Classic Loot Etiquette - Have a question

[Notdev]

It seems people misinterpret the Need/Greed system due to their experience with the retail loot system. Case and point, "Needing for Gold".

I can understand needing to prevent ninja looting, but if a Forors drops(for example) and it would be an upgrade for the tank in the group, all need to "prevent ninja looting", the mage wins it then throws it on the AH. The mage then essentially ninja looted the item. And everyone who need rolled to "prevent ninja looting" is actually attempting to ninja loot. Now unless you have someone in your group who is sketchy so you all need to have a better chance to give it to the right person is the only time you should all need.

I guess its a fundamental difference in what me and you think "ninjaing" is.
When the group agrees to greed boes and someone needs, thats a ninja.
When an epic drops and the PL says "all greed" and the PL needs and leaves, thats a ninja.
When a ML in a pug doesn't give the item to the highest roller, thats a ninja.

But if a group agrees to "all need" on boes worth more than x amount of gold no mater who can use a particular epic, no one is ninjaing anything.

It just makes more sense. What prevents the Warrior from throwing that Forors on the AH? Nothing.

[Heathy]

If foror's dropped I would need and assuming there was no other warrior in the group i'd expect to win, but that is only because I know I can actually get into an ony raid and finish the quest for the sword, if i wasn't in a guild or didn't intend on completing the quest i'd greed on the book.

need is what it means, you need it because you intend to use it.

if i tanked a dire maul run and the book dropped and everyone needed on it, i doubt this would happen because i mostly do guild runs, i have ironfoe so its not like i don't have a good weapon, but i would be disappointed in my guildies seeing as they know i would be able to get it done that next sunday. it would be a nice progression sword but ultimately i'm not dying to get it. it would just be disappointing if everyone needed it when someone can use it.

if it was a pug i'd probably just leave and ignore everyone, find some other tank to farm you gold.

for me it would be annoying as that book is likely the only thing I actually need from dire maul so it would be the only reason to run it in the first place.

[Kirbstermcgee]

I guess its a fundamental difference in what me and you think "ninjaing" is.
When the group agrees to greed boes and someone needs, thats a ninja.
When an epic drops and the PL says "all greed" and the PL needs and leaves, thats a ninja.
When a ML in a pug doesn't give the item to the highest roller, thats a ninja.

But if a group agrees to "all need" on boes worth more than x amount of gold no mater who can use a particular epic, no one is ninjaing anything.

It just makes more sense. What prevents the Warrior from throwing that Forors on the AH? Nothing.

Looking you’re really stretching this here to justify the abuse of the classic loot system.

T problem is groups aren’t agreeing to all need on BoE’s worth x amount of gold before hand. I would never join a group with such a backwards and ridiculous loot rule. At least not for a run that potential could drop a BiS epic boe for my spec. And neither should anyone else who has some basic understanding of the game. The problem, specifically, is when a epic boe drops one person spams “aAlL nEed” because they rather have a chance to abuse a system in the game as it not intended. Look you can call ninja looting whatever you want, and fortunately I get to choose to not play with people who are venal.

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Needing for gold is slimy and glutinous when someone in the group would equip that item as an upgrade. You don’t need to try and justify your stance to change people’s perception that you’re anything but the aforementioned pronouns.

You can play the game however you want. If you play that way you’re going to piss a lot of people off. If you’re okay with that, great! If not then you’re only option is to use the loot system as it was intended. Nothing else will change anyone’s opinion on it so it’s a mute point. I just simply will not invite people with that mentality. And those who accomplish the most in the game would overwhelmingly agree.

[Mukind]

BoEs and gold are fungible people

Everyone needs gold

Which means everyone needs BoEs

Anyone saying otherwise is a fucking idiot.

Furors/Robe patterns/Flask recipes that aren't world drop are common to be rezzed. But if nothing is agreed to they are free roll. Period

If you don't go by those loot rules. You are pleb and wrong. Shut your mouth and go away. This is how adults MMO. No one is there to farm world drops for you. I have my own world drops I want. Fuck off

[Notdev]

You can play the game however you want. If you play that way you’re going to piss a lot of people off. If you’re okay with that, great! If not then you’re only option is to use the loot system as it was intended. Nothing else will change anyone’s opinion on it so it’s a mute point. I just simply will not invite people with that mentality. And those who accomplish the most in the game would overwhelmingly agree.

Am I, though? This thread is split 50/50. I asked Trade Chat and the majority seemed to agree with me with a few people staunchly against it. In the reddit thread about the clown party leader who said "all greed" and went ahead and needed on an epic BoE, the majority there said they sided with the "all need" argument. It simply and flat out makes more sense and never ends with anyone being the sucker.

I'm not just going to go in runs and start needing everything I can. The argument I'm trying to make is, provided the group agrees, all need (for boes worth x amount of money) is a far superior system that cannot be gamed or exploited by any ninja or person seeing to take advantage of the group. It should be the norm.

[arkanon]

Looking you’re really stretching this here to justify the abuse of the classic loot system.

T problem is groups aren’t agreeing to all need on BoE’s worth x amount of gold before hand. I would never join a group with such a backwards and ridiculous loot rule. At least not for a run that potential could drop a BiS epic boe for my spec. And neither should anyone else who has some basic understanding of the game. The problem, specifically, is when a epic boe drops one person spams “aAlL nEed” because they rather have a chance to abuse a system in the game as it not intended. Look you can call ninja looting whatever you want, and fortunately I get to choose to not play with people who are venal.

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Needing for gold is slimy and glutinous when someone in the group would equip that item as an upgrade. You don’t need to try and justify your stance to change people’s perception that you’re anything but the aforementioned pronouns.

You can play the game however you want. If you play that way you’re going to piss a lot of people off. If you’re okay with that, great! If not then you’re only option is to use the loot system as it was intended. Nothing else will change anyone’s opinion on it so it’s a mute point. I just simply will not invite people with that mentality. And those who accomplish the most in the game would overwhelmingly agree.

I completely disagree, and I have accomplished plenty. High end players are by far the worst with loot, and to claim otherwise is extremely ignorant. If you read through the countless threads on this topic, you will find and overwhelming majority go with "if you can't beat em, join em".

There are plenty of options and tools in game to avoid or at least greatly minimise the chances of these things occuring, if you choose not to utilize them, and roll the dice, it's out of your control. Sure, you can react, if you are group leader you can replace the person, but they have what they want anyway, and will just do the same next time around.

Join a guild, play with friends, use masterlooter, form your own groups with your own loot rules.

[Black Goat]

This whole entire thread is the reason I run with my guildies or not at all. It solves all of this. I will wait for a guild group, plain and simple.

[Mukind]

This whole entire thread is the reason I run with my guildies or not at all. It solves all of this. I will wait for a guild group, plain and simple.

can only imagine what that looks like, lol

[Kirbstermcgee]

If you're needing to give to the person who would like to use and equip it, then sure all need and give it to the correct person. If you're just ninja looting to prevent someone else from ninja looting and then selling the item... then guess what you are?

[Mukind]

If you're needing to give to the person who would like to use and equip it, then sure all need and give it to the correct person. If you're just ninja looting to prevent someone else from ninja looting and then selling the item... then guess what you are?

Wut lol

It's a BoE

Which means it's worth gold

All needing on it means is you need gold.

[Kirbstermcgee]

Wut lol

It's a BoE

Which means it's worth gold

All needing on it means is you need gold.

Okay so then shouldn't everyone just need on every single drop, bop, boe, green etc with that logic? Lol you guys are talking in circles. Look its okay to be a slimebag, just dont pretend to be anything else.

[Heathy]

need and greed isn't complex you just need if you are going to equip it and use it and you greed if you're just going to vendor it, a lot of boes aren't worth equiping and are likely better to just sell to someone else for gold. at a certain point you get all the items you need from spamming 5 mans which makes boes largely transitory items or useful for alts who get less playtime.

in my groups we need for 16 slot bags and righteous orbs but I prefer a round robin on those items to make it fairer. so if you win you pass until everyone gets one.

[Potatowizard]

5 people in a group, 1 druid healer. Healing leather pants drop, upgrade for the druid. 3 rolled greed, druid needed, warrior tank needed.

If that's not ninjaing in you're world, I hope I never have the pleasure of raiding with you.

I mean don't get me wrong. Everyone is entitled to an opinion even if its wrong.

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So greed is your validation? And you wonder why people are arguing with you ?

Greed versus the likelihood of the pug on my server completing the quest? HOJ requires no quest chain. You open your bag and equip it. You don't need to kill a 40(or 20) man boss to equip HoJ.

Try farming Righteous Orbs in Living Strat on any server or either faction. You need them for your Truefaith Vestaments? Too bad. The warrior needs for his next weapons crusader. Everyone else wants to sell them.

Also, who's arguing with me? I see majority of people agreeing with everyone rolls need.

[Notdev]

Okay so then shouldn't everyone just need on every single drop, bop, boe, green etc with that logic? Lol you guys are talking in circles. Look its okay to be a slimebag, just dont pretend to be anything else.

No. Its not. Stop saying this. The value and fact that person needing can turn around and sell it makes all the difference.
There is no justification for thinking you deserve 4-6g over someone in your group getting a needed upgrade.
There can be justification for thinking you deserve an equal chance at getting 100+g to someone in your group getting a needed upgrade, especially when that person might not actually need it, might not use it, and might just sell it anyway.

Needing on BoP items to vendor is not anywhere near needing on BoE items to sell to another player.

[munkeyinorbit]

This is an individual decision. What you will see from all previous threads on this topic is that peoples "code" or etiquette goes straight out the window the moment someone does something they dont agree with. People seem to come down off their high horse the moment someone does anything loot related they dont agree with, and it becomes a free for all. So it becomes a shoot first, or wait to be shot at first question.

The only real "solution" is to run master loot, or run with friends.

I agree with this guy. I do my best to only need what I actually need (upgrades) and so far that has been the way of all my groups. Whenever someone needs a boe item I haven't cared enough to see if they actually need it.

But...
I haven't come across a boe that is worth a significant amount of gold yet. Would i stick to my morals and only need if I needed? I certainly wouldn't ninja but would I start needing if others in the group needed as well? Would I be selfish and need on range weapons as a rogue when there's a hunter? Would I sit there and let others gold need when they don't gear need?

Personally, I don't care what an item is, gold needing is a cancer and should never be allowed. That's why there is a greed roll. But it is pretty difficult letting other people roll need on an item when you know they are not going to use it.

I think the best course of action with pugging is to make up the rules before the run. That way there shouldn't be any drama when that epic boe drops.

Shouldn't.

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I remember early TBC, someone had this toxic mentality on our server. He followed through and won said item. He got a bonus prize as well, of instantly becoming a known ninja on the server. No guild or group would take him and the guy eventually just disappeared. Either name changed or migrated.

This didn't actually happen.

[Kirbstermcgee]

No. Its not. Stop saying this. The value and fact that person needing can turn around and sell it makes all the difference.
There is no justification for thinking you deserve 4-6g over someone in your group getting a needed upgrade.
There can be justification for thinking you deserve an equal chance at getting 100+g to someone in your group getting a needed upgrade, especially when that person might not actually need it, might not use it, and might just sell it anyway.

Needing on BoP items to vendor is not anywhere near needing on BoE items to sell to another player.

So you agree that there is a nuance in that, but not needing an item that is an upgrade and GREEDING at item you want to sell? There is even a gold coin next to the selection, its clear as day. Seriously guys, I dont know why you are trying so hard to prove you arent a thief. Just admit it and move on.

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You're ninja looting an item based on the assumption someone else will. That doesnt make you any less of a ninja looter. And if loot rules were discussed prior to need everything than thats fine. It is assumed that if no loot rules are discussed than the loot rules implemented in the game (Need/Greed, look up their definitions). There would be no Greed button if it was implied that needing an item for gold should be a less important /roll.

[munkeyinorbit]

...
"All Need" is the fairest and results in 0 ninjaing and 0 people getting screwed over. But it should be agreed upon beforehand.

If agreed upon yes. That statement is true. You agreed, that's final.

But gold needing, without agreement, is plain ninjaing. The people it hurts are the people who actually needed it. Any argument of "I CaN bUy MY bIs" is just retarded. But what do you expect from the classic community? Fairness and respect? Lol.

[Nite92]

I have been wondering about what is considered normal loot etiquette in PUGs in Classic. So far I have seen the random BOE epic go the way of All NEED, All Greed, and of course the All Greed (wait till all 4 greed, then Ninja Need). Obviously 3 is not ok.

My circumstance is one of my own making where I still came out in the end. DM North Run and Quel'Serrar book drops. I instantly hit greed on reflex, everyone else hesitated and discussion started about everyone rolling Need. I was ass out as I had already greeded, however before the loot was assigned (main tank held his roll for last) the rest of group decided that I should be able to roll and take item if i beat them all.

Tank lost roll to a rogue and then i hit a greed roll and beat everyone. Without skipping a beat, the rogue opened trade and gave it to me. At this point the tank accuses the rogue of ninja'ing the epic because it was not for his class. Everyone disagreed with the tank as no loot rules were specified prior to the run starting AKA book on reserve.

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I have lost a few epic boe's to tanks and non casters due to the mindset that all BOE's = need. Is this considered normal for classic, as I am only familiar for what is generally agreed upon for my server.

Thoughts or opinions?

In a guild run, give it to the guy who needs it. In a pug, the warr could fuck right off. If he needs the book he should buy it. With the gold you get, you could buy a similar item for your class.

[Kirbstermcgee]

In a guild run, give it to the guy who needs it. In a pug, the warr could fuck right off. If he needs the book he should buy it. With the gold you get, you could buy a similar item for your class.

See this guy might be a dick but at least he calls it like it is and doesn't try and pretend he's not a pos in pugs. I might not agree with acting this way but I respect it a lot more than the alternative.

[Mukind]

Okay so then shouldn't everyone just need on every single drop, bop, boe, green etc with that logic? Lol you guys are talking in circles. Look its okay to be a slimebag, just dont pretend to be anything else.

BoP we don't do. Always MS>OS>Gold. Although if it's not a good item again who gives a fuck. We talking about small value shit here.

BoE means it's fungible so if sum1 did need yea no problem assuming no1 rezzed. I will just need the next time on the small green. Whatever. If the DE mats get high enough trust me people will start needing on the greens too lol

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See this guy might be a dick but at least he calls it like it is and doesn't try and pretend he's not a pos in pugs. I might not agree with acting this way but I respect it a lot more than the alternative.

He said the same thing the majority of the thread is saying? wut lol

How can people imagine they get to auto loot furors when they don't rez it? lol

On day one of DM release it was probably the most expensive BoE in the fucking game at that time. Unless there was a teebu's up or something