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  1. #61
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    Honestly, for a BoE with significant monetary value, everyone should have equal priority when rolling on it.

    So what if the tank needs it? He can always hop onto the Auction House and buy one. In essence, the item is worth nothing more than gold to the tank...just like for everyone else.

    In an ideal world full of honest players, no one should roll need on the item. But given that you can't trust random strangers to always be honest, a more pragmatic approach is that everyone rolls need. What that rogue did btw was an awesome display of honesty and integrity. The tank should stop whining and recognise that the outcome was 100% fair.

    Also, nothing stops the winner of the roll from charitably donating their item to the tank if they feel that would be "right" - especially applicable if the tank is a friend or guildie.

  2. #62
    Had a very similar predicament with robe of the archmage pattern on my mage dropping when I was the only mage in the group. Was miffed to say the least when everyone rolled need; not as big a deal as some other items for sure but it still put a sour taste in my mouth.

    I can see the argument for needing it, but what’s a lot of gold to one person may not be a lot to another; Where’s the line? Or can I start rolling on bops with a high vendor price?
    Last edited by Zypherz; 2019-10-22 at 04:34 PM.

  3. #63
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    Everyone should roll Need on BOEs to spare the drama and the Tank should have had the QS book on res if he wanted it so bad.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    Had a very similar predicament with robe of the archmage pattern on my mage dropping when I was the only mage in the group. Was miffed to say the least when everyone rolled need; not as big a deal as some other items for sure but it still put a sour taste in my mouth.

    I can see the argument for needing it, but what’s a lot of gold to one person may not be a lot to another; Where’s the line? Or can I start rolling on bops with a high vendor price?
    The line isn't that blurred, and this situation clearly only applies to BoEs, where the amount someone makes from selling it will be roughly equal to the amount someone would save by not having to buy it.
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  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Having a right to an item is basically a roll window popping up and giving you a choice which roll you are going to make, everyone who participated in a dungeon has a right to roll on an item, nothing stops you from rolling need on it but yourself, that's the whole point. A discussion about who should get what loot rarely happens in a pug anyways.

    Having a right to an item doesn't mean that it automatically belongs to you, it's just gives you an option to make a decision - do you think that you need those 1g from selling that blue item? The right answer is "no", because this 1g is barely worth getting kicked out of a dungeon, you'll get this 1g on next pack of mobs most likely. So, if you feel like rolling need on an item you don't need - go for it, but don't be surprised when you'll have to look for another group, losing hours of your gametime for just 1g.

    Basically what i mean that any party member has a right for any item dropped in a dungeon, it's up to them if they want to end their run right here and right now by doing something stupid like rolling on a bis item of another class just to piss them off. I don't mean that you should roll on BiS BoPs of other classes because you feel like you need this 1-5g from vendoring it, if you really that short on cash you just ask people to dump their trash into you, it'll give you much more gold for that run than getting kicked out of dungeon right away.
    That's why we had this "disenchant" option back in wotlk - because people started needing on literally everything in random dungeons; and later some roles has lost their right to roll on items they can't use (which kinda makes sense to me, but sadly it's not implemented in game, and following that logic eventually leads us to "personal loot" conclusion which many players don't like for some reason)
    So you want the argument about effort required to only apply in the one case but not all because of the greed threshold. Which is precisely what I've been saying all along. Trying to make out that it is a valid argument to use in the one case but not in the other is a fallacy. You're not saying anything new here you're just saying "It OUGHT to only apply in those cases where the value of the item is above X threshold of value" which is an inherently greedy attitude to take. Don't take this personally, I stated in my opening post that it was basically the consensus in the WoW community. Just own it and stop pretending its anything other than greed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Honestly, for a BoE with significant monetary value, everyone should have equal priority when rolling on it.
    Case in point. And again as I opened with - see every other thread about loot etiquette.
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
    Quote Originally Posted by mojusk View Post
    Oh, and stop being a "didn't do that in vanilla"-police. If we're doing something now that we didnt do back then, it's not because we had some sorta unwritten moral code back then, it's because we hadn't thought of it yet.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    So you want the argument about effort required to only apply in the one case but not all because of the greed threshold. Which is precisely what I've been saying all along. Trying to make out that it is a valid argument to use in the one case but not in the other is a fallacy. You're not saying anything new here you're just saying "It OUGHT to only apply in those cases where the value of the item is above X threshold of value" which is an inherently greedy attitude to take. Don't take this personally, I stated in my opening post that it was basically the consensus in the WoW community. Just own it and stop pretending its anything other than greed.
    No, this argument applies to everything dropped during a dungeon run, you can roll on anything, it doesn't mean that you should do that, because you are dealing with other players and you risk putting yourself in a situation where you simply waste your own time by being kicked constantly. You still have your right to do it as a group member, "need" button is not grayed out, roll still appears (unlike in a case of you not finishing Moira questline, when loot belongs only to those who completed it) but it doesn't make you immune to consequences. You know, even if someone has dibs on certain item, which was discussed beforehand and you agreed with that - it still doesn't remove your right to roll need on it, you just have to weight your time against that miniscule gain you'll get from that chance.

    Imagine playing BB and doing some crazy agi2 dodge rolls into a tackle zone - you have the right to do it, it's clearly stated in the rules that you can do that, game won't stop you from doing that, but you have to think if this risk is worth taking.
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  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    No, this argument applies to everything dropped during a dungeon run, you can roll on anything, it doesn't mean that you should do that, because you are dealing with other players and you risk putting yourself in a situation where you simply waste your own time by being kicked constantly. You still have your right to do it as a group member, "need" button is not grayed out, roll still appears (unlike in a case of you not finishing Moira questline, when loot belongs only to those who completed it) but it doesn't make you immune to consequences. You know, even if someone has dibs on certain item, which was discussed beforehand and you agreed with that - it still doesn't remove your right to roll need on it, you just have to weight your time against that miniscule gain you'll get from that chance.

    Imagine playing BB and doing some crazy agi2 dodge rolls into a tackle zone - you have the right to do it, it's clearly stated in the rules that you can do that, game won't stop you from doing that, but you have to think if this risk is worth taking.
    Firstly love the Blood Bowl reference

    And the argument you've made applies to those cases where Edgemasters or Furors drops too, but you* don't feel the rogue who rolls on them should be kicked and ostracised because the value of the item is higher, which is the only salient difference to the priest in his situation. Even the warrior is going to replace that item eventually and it's not as though they have lost any opportunity to get it to drop again.

    I'm not even really trying to condemn the behaviour outright, I just think people should be more honest about what it is, instead of using weasel arguments to try to validate it.

    *The wider WoW community

    OUt of curiosity, if the vendor value of BoP blues was increased fifty fold would it justify everyone needing on them or would that still fall under "shitty behaviour that should get you ostracised"?
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Damnit hubcap, you are such a retard.
    Quote Originally Posted by mojusk View Post
    Oh, and stop being a "didn't do that in vanilla"-police. If we're doing something now that we didnt do back then, it's not because we had some sorta unwritten moral code back then, it's because we hadn't thought of it yet.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Notdev View Post
    The line isn't that blurred, and this situation clearly only applies to BoEs, where the amount someone makes from selling it will be roughly equal to the amount someone would save by not having to buy it.
    Then surely with that logic I can roll need on greens whenever I believe there to be monetary value?

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    Had a very similar predicament with robe of the archmage pattern on my mage dropping when I was the only mage in the group. Was miffed to say the least when everyone rolled need; not as big a deal as some other items for sure but it still put a sour taste in my mouth.

    I can see the argument for needing it, but what’s a lot of gold to one person may not be a lot to another; Where’s the line? Or can I start rolling on bops with a high vendor price?
    U def have a right to Rez but u must say it if it's not a boe

    Otherwise free roll

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Rotted View Post
    I remember early TBC, someone had this toxic mentality on our server. He followed through and won said item. He got a bonus prize as well, of instantly becoming a known ninja on the server. No guild or group would take him and the guy eventually just disappeared. Either name changed or migrated.
    Well thankfully it isn't 2007.
    No collusion. No obstruction.

  11. #71
    Retail WoW loot meta has clearly leaked into Classic. Honestly I cant be too surprised. Fortunately I dont play with trash players who assume Needing for Gold is an actual thing. If you disagree you're wrong. But it doesnt matter anyway because I or anyone who is half way decent at the game wouldnt want to play with anyone with that mentality. So roll on whatever you want and enjoy being subpar.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Incarnia View Post
    Discuss the rules prior to killing the first mob in the dungeon? Safest would probably be to agree that everyone needs on epic boe's in pug groups, that way you eliminate the possibility for someone to easily ninja the item from the rest of the group.
    Nobody does this.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirbstermcgee View Post
    Retail WoW loot meta has clearly leaked into Classic. Honestly I cant be too surprised. Fortunately I dont play with trash players who assume Needing for Gold is an actual thing. If you disagree you're wrong. But it doesnt matter anyway because I or anyone who is half way decent at the game wouldnt want to play with anyone with that mentality. So roll on whatever you want and enjoy being subpar.
    edgy.

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  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirbstermcgee View Post
    Retail WoW loot meta has clearly leaked into Classic. Honestly I cant be too surprised. Fortunately I dont play with trash players who assume Needing for Gold is an actual thing. If you disagree you're wrong. But it doesnt matter anyway because I or anyone who is half way decent at the game wouldnt want to play with anyone with that mentality. So roll on whatever you want and enjoy being subpar.
    The other side of this argument is "keep getting loot ninjad and pretending your blacklisting makes any difference". Loot rolls don't even exist in retail, so your retail comment doesn't make sense. Also more recently in retail they put systems in place to prevent ninjas (needing a BoE binds it to you), but they don't exist in classic. Gotta get those shots in on retail when you can, eh?

    I dunno. I'm annoyed of ninjas. I still think the "all need" system for pricey boes is the best way to get rid of ninjas and people attempting to game the system, and is fairest to everyone.
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    This is an individual decision. What you will see from all previous threads on this topic is that peoples "code" or etiquette goes straight out the window the moment someone does something they dont agree with. People seem to come down off their high horse the moment someone does anything loot related they dont agree with, and it becomes a free for all. So it becomes a shoot first, or wait to be shot at first question.

    The only real "solution" is to run master loot, or run with friends.
    Master loot is one of the reasons I quit WoW, putting all your trust into one person and hoping they do the duty which sometimes they do not. Running with friends doesn't guarantee anything, friends betray. Often people are peer pressured into passing an item they really want and have been grinding a long time for.

    Never saw the logic behind "all greed" on items like Righteous Orbs and reputation marks. For some reason you're looked down upon if you click "need". Click "need" as well then!

    But yeah like someone above said, it's a form of prisoners' dilemma, Share or Shaft - youtube it. If you click "greed" and someone else clicks "need" you are the sucker. The difference here is your reputation on the server.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    Then surely with that logic I can roll need on greens whenever I believe there to be monetary value?
    If everyone is down with that, sure. There is fundamentally no difference between everyone greeding and everyone needing on a boe. if the green happens to be an upgrade for someone in the group, they should ask, and im sure 90% of groups will be fine with passing on 5-10g so their group mate can get an upgrade.
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  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    Then surely with that logic I can roll need on greens whenever I believe there to be monetary value?
    Problem with that is the mood in the group alters and your average experience in dungeons and when your blue item drops from the boss I'm quite likely to need on it to DE.

  18. #78
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    Generally the vanilla take, at least on the server I was on, was this:

    For BoE greens and blues, Need if it's an upgrade, Greed if it's not (for vendoring, etc).

    For BoP gear, Need if you can equip it and it's an upgrade, Greed otherwise (everyone)

    For BoE epics, talk about it and decide if you're all Needing or Greeding. The assumption is that no one will equip it since the gold value far exceeds the stat value in most cases. If someone Needs when the group has decided to Greed because it's an upgrade and they want it as gear, they should equip it then and there.

    Can you enforce that latter? Not really. But you can /ignore them and if they do it a lot, they'll find the pool of people who will PUG with them smaller. Real serial ninjas did get a rep eventually... the person who did it a couple of times didn't.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Twoddle View Post
    Master loot is one of the reasons I quit WoW, putting all your trust into one person and hoping they do the duty which sometimes they do not. Running with friends doesn't guarantee anything, friends betray. Often people are peer pressured into passing an item they really want and have been grinding a long time for.

    Never saw the logic behind "all greed" on items like Righteous Orbs and reputation marks. For some reason you're looked down upon if you click "need". Click "need" as well then!

    But yeah like someone above said, it's a form of prisoners' dilemma, Share or Shaft - youtube it. If you click "greed" and someone else clicks "need" you are the sucker. The difference here is your reputation on the server.
    ML in pugs is sketchy, Blizzard removed it in Legion, and then altogether in BFA. I can understand the removal of ML in pugs but they should have left it as an option for guilds.
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  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Notdev View Post
    The other side of this argument is "keep getting loot ninjad and pretending your blacklisting makes any difference". Loot rolls don't even exist in retail, so your retail comment doesn't make sense. Also more recently in retail they put systems in place to prevent ninjas (needing a BoE binds it to you), but they don't exist in classic. Gotta get those shots in on retail when you can, eh?

    I dunno. I'm annoyed of ninjas. I still think the "all need" system for pricey boes is the best way to get rid of ninjas and people attempting to game the system, and is fairest to everyone.
    It seems people misinterpret the Need/Greed system due to their experience with the retail loot system. Case and point, "Needing for Gold".

    I can understand needing to prevent ninja looting, but if a Forors drops(for example) and it would be an upgrade for the tank in the group, all need to "prevent ninja looting", the mage wins it then throws it on the AH. The mage then essentially ninja looted the item. And everyone who need rolled to "prevent ninja looting" is actually attempting to ninja loot. Now unless you have someone in your group who is sketchy so you all need to have a better chance to give it to the right person is the only time you should all need.

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