The Scourge is overrated

[Magical Mudcrab]

Even with all these parallel wars, the Alliance and the Horde defeated the Scourge (even if the Lich King allowed it, but if he could destroy the weakened Alliance and the Horde, he would have done it. Conclusion? Even after all these wars, the Scourge could not to defeat the Alliance and the Horde).

Ha, to some extent he even helped Azeroth, because he lured the Alliance and Horde to Northrend, where they defeated the Old God, who otherwise could have been hiding even longer. Ironically, during the Wrath of the Lich King, the Lich King and his Scourge were the smallest threats to the world.
What do you think?

I think that if this is your conclusion, you either didn't play Wrath or don't know why Arthas allowed what transpired on Northrend to occur (which was very blatantly stated in ICC).

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The scourge is scary, for the living. The scourge can win against the dragon aspects and the wild gods, as they are alive and vulnerable to them.

Scourge against the legion would fail. Scourge against the old gods would fail. Because they cannot raise or corrupt to get the superior numbers they need.

This is a lot of groundless speculation regarding the Scourge champions, especially given that if Arthas had succeeded, we would have been the Scourge's champions. Effectively Arthas winning would have meant that it would have been a single, unified front to face the Legion and the agents of the Void, and we decimated the Legion and the armies of the Void while busy being at each others throats.

If the Scourge had won, every major threat we've faced since (which is realistically just Deathwing and the Mogu/Mantid as WoD through to BfA would never have happened) would either be dead or under the banner of the Scourge.

[Eucep]

I think that if this is your conclusion, you either didn't play Wrath or don't know why Arthas allowed what transpired on Northrend to occur (which was very blatantly stated in ICC).

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This is a lot of groundless speculation regarding the Scourge champions, especially given that if Arthas had succeeded, we would have been the Scourge's champions. Effectively Arthas winning would have meant that it would have been a single, unified front to face the Legion and the agents of the Void, and we decimated the Legion and the armies of the Void while busy being at each others throats.

If the Scourge had won, every major threat we've faced since (which is realistically just Deathwing and the Mogu/Mantid as WoD through to BfA would never have happened) would either be dead or under the banner of the Scourge.

And with us becoming scourge, we would have lost us what made the champions such dangerous foes. Our free will. With the lack of that, the lack of passion, no drive other then a single beings willpower, we would be destroyed. You could argue that he would give us free will like the DK's of the DK starter zone, but that failed hard on Arthas, he is very unlikely to risk that again.

My point of view in this is that once someone becomes scourge, unless they willingly joined, loose way to much and only gain might. But might alone is not enough against the Legion or the Void. The legion made the Scourge because they knew they could control it and that has not changed regardless of the Lich King's rebellion. He even had to use Illidan to fight that bit for him.

If the Legion vs Scourged Azeroth happened, Kil'jaeden just would have had to snuff out the link the Scourge had to it's unholy might and all of the army would crumble to dust. The last bastion would be the Frozen Throne with it's link to the Shadowlands. And that means, there is just one point where they really have to fight with everything they got rather then spread out across a world fighting hundreds of fronts.

[Rafoel]

if arthas had succeded he would have lost the moment deathwing emerges. HE HAS NOTHING TO KILL HIM.

His plan was doomed because deathwing would have destroyed him. and if not him any other dragonaxpect could have done it

If you really think Lich King wouldn't be able to destroy Deathwing any other way... he could just ressurect Galakrond, who is 10x the size of Deathwing, and could stomp him into ground like a fly.

[formerShandalay]

If you really think Lich King wouldn't be able to destroy Deathwing any other way... he could just ressurect Galakrond, who is 10x the size of Deathwing, and could stomp him into ground like a fly.

Well, he sure tried and couldn't. It took too long and his plan was thwarted.

[Magical Mudcrab]

And with us becoming scourge, we would have lost us what made the champions such dangerous foes. Our free will. With the lack of that, the lack of passion, no drive other then a single beings willpower, we would be destroyed. You could argue that he would give us free will like the DK's of the DK starter zone, but that failed hard on Arthas, he is very unlikely to risk that again.

My point of view in this is that once someone becomes scourge, unless they willingly joined, loose way to much and only gain might. But might alone is not enough against the Legion or the Void. The legion made the Scourge because they knew they could control it and that has not changed regardless of the Lich King's rebellion. He even had to use Illidan to fight that bit for him.

If the Legion vs Scourged Azeroth happened, Kil'jaeden just would have had to snuff out the link the Scourge had to it's unholy might and all of the army would crumble to dust. The last bastion would be the Frozen Throne with it's link to the Shadowlands. And that means, there is just one point where they really have to fight with everything they got rather then spread out across a world fighting hundreds of fronts.

Many Scourge champions do have Free Will to act as independent agents, Kel'thuzad is a prime example of this; however others like Anub'arak weren't impeded by the fact that they lacked Free Will. That said, Free Will has little-to-nothing with how we defeated the Legion, it has to do with Argus, for whatever reason, having so few defenses that the Vindicar alone was almost efficient. Moreover, the Legion lost control over the Scourge, and it was to the surprise of the Dreadlords in Lordaeron that it occurred. That sorta makes the fact that they *thought* they could control it a little irrelevant.

Regarding the Void, why is might not enough for the Scourge? The Scourge were either immune to the Old God's corruption or at least so massively resistant that they could don armor made from the blood of Yogg-saron and still be unaffected.

And, again, if the Scourge had won, both the Legion and the Old Gods wouldn't have been an issue because every thread past MoP wouldn't have existed. There would be no Garrosh, thus no Draenor, thus no Legion. That said, the Legion could arrive at some point in the future, but for whatever reason seem unable to deal with a fragmented Alliance and Horde, so I doubt they could deal with a unified one under the Scourge.

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Well, he sure tried and couldn't. It took too long and his plan was thwarted.

It's almost like if he defeated the Argent Crusade at Icecrown, he could have tried again unimpeded.

[formerShandalay]

Many Scourge champions do have Free Will to act as independent agents, Kel'thuzad is a prime example of this; however others like Anub'arak weren't impeded by the fact that they lacked Free Will. That said, Free Will has little-to-nothing with how we defeated the Legion, it has to do with Argus, for whatever reason, having so few defenses that the Vindicar alone was almost efficient. Moreover, the Legion lost control over the Scourge, and it was to the surprise of the Dreadlords in Lordaeron that it occurred. That sorta makes the fact that they *thought* they could control it a little irrelevant.

Regarding the Void, why is might not enough for the Scourge? The Scourge were either immune to the Old God's corruption or at least so massively resistant that they could don armor made from the blood of Yogg-saron and still be unaffected.

And, again, if the Scourge had won, both the Legion and the Old Gods wouldn't have been an issue because every thread past MoP wouldn't have existed. There would be no Garrosh, thus no Draenor, thus no Legion. That said, the Legion could arrive at some point in the future, but for whatever reason seem unable to deal with a fragmented Alliance and Horde, so I doubt they could deal with a unified one under the Scourge.

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It's almost like if he defeated the Argent Crusade at Icecrown, he could have tried again unimpeded.

It wasn't the Argent Crusade that stopped him. Had he tried again after Icecrown the Red Dragons would not have been as impeded as they were with the Nexus-war still going on and could have maybe stopped him again. Obviously he couldn't just walk up to Galakkrond's corpse and revive it like he did with Sindragosa, so he still would have needed to do it the way he tried before.
I don't doubt that he would have succeeded at some point, but only if he beat back the dragonflights before that. And by that time Deathwing may have already been on the loose. Plus all of those Old God things that popped up in Dragonblight.
His best bet was while the Nexus war was on and people were still preparing for the Wrathgate. It was the only time-window that made sense and gave him a big enough chance.

[Magical Mudcrab]

It wasn't the Argent Crusade that stopped him.

Was it, or was it not, the Argent Crusade that stormed Icecrown Citadel and stopped the Lich King canonically?

Had he tried again after Icecrown the Red Dragons would not have been as impeded as they were with the Nexus-war still going on and could have maybe stopped him again. Obviously he couldn't just walk up to Galakkrond's corpse and revive it like he did with Sindragosa, so he still would have needed to do it the way he tried before.

The Scourge had an ongoing Undead and Plagued Dragonflights that were being created, as well as multiple floating fortresses like Naxxramas and Voltarus that were either operational or under construction. It should also be noted that - canonically - floating Necropolis like Naxxramas had their own airborne defenses, outside of the considerable forces inside. If the Scourge wasn't playing out some contrived Blizzard plan, the full might of the Scourge in Northrend, focused on resurrecting Galakrond, probably wouldn't have an issue dealing with the dragons in Dragonblight.

Even then, it's not evident that the Lich King couldn't simply revive Galakrond the same way he did Sindragosa. All that we know is that sometime between Arthas' ascension to being the Lich King and the Northrend campaign that he assigned Grand Necrolord Antiok to resurrecting Galakrond. The more likely situation is that Arthas was fully aware that a primary hub of power for the Red, Green, Bronze, Blue, and Black dragonflights were nearby, so decided to risk a disposable force that could be replaced/replenished as-needed from the nearby Wrathgate instead of wasting resources in an all-out war with the 5 dragonflights. That said, they don't appear to be a problem individually, as the Red and Black dragonflights were both unable to repel the contingent of Scourge forces sent to both.

[formerShandalay]

Was it, or was it not, the Argent Crusade that stormed Icecrown Citadel and stopped the Lich King canonically?



The Scourge had an ongoing Undead and Plagued Dragonflights that were being created, as well as multiple floating fortresses like Naxxramas and Voltarus that were either operational or under construction. It should also be noted that - canonically - floating Necropolis like Naxxramas had their own airborne defenses, outside of the considerable forces inside. If the Scourge wasn't playing out some contrived Blizzard plan, the full might of the Scourge in Northrend, focused on resurrecting Galakrond, probably wouldn't have an issue dealing with the dragons in Dragonblight.

Even then, it's not evident that the Lich King couldn't simply revive Galakrond the same way he did Sindragosa. All that we know is that sometime between Arthas' ascension to being the Lich King and the Northrend campaign that he assigned Grand Necrolord Antiok to resurrecting Galakrond. The more likely situation is that Arthas was fully aware that a primary hub of power for the Red, Green, Bronze, Blue, and Black dragonflights were nearby, so decided to risk a disposable force that could be replaced/replenished as-needed from the nearby Wrathgate instead of wasting resources in an all-out war with the 5 dragonflights. That said, they don't appear to be a problem individually, as the Red and Black dragonflights were both unable to repel the contingent of Scourge forces sent to both.

Again, I think that it was the timing that was actually perfect for his try. The dragons busy with the war against Malygos, their shrines under attack. This was exactly the right time to try and raise Galakkrond (and the Lich King knew it, because that was the point when he tried)

If he had won at Icecrown and defeated the Argent Crusade, he could have laid siege to the dragons, that is surely true. But I do think they could have fought back better than before, because they didn't have to fight Malygos anymore, so he still couldn't just go there and raise Galakkrond if he could not do so before. The dragon shrines were in an even better state than before the Wrathgate, because we repelled the attacks that took place there.

And after the Argent Crusade's defeat, while the Lich King's siege on the dragonflights was going on, Deathwing would already have come out of Deepholm and Old God maws opened up in Dragonblight.

[Magical Mudcrab]

And after the Argent Crusade's defeat, while the Lich King's siege on the dragonflights was going on, Deathwing would already have come out of Deepholm and Old God maws opened up in Dragonblight.

The invasion of Dragonblight only began during the Dragon Soul raid -- immediately after the events of Hour of Twilight. In the narrative, this occurs long after Deathwing's emergence, and only in response to the Aspects attempting to empower the Demon/Dragon Soul once again. The Scourge would have ample time to claim Galakrond's body and resurrect him, especially given that the Aspects would now be dealing with the re-emergence of Deathwing and his new Twilight Dragonflight across Azeroth, as well as the Black dragons betraying their trust. I would say that the events following Deathwing's emergence were a little more pressing for the various dragonflights than demented old Malygos.

[eurojust]

WC3 Scourge was a major world ending threat.

WoW Scourge is still a major world ending threat but due to the nature of MMOs needing to raise the stakes every couple of years things have got so ridiculous that they don't feel like it anymore.

Unfortunately things haven't made a good transition from original WC to the mockery WoW turned it all into.

It really wasn't. Illidan with his army of failures almost won against them. Dreadlords and Sylvanas took control of half of the scourge when LK lost control without any issues (they didn't go crazy, invading Azeroth as an unstoppable army). Nerubians would have won against the Scourge if the dreadlords hadn't intervened.
Also in the last NE mission, it feels like the Alliance and the Horde were able to stop the scourge and Archimonde had to go in, to win the fight and reach the world tree.
For me the strongest asset of the Scourge was the plague and Arthas with frostmourne who seemed unstoppable.

[formerShandalay]

The invasion of Dragonblight only began during the Dragon Soul raid -- immediately after the events of Hour of Twilight. In the narrative, this occurs long after Deathwing's emergence, and only in response to the Aspects attempting to empower the Demon/Dragon Soul once again. The Scourge would have ample time to claim Galakrond's body and resurrect him, especially given that the Aspects would now be dealing with the re-emergence of Deathwing and his new Twilight Dragonflight across Azeroth, as well as the Black dragons betraying their trust. I would say that the events following Deathwing's emergence were a little more pressing for the various dragonflights than demented old Malygos.

The maws in the Dragonblight can't just have been put there over night, they had to have been there all along just 'closed' and hidden.

But let's go with Arthas attacking the dragons right away after he had won at Icecrown to gain control of Galakkrond, they are still fighting as Deathwing emerges and at least Ysera has to go to Hyjal. The dragons still have a new Blue Aspect to help them now (that was independent from the heroes doing anything and the Blues wouldn't have joined them in the fight before that either way).
If the Argent Crusade and the 'heroes' had been part of the Scourge by the time Deathwing emerged, who would have stopped him and N'zoth from going against the biggest army on Azeroth at once and not months later? Deathwing swoops over the world, destroys everything, Horde and Alliance fight anyway (because Varian and Garrosh wanted to, 'heroes' didn't matter in that). Twilight Hammer and Ragnaros burn down Nordrassil without being stopped, the Ancients join them (the corrupted versions), the Naga take over Vash'jir and from there Stormwind and the rest of the Eastern Kingdoms. The rest of the Old God forces and Deathwing have only one possible resistance and that is the Scourge in this case, so that's where they go, of course. Right away, not after a few months, the rest of the world gets conquered in one fell swoop anyway.

So in my opinion had Arthas won in Icecrown, Deathwing and N'zoth would have had the world in their bag a lot faster and Arthas would have had no time to react before the Dragonblight was overrun.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

A legion of zombies that are relentless? Sounds kinda OP to me.

That is the exact quote Arthas himself said when Ner'zhul told him to shatter the throne and place the helm upon his head.
OP u sure u not Arthas himself?

[alt-ithist]

I just want to point out, to prepare for the invasion of the legion stronghold we have to build overpowered mechs, use the guardian of Tirisfal ritual on several already godlike weapons (we all basically had more powerful Mediv’s in our hands) and battled spaceships. To prepare for the invasion of the LK’s fortress we dueled while riding horses using wooden lances.

To break into the legion stronghold we had to gather the blood of Titan for months to power up the super laser of a spaceship. For the Lich King fortress, we needed a wooden battering ram.

Seriously there was more involved on the assault of malygos and Ulduar then there was for the Lich King.

[HailArthas]

That is the exact quote Arthas himself said when Ner'zhul told him to shatter the throne and place the helm upon his head.
OP u sure u not Arthas himself?

oh shit u got me

[Potatowizard]

Wasn't Arthas holding back in the event of WOTLK? His plan was to draw the strongest of the Horde and Alliance into a showdown and kill them and raise them as his champions. He knew the strongest of both factions would be a threat to Azeroth. Passed this, I don't know what his intentions were

[Rafoel]

It really wasn't. Illidan with his army of failures almost won against them. Dreadlords and Sylvanas took control of half of the scourge when LK lost control without any issues (they didn't go crazy, invading Azeroth as an unstoppable army). Nerubians would have won against the Scourge if the dreadlords hadn't intervened.
Also in the last NE mission, it feels like the Alliance and the Horde were able to stop the scourge and Archimonde had to go in, to win the fight and reach the world tree.
For me the strongest asset of the Scourge was the plague and Arthas with frostmourne who seemed unstoppable.

Did you even play WC3? The whole plot of Frozen Throne expansion was driven by the fact that Lich King was dieing and his power waning due to damage done to the Throne by the Eye of Sargeras. He couldn't command the Scourge, he couldn't raise undead, he was - for all purposes - defenseless. He even lost control over huge part of the Scourge. He commanded Arthas to come to Northend with specific mission to save him. Illidan's army wasn't fighting "the Scourge", it was fighting the small regiment that Arthas dragged with him to Northrend. At the beginning of this "battle", Lich King explicitly says that he can't do anything to help in his state, and will instead use the remains of his power to restore Arthas to his normal strength.

[Mehrunes]

The Dragon Soul is only particularly potent against dragons. Thrall was able to hold it without much issue.

You're conflating the passive effect merely holding the Dragon Soul had on dragons and the destructive magic using it was capable of. Which is particularly weird in light of how @ArenaDk already mentioned its destructive power on something that wasn't dragons. I.e. demons. Where Deathwing wielding the Dragon Soul was so effective it forced even Archimonde to flee. He also fucked up the forces of anti-Legion coalition all the same.

Not everybody can wield the Dragon soul. You need to empower it with the dragon aspect's power and focus it through the focusing iris. Not to mention the heroes needed to travel back into the past to secure it in the first place; something that would have never happened if Arthas had succeeded.

Basically every single thing you said here is wrong. Everyone can wield the Dragon Soul. It's just that it tends to damage dragons when doing so. You don't need to empower it with the Dragon Aspects' power to use it. It already is empowered with it. It's like the whole origin of the artifact. The Dragon Aspects empowered it again at the end of Cata to supercharge it to make sure it was effective against Deathwing. Likewise, you don't need the Focusing Iris to focus the Dragon Soul through. The Focusing Iris was required to unmake the seals Deathwing put on the Dragon Soul so the aforementioned supercharging of it could have been done in the first place. Thrall's empowerment being particularly important as he was substituting for Deathwing.

And in regards to your last bit here we need to first loop back to your earlier reply to @ArenaDk in this thread (which is just as wrong):

Seeing as Thrall got to take like, three pot shots at him, it obviously wasn't a very critical process.

The aspects wouldn't have been able to do shit. They seemed quite powerless to adequately deal with him in Northrend. If you're looking for power equivalency, the players beat Malygos handedly, and then the Lich King beat the players with zero effort. Deathwing had nothing particularly powerful against the scourge, and he'd be minus his cultists and other mortal forces because they'd all have been turned to the scourge.

So, not only did you move the goalposts when it was pointed out to you that the shots from Dragon Soul Deathwing took were plenty powerful, not only did you move those goalposts to a bunch of wrong information, but then you you tried to dismiss the whole thing with something that undermines your whole argument. Yes, had Arthas succeeded likely no one would have traveled back in time to secure the Dragon Soul.

Which means that the Scourge wouldn't be able to do shit against Deathwing. Because contrary to your "pot shots" misinformed claim, Charge of the Aspects made it explicitly clear that winning against Deathwing was impossible without the Dragon Soul. While Deathwing could literally shatter the world. Which as we saw in End Time, didn't exactly result in the Scourge surviving.

If you really think Lich King wouldn't be able to destroy Deathwing any other way... he could just ressurect Galakrond, who is 10x the size of Deathwing, and could stomp him into ground like a fly.

Galakrond was defeated by Neltharion and Malygos making him choke on a rock, before the Charge of the Aspects happened. And then Deathwing got additional empowerment from the Old Gods. And wore Elementium plating that made him pretty much invulnerable to anything other than a time travel deus ex machina to get the Dragon Soul.

Many Scourge champions do as have Free Will to act as independent agents, Kel'thuzad is a prime example of this; however others like Anub'arak weren't impeded by the fact that they lacked Free Will.

A quest in Icecrown showed that members of the Cult of the Damned had to drink a concoction that bound them to the Lich King's will all the same.

And, again, if the Scourge had won, both the Legion and the Old Gods wouldn't have been an issue because every thread past MoP wouldn't have existed. There would be no Garrosh, thus no Draenor, thus no Legion. That said, the Legion could arrive at some point in the future, but for whatever reason seem unable to deal with a fragmented Alliance and Horde, so I doubt they could deal with a unified one under the Scourge.

The Legion appearing later on than they did only means they'd get more time to capture the Titans and proceed with their Dark Pantheon plan. At the very least they'd have captured Eonar.

Also, the Scourge had nothing against Deathwing. Even if they managed to travel through time to get the Dragon Soul, they still would have needed a World Shaman to act as a replacement for Deathwing when charging it for the second time to actually make it work against him. And undeath doesn't exactly mesh well with Shamanism. The same applies to preventing the Elemental Planes from collapsing into Azeroth after Deathwing caused the initial Cataclysm. And dealing with Chromatus.

Likewise, undeath doesn't mesh well with Druidism either, so Scourge would have trouble against the Emerald Nightmare, particularly if Xavius repeated what he did in Stormrage. The Scourge would have also trouble against Azshara on her turf. And Old Gods' forces in general can also raise undead themselves and fight fire with fire. And then there are the denizens of Shadowlands.

[eurojust]

Did you even play WC3? The whole plot of Frozen Throne expansion was driven by the fact that Lich King was dieing and his power waning due to damage done to the Throne by the Eye of Sargeras. He couldn't command the Scourge, he couldn't raise undead, he was - for all purposes - defenseless. He even lost control over huge part of the Scourge. He commanded Arthas to come to Northend with specific mission to save him. Illidan's army wasn't fighting "the Scourge", it was fighting the small regiment that Arthas dragged with him to Northrend. At the beginning of this "battle", Lich King explicitly says that he can't do anything to help in his state, and will instead use the remains of his power to restore Arthas to his normal strength.

He only lost mind control over the undeads in Lordaeron (who became the Forsaken). When Arthas won, he didn't gain back this control, otherwise Forsaken wouldn't even exist in WoW.
But let's pretend that he lost control over a big part of the undeads even in Northrend : Where was that "giant unstoppable" army which would destroy all Azeroth without someone controlling them?

[Mehrunes]

So in my opinion had Arthas won in Icecrown, Deathwing and N'zoth would have had the world in their bag a lot faster and Arthas would have had no time to react before the Dragonblight was overrun.

And you still didn't account for quite a lot:
- Elemental Planes collapsing into Azeroth.
- Druids busy dying on Hyjal would give Xavius a perfect opportunity to make the Emerald Nightmare completely unchecked again.
- With champions dead and the Scourge busy with the Dragonflights in Northrend no one would stop Deathwing's forces in Uldum from capturing the Halls of Origination and reoriginating the world. Also Al'Akir reverting the curse of flesh on former Titan-forged without a hassle.
- The whole thing with Scourge kicking N'Zoth's plan into high gear means earlier escapade to Zandalar to free G'Huun. Which in turn means corrupted Loa on top of corrupted Guardians from Hyjal.
- With Zandalari not coming to Pandaria and as such no Lei Shen to reorganize the Mogu again, Pandaria and all its Titan tech, Ra-den, Sha and Mantid would be ripe for the picking for the Old Gods.
- Azshara wouldn't have made a deal with Sylvanas yet, with N'Zoth's plan being put in motion earlier and with another strong Old God minion around like Deathwing Azshara would have no alternative but work to release N'Zoth earlier. Which in turn would mean N'yalotha incursions into Azeroth and Old Gods capturing even more Titan outposts.
- Chromatus would be unkillable without a world shaman and an Aspect of Magic.
- If Deathwing forced the Scourge out of Borean Tundra or at least Coldarra, without the champions to help Kalec out, Arygos would become the new Aspect of Magic on team Old God.
- Ysera would have fallen to the Nightmare, possibly after getting captured in Hyjal first while defending it.
- Finally, there's very little the Scourge could have done to prevent Ultraxion flying to Icecrown in the Twilight Realm only to phase to the real world right in front of Arthas and explode right in his face.

[formerShandalay]

And you still didn't account for quite a lot:
- Elemental Planes collapsing into Azeroth.
- Druids busy dying on Hyjal would give Xavius a perfect opportunity to make the Emerald Nightmare completely unchecked again.
- With champions dead and the Scourge busy with the Dragonflights in Northrend no one would stop Deathwing's forces in Uldum from capturing the Halls of Origination and reoriginating the world. Also Al'Akir reverting the curse of flesh on former Titan-forged without a hassle.
- The whole thing with Scourge kicking N'Zoth's plan into high gear means earlier escapade to Zandalar to free G'Huun. Which in turn means corrupted Loa on top of corrupted Guardians from Hyjal.
- With Zandalari not coming to Pandaria and as such no Lei Shen to reorganize the Mogu again, Pandaria and all its Titan tech, Ra-den, Sha and Mantid would be ripe for the picking for the Old Gods.
- Azshara wouldn't have made a deal with Sylvanas yet, with N'Zoth's plan being put in motion earlier and with another strong Old God minion around like Deathwing Azshara would have no alternative but work to release N'Zoth earlier. Which in turn would mean N'yalotha incursions into Azeroth and Old Gods capturing even more Titan outposts.
- Chromatus would be unkillable without a world shaman and an Aspect of Magic.
- If Deathwing forced the Scourge out of Borean Tundra or at least Coldarra, without the champions to help Kalec out, Arygos would become the new Aspect of Magic on team Old God.
- Ysera would have fallen to the Nightmare, possibly after getting captured in Hyjal first while defending it.
- Finally, there's very little the Scourge could have done to prevent Ultraxion flying to Icecrown in the Twilight Realm only to phase to the real world right in front of Arthas and explode right in his face.

Yes, that's what I meant with Deathwing and N'zoth would have had the world in their bag a lot faster. I only named some examples with the Old Gods taking Hyjal (including the corrupted versions of the Ancients, which then would have been on their side) and the Naga taking Vash'jir and then Stormwind/the Eastern Kingdoms in almost no time, but you are right, there would have been a lot more that the Old Gods could have done without any interference by the 'heroes' and, as I also pointed out, they would have been aware that Arthas won at Icecrown, so would have (and could have) moved against him a lot faster too.
Which is why I think Arthas would not have had time to raise Galakkrond to fight against Deathwing (which was the premise of that specific discussion I had). Arthas had one chance to do it, he knew it and he tried, but it didn't work and then the chance was over, no matter if he had won at Icecrown.