such an extreme measure to facilitate the worst kind of behavior, people in favor of WPVP advocate for more significant WPVP objectives and locations of importance for players to gather. And reasons to stay there long enough for WPVP to happen organically? Territory to control with tangible rewards on par, or better, than just AFKing in a BG.

The entire basis of the argument to remove flying so people can corpse camp is....forgive my language....so fucked and twisted that it amazes me that anyone could possibly be seriously in favor of it. If you want better WPVP, removing flight is absolutely NOT the way to go about arguing for it.

Yes, and guess what option gives a player more chances to not get bogged down into wpvp? Literally every option besides flying involves risk of penalty, being it a 10m debuff, long walk, being stuck at your dead body or not playing the game lol. You can also pick a combination of those, but no matter how you look at it - mounting up and going 150yrd into the air is going to beat literally any other option for "avoiding wpvp"

You forgot to mention that flying away carries the penalty of not being able to do what you were there to do before the competition arrived. It may include losing a valuable gathering resource, or rare mob, or quest objective being ceded to the opposing player.

Again, the problem here is that people are taking an overly simplistic view of their definition of WPVP. It's not always just about getting a kill. Sometimes it actually is about just chasing off the opposition. Causing a player to flee is often a victory.

And speaking of avoidability - remember warmode before pathfinder? This "avoidable" wpvp was so avoidable, that forums were full of weeping players that they can't play.

Oh boo fucking hoo! Those baddie alliance players won't come out and get obliterated by overwhelming force! That's not fair!

Gimme a fucking break. This isn't an argument that has anything to do with flight. At best it's an example of WPVP being in decline for reasons OTHER than flying.

Now imagine the same thing with flying - you beelined to your belowed WQ, got killed before anyone could even load in, res on corpse, mount up and fly to another WQ. There will be no charge into your mounted ass with a follow up of druid roots, there will be nothing, because there is no flying combat in the game, you are virtually immune to interractions

You forgot to mention the WPVP net gun. You also are not considering my previous point about what actually constitutes PVP. Just because you don't get a kill doesn't mean you didn't still engage in PVP.


I see the real issue here is that there's a fundamental disagreement on what WPVP really is. Obviously to some people it's ganking and corpse camping, hoping that "an epic battle" magically appears before them. From my perspective of having played open world or freeform PVP in many games, I believe otherwise, as I've described above. Understand where I'm coming from and you'll start to see why I look at the bigger picture, and why I think it's so ridiculous to scapegoat flight when there are so many other, larger, factors in the equation.

[Octoberfest99]

Yes, it is not up for debate because that is what the mechanic is for. Saying "A screwdriver is meant to drive screws, and that isn't up for debate" does not require further evidence. That is the purpose of the tool.



This is wrong. Play classic sometime, and you'll understand just how wrong.



Your argument is "two people flying in the air doing nothing IS pvp man!"? Yikes, no wonder we'll never see eye-to-eye here.



Uh, yeah? Ganking and camping is part of pvp, and people being able to freely avoid it is stupid on a pvp server. Hint: You can gank people that are your level as well. The outside world being dangerous is the point of a pvp server. People that have some delusion about "fair fights only" are hilarious.

Flying changed wpvp, but it did not kill it. Yes, flying allows players to avoid some wpvp, but you still have to land and stay on the ground at some point, if you want harvest resources or kill mobs for quests. Flying also allows gankers to swoop down quickly and attack players engaged in combat with mobs.

Players who wanted to avoid wpvp before flying had alternatives available. If you saw opposing players coming you could mount and try and escape; you could also take rez sickness and hearth; or, in more extreme cases you could log out and then log in on an alt.

I played Vanilla, TBC, and Classic on pvp realms. At least on my realm, there was active wpvp even with flying in TBC. But, there were also players who played on pvp realms who tried there best to avoid pvp. Not every horde I encountered engaged in pvp when they saw me, and I did not always engage them.

[wholol]

1) It's the same guy from last week and the week before that making new accounts and starting all these anti-TBC threads.

2) regardless of what anyone says, TBC was one of the most well-liked/played expansions of all time, so much so that blizzard actually made another expansion (legion) themed after it and it was a huge success, comes to show it doesn't matter what a few minorities say, blizzard will always follow the data and so far the data is incredibly in TBC's favor.