I understand WHY people love TBC, but....

[Deferionus]

I would bet about 80 percent of the people talking about how great TBC is never got out of Kara and started in TBC and actually liked the VANILLA leveling experience that was still there. The other 20 percent are just really hardcore PVE'rs that hate PVP. They will get bored of TBC by the time they hit Hyjal and go back to the modern game. The modern game was made for them, by one of them (Ion). That's why it sucks. Want a modern TBC play BFA. It's the same thing. Bad PVP, bad wpvp, bg's that are pointless, healers that make the game not fun and all that matters in the bg due to a failed minigame and CC chains and a focus on raids. Ion recreated TBC. It sucked then and it sucks now unless all you care about is raiding.

Sorry, but I am max level on classic and just find myself wanting TBC more and more. Those arenas were one of the best additions ever made to the game. World PvP was very much alive as I engaged in tons of it while farming my epic flying mount. The above post about fighting over resources is very true. You are right that homogenization happened as a result of arena, but the affects of that was felt in future expacs, not in TBC itself. in TBC they put arenas in the game and then were like "well shit, this is hard to balance." The imbalance of TBC actually gave it some charm imo. Far as BGs I did a shit ton of em.


TBC was classic done right. If it comes out then the classic servers will lose a fair bit of their population because BC will prove to be better. Maybe this is what you are afraid of since you prefer classic and know the majority would disagree with you.

[Mask]

1) It's the same guy from last week and the week before that making new accounts and starting all these anti-TBC threads.

2) regardless of what anyone says, TBC was one of the most well-liked/played expansions of all time, so much so that blizzard actually made another expansion (legion) themed after it and it was a huge success, comes to show it doesn't matter what a few minorities say, blizzard will always follow the data and so far the data is incredibly in TBC's favor.

TBC was the best expansion, sure, but that is mostly because the game held on to some of its vanilla roots. It was still a massive downgrade that hurt the future of the game in unfortunate ways.

Vanilla 10/10
TBC 7/10
WotLK 6/10
Cata 2/10
MoP 5/10
WoD 1/10
Legion 7/10
Bfa 2/10

[GhostShaman]

I guess it depends on the realm you were in. From what I remember the PVP was 24/7 in Hellfire/Nagrand

^ This, I played on 3 servers (friends spread across all three) wPVP was always going on. Not so much in Azeroth, but a ton in Outland. I will still argue that the queue systems killed wpvp (BGs, Arenas, Etc..) and not flying.

[erifwodahs]

Logging out means that you don't play the game, by flying away you keep playing the game and keep doing whatever you want to do.

I have no clue where you get those arguments from, all i see here, in this discussion, is one person saying that flying reduces amount of wpvp interactions, and other says that it doesn't. Which doesn't make sense, because flying allows you to escape WPvP as long as you have some sort of long CC ability whatsoever (polymorph and gtfo). It's not an argument of it being harmful or not liking it, it's nature of flying - it allows you to avoid WPvP by its damn design. It simply reduces amount of WPvP interactions, because you won't be able to drag unwilling people into WPvP by corpse camping them (at least when doing it alone)

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Yes, and guess what option gives a player more chances to not get bogged down into wpvp? Literally every option besides flying involves risk of penalty, being it a 10m debuff, long walk, being stuck at your dead body or not playing the game lol. You can also pick a combination of those, but no matter how you look at it - mounting up and going 150yrd into the air is going to beat literally any other option for "avoiding wpvp"

And speaking of avoidability - remember warmode before pathfinder? This "avoidable" wpvp was so avoidable, that forums were full of weeping players that they can't play. Now imagine the same thing with flying - you beelined to your belowed WQ, got killed before anyone could even load in, res on corpse, mount up and fly to another WQ. There will be no charge into your mounted ass with a follow up of druid roots, there will be nothing, because there is no flying combat in the game, you are virtually immune to interractions

You clearly are not playing in retail mate. People who want to pvp are in war mode and they are doing WPvP. Some may be crying, because they get advantage for being in war mode but want none of pvp. People who want world pvp are not avoiding it. Or are you complaining, that people can run away from gank parties? We have like 100 BGs in retail too. If you want to pvp, you have literally all the chances. And what is so majestic about world pvp in itself? If someone loves pvp so much, what's wrong with it being in bgs ? Fair x vs x amount of players on level ground and not something like "this guys is 40% hp and has not seen me". I mean you could say it makes people to interact and get friends to help and creates grp vs grp pvp... which is same as BG pvp.

[Essem]

World pvp/ganking was definitely there in TBC. You could fly around on your mount all you like, but if you wanna farm something you gotta land and kill mobs. And if *you* specifically wanna farm at that spot, you can bet someone else wants too as well. Elemental Plateau in Nagrand anyone? There is going to be enough pvp up there to make you vomit.

Any area where you can farm Motes of Shadow/fire/water/air/ etc will be contested. Outside dungeons and raids, same as classic atm. When daily hubs are out those areas too. TBC did not ruin world pvp, there is plenty.

[Mukind]

The entire first 5 years I played wow, starting from halfway through vanilla, was on a pvp server. And yes, a lot of people chased hinor in TBC to get easier access to some forms gear. This is where the complaints about "wellfare epix" began.

But more importantly was the simple fact that people didn't have to specifically risk the open world in order to get the enjoyment of pvp. A person could waste their time wandering the open looking for a good fight, often finding only people who wanted to farm or run away....or they could go into a Battleground or arena where they had a guaranteed fight with equal numbers and better rewards.

It might not be true for everyone, but on the scale of server groups tje vast majority of players looked at the value proposition and didn't choose the open world for their pvp time.

I get why so many people look at the correlation between flying and the open world. It's an easy conclusion to come to, even if it's wrong. You go i to the open world and have nothing but slim picking. And all you see are people flying from point to point ignoring your attempts to fight them.

Why? Because those people got their pvp fix in BGs and Arena and are flying to PVE goals. So it looks like flying is the cause because that's what you see. But in truth it's what you DON'T see that's the real reason.

wpvp was effecient in wow for a few months from a honor perspecitve

not relevant at all relative to flying mounts

just stop, no idea what you're talking about

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I'm waiting specifically for arenas.

TBC arenas were the best the game's pvp has ever been.

AV was only fun if you were a ranged or a warrior with 5 pocket healers.


"not many arena comps being viable"
is also a big myth

every single class had multiple rank1 viable comps in multiple brakets.
TBC had a ton of class viability.

you could even play 2 dps or 3 dps comps. in 2s and 3s, which is nowadays unplayable.

TBC also brought at least 1 or 2 of the most iconic abilities to most classes (cyclone, ice lance, cloak of shadows, bloodlust, etc etc etc) and was overall a MASSIVE improvement of class design for every single class. without exception.

"herp derp pvp sucks because you hug a pillar and run around"

arenas actually took a lot of skill.
unlike spamming blizzard in AV.

sure, TBC fucked up with flying, and screwing up world pvp. (albeit isle of queldanas brought it back in spades)

but arenas more than make up for it.

#notaste

#deathmatchmatchisterrible

#wtfpeople

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World pvp/ganking was definitely there in TBC. You could fly around on your mount all you like, but if you wanna farm something you gotta land and kill mobs. And if *you* specifically wanna farm at that spot, you can bet someone else wants too as well. Elemental Plateau in Nagrand anyone? There is going to be enough pvp up there to make you vomit.

Any area where you can farm Motes of Shadow/fire/water/air/ etc will be contested. Outside dungeons and raids, same as classic atm. When daily hubs are out those areas too. TBC did not ruin world pvp, there is plenty.

yea because Wpvp wouldnt have been a lot better if you had to fight before what you wanted was in draw...?

You just explained why it killed wpvp lol

[salate]

I remember TBC fights, they were long, interesting, breathtaking.

I guess people's hate towards flying is easily describable. When I had 60% flying mount and very rich guy had 280 flying I had no chance to run away from my enemy. The only reason why PVP could be destoyed by flyign > your enemies run away. thats it.

I did only pvp during TBC and man, that was cool. I loved everything.

Wotlk destroyed pvp for me lol

[spdr]

some raids where fun like zul'aman, karazan, BT. but not the best

im starting to think you did not play TBC. you can easily fly to halaa, the 3 towers in HFP, Auchidon, and have lots of fun with word pvp. remember it was only on outland that you could actually fly.Back in Azeroth you still had Tarrenmill , Xroads, Gadjetzan, the tower in Westfall which fights erputed for 1-2 hours. and many more raid pvp in cities.

we can also had the ablity to show off our 1850 rating weapons and 2000 helms back then. it was hella fun.

Wasnt it shoulders? On my server nagrand pvp was almost non existent. The hellfire one would occasionally happen because 60s wanted to do the quests for the towers. World pvp on isle of queldanas was almost 24/7 though.

[deenman]

Are you suggesting that the wpvp you saw would've been the same or less without flying? What a ridiculous claim.

Flying honestly adds to the danger,not knowing someone could swoop in on you at anytime,and it added to the urgency of killign someone so they dont get away

[Mukind]

Flying honestly adds to the danger,not knowing someone could swoop in on you at anytime,and it added to the urgency of killign someone so they dont get away

except the fact you never have to run through chokes adn you've just reduced the population density by a factor of 10...Sure

The amount of stupidity in this thread is galling

[Flurryfang]

...Wait what?

TBC was were i actually started to do PVP, doing arenas as a big thing and a system were created around that.

World PVP can go to hell if you got a good PVP system and enviroment. Classes were fun in PVP, many of the bugs/OPness of Vanilla got fixed and it actually felt somewhat competative.

As some have said before in this thread, everything got better in TBC. Vanilla was the testing ground, making a foundation and TBC built upon that. Nothing was replaced, nothing was removed, everything was an addition or an improvement. It became a different game for sure, which is why some people love Vanilla more, but WoW became an obvious better game with TBC.

[Mukind]

...Wait what?

TBC was were i actually started to do PVP, doing arenas as a big thing and a system were created around that.

World PVP can go to hell if you got a good PVP system and enviroment. Classes were fun in PVP, many of the bugs/OPness of Vanilla got fixed and it actually felt somewhat competative.

As some have said before in this thread, everything got better in TBC. Vanilla was the testing ground, making a foundation and TBC built upon that. Nothing was replaced, nothing was removed, everything was an addition or an improvement. It became a different game for sure, which is why some people love Vanilla more, but WoW became an obvious better game with TBC.

Arena is for plebs you have no taste thanks for ruining tab targeting pvp brah

Had they added in a BG system with MMR, then we'd be talking. And not done this limited action BS where u can't use the items u farm int he world....

Terrible limited action set BS

All of you saying you love arena. Fuck you plebs

[Gorgodeus]

Couldn't agree more. Flying destroyed World PVP and removed a ton of player interaction.

The usual bullshit response. Please enlighten us on how that happened. Because anyone why wanted to pvp out in the world did so. Those who did not, used flying to avoid it, as best they could.

You see, PvP = Player vs Player

Not Player vs Someone who has no desire at this moment to fight.

[Heathy]

Arena is for plebs you have no taste thanks for ruining tab targeting pvp brah

Had they added in a BG system with MMR, then we'd be talking. And not done this limited action BS where u can't use the items u farm int he world....

Terrible limited action set BS

All of you saying you love arena. Fuck you plebs

so you're not a pleb for wanting unbalanced pvp? what you're saying is you don't like arenas because you can't use 100 different niche consumable items you farmed from levelling, like one time reward CC items and all sorts of items on various differernt separate cooldowns. and that it ended up being mostly just class vs class, no meta bullshit.

hell i don't do pvp that much at all, but even i can see why you can have it be that FFA, it would be impossible to balance that meta. it would have just created too many metas that would detract entirely from the point of the arena, its not about, who can farm the most bullshit consumables to use in the arena its meant to be about the classes. no tricks no or minimal meta, just class v class, gear vs gear. in a structured way.

[Mukind]

so you're not a pleb for wanting unbalanced pvp? what you're saying is you don't like arenas because you can't use 100 different niche consumable items you farmed from levelling, like one time reward CC items and all sorts of items on various differernt separate cooldowns. and that it ended up being mostly just class vs class, no meta bullshit.

hell i don't do pvp that much at all, but even i can see why you can have it be that FFA, it would be impossible to balance that meta. it would have just created too many metas that would detract entirely from the point of the arena, its not about, who can farm the most bullshit consumables to use in the arena its meant to be about the classes.

You don't need class balance with objectives, that's the beauty of it. Only faction balance. Which is all they needed to fix in TBC

You need perfect balance for deathmatch, which only comes through homogeneity.

I have spent the last couple years crapping on "glads" who have no idea what they're doing in real PvP where there is an objective not just some flow chart with a skirmish lol

It's terrible. Anyone who likes arena has no taste. Being good at arena doesn't make you bad at objective PvP. But being good at arena means nothing but you know the matchup and can hump a pillar

Deathmatch is cancer

[Black Goat]

It's terrible. Anyone who likes arena has no taste. Being good at arena doesn't make you bad at objective PvP. But being good at arena means nothing but you know the matchup and can hump a pillar

Deathmatch is cancer

Yeah, totally. Which is why there's a National Arena Championship circuit.

Arena takes far more skill than AB, WSG, AV, etc, ever hoped to. Objectives in Warcraft BGs are elementary if the people on your team have a modicum of common sense.

I have spent the last couple years crapping on "glads" who have no idea what they're doing in real PvP where there is an objective not just some flow chart with a skirmish lol

Wow, man. Look at you go, just crapping all over us "fake PVPers" that would literally destroy you 1v1. We have our cool titles and mounts, and yet here you are... crapping all over us while you guard Stables, huh? What a time to be alive.

EDIT: For the sake of fairness, I'm not saying Battlegrounds don't require skill. They certainly do.

[Kallor]

I did so much world pvp in TBC, probably more than in all the other expansions put together. I remember using mounts to fly up in trees, and mass dot hordes below me. Was pretty funny. World pvp areas were pretty much anywhere you farmed (Elemental Plateau/Skettis/Ogri'la/Sunwell area when that got there), as well as designated pvp areas (middle of Nagrand, Hellfire, etc).

TBC is easily my favorite expansion to PVP in. I'll admit that's partly because I played Warlock, and felt like a GOD (at least until the bursty pre-wotlk patch), but still...

[andrewjoy]

Whist i love vanilla, especially the early stages of it, TBC is the better game in almost every way. I do agree arenas where a bit of an issue and i was not a fan of pvp resilience but apart from that TBC was incredible.

Don't forget almost all the cool shit from vanilla was still doable in TBC ( weapon quests class quests even the AQ40 opening quest ( no mount/title tho). It was a shame all the awesome instances like DM where less used once people went to TBC but they where replaced with some of the best 5 man content ever put into the game.

And whist we are at it... wrath. Even tho 1/2 the raids where a bit wank the other half where amazing, ulduar and ICC where just the best! And you had cool achievements to do.

My perfect wow would be a condensed version of wrath as a patch to TBC, take out the less interesting zones and crap raids and just have ulduar and ICC! And back port achievements !

Everything after wrath was just crap. Even if the setting for legion and pandaria where cool ( pandaria gets too much hate imo, its the better of the post cata crap IMO)

[Flurryfang]

Yep. TBC is nothing more like Vanilla on steroids.

Arena is for plebs you have no taste thanks for ruining tab targeting pvp brah

Had they added in a BG system with MMR, then we'd be talking. And not done this limited action BS where u can't use the items u farm int he world....

Terrible limited action set BS

All of you saying you love arena. Fuck you plebs

You seem to not get the point about having fun in BGs, where there is a power difference between the players.

It was actually fun to join a BG and then finding the strongest opponent on the sider and seeing him either completly smashing or getting grouped. It created a difference between matches, making some EoTS matches seem quite epic or as a fight. Im not saying, that it did not give some bad experiences, but man did it give experiences xD

Just because Arena was quite good, does not mean that BGs weren't good either. Games have worked fine without MMR for many years and it still does today in some areas.

[phattsao]

I agree with most of the OP. TBC was when I quit WoW for the first time. I remember it being very punishing on melee, like every mob in heroics did a 360 cleave, so bringing melee was frowned upon. The attunements were poorly designed. You had to do a 25 man, then a 10 man, to get attuned to other 25 mans? And all of this coming from a 40 man raid team.

It killed a lot of guilds, including mine. Our Kara runs became the "A team", then the "B team", then the crap that was left over kind of got funneled into one of those if there was room. But we wanted them all back to fill the raid when it was time for Serpentshrine...

Arenas were the beginning of the end of class balance. Only certain specs could excel at them, so only certain specs were played. This is also when Ghostcrawler showed up and started to homogenize all of the classes, except frost mages of course, who got to stay OP for the next 4 xpacs or so.