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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    Off-hand I didn't remember this quest, had to quickly look it up. That's a fair point, though it seems to impose the same loyalty to the Lich King that being resurrected would. So I'm not sure if this is something which simply instills obedience in the weak willed and can be overcome (similarly to Darion and the Death Knights turning against Arthas) or not.



    So, regarding Deathwing, I don't think he would be an issue for the Scourge to deal with logistically, I don't buy that the only way to defeat him has to be with the Dragon Soul. I see most scenarios down the line of the Lich King prevailing as always becoming a war of attrition with Deathwing, which I think heavily favors the Scourge. It seems like it would effectively be the: Scourge + Undead Alliance/Horde + Galakrond/Undead Dragonflights vs. Living Alliance/Horde + Red Dragonflight vs. Deathwing + Twilight Cult + Twilight Dragonflight.
    The Scourge would, at this point, effectively be in complete control Northrend (the only real opposition was the Dragons at Wyrmrest, and they're either focusing on Deathwing, are traitors, or MIA), leaving them open to do as they wish to Galakrond. Fights between the `Champions of Azeroth` and `Deathwing's Forces` would be beneficial to the Scourge (such as in the case of the Twilight Highlands, which is littered with dead dragons). The one trump-card Deathwing has is unleashing the second cataclysm, but all we know about that are vague details of that are from End Time; we really don't know enough about it to say whether it would just wipe out the Scourge or do nothing (though I'd err on the side of it being somewhere in-between, along the lines of the first cataclysm).

    There are some specifics I can't answer, such as I don't know whether the Scourge would be able to do something about - or even care - about the goings-on in Deepholm, though I would suspect that anything the players did do, the Scourge could effectively do in Deepholm.
    Regarding Chromatus, I don't think he would be an issue. Not because I think the Scourge had some super master plan to defeat him, but simply because I think the Scourge controlling Northrend would lend them to having a more vested interest in the Blue Dragonflight and the The Nexus/Dragonblight. This would likely mean the Twilight Hammer probably wouldn't have an opportunity to move Chromatus there. Though, if Chromatus were given life elsewhere, I have no idea how the Scourge would deal with it.

    Regarding the Emerald Nightmare, that's actually not something I thought about and is probably the silver bullet here. Given Y'sera may still be alive at that time, there doesn't seem to be a way for the Scourge to get access. There's also the question about whether Y'sera still being alive would be a blessing (by ensuring the corruption doesn't occur) or a curse (falling to the corruption, Legion-style), and in the latter situation, I can't see the Scourge winning without some ass-pull.

    - - - Updated - - -



    If this had been true, and the Old Gods had an invasion substantial enough to be dangerous to Wyrmrest read and in-place since the beginning of Cataclysm, why wouldn't they ambush the Dragons at Wyrmrest and remove their leadership?



    Should say first off, Kalecgos wouldn't be the Aspect of Magic at this time -- he doesn't become the aspect until after the situation in Hyjal is resolved and Ragnaros is killed.
    That said, Arthas' plan wasn't so quick to unfold. The plan was for the 'champions' to return to their capital cities and assassinate the leadership, as he did with his father because Arthas is a sick, diry boy. This would either take weeks or months for the heroes to finally disperse and have the opportunity. You could argue about whether or not Arthas would have looked to retake Dragonblight before or after Deathwing's emergence, but the Alexstraza, the only aspect really present at Wyrmrest at the time, would probably elect to deal with Deathwing over the Scourge (especially with their history).



    The Alliance and Horde would still exist, just not in the form as they currently are. I can conceive that they would operate as they were for months (possibly even years) following their leaders conversion to undeath (obviously, without their knowing); however, I see it as eventually looking a little like:
    The Scourge + Undead Alliance/Horde + Galakrond/Undead Dragonflight
    vs. Remnant Alliance/Horde + Red/Blue/Green/Bronze Dragonflights
    vs. Deathwing + The Twilight Cult + Twilight Dragonflight
    I don't list the elemental lords because they're not really a unified front with Deathwing. Al'akir and Ragnaros are loosely following some plan, but it always struck me that it's an alliance of convenience, Neptulon and Therazane either outright work against the plans or ignore them.
    Well, the thing with Kalec is a bit strange, because in the book it happened a bit different and before the actual Cataclysm even happened (but not sure anymore, have not read the whole thing in a long time ^^)
    But really, he is unimportant at that time, because the only thing that is important is that Malygos isn't attacking the other flights anymore and the distraction caused by the Nexus War is gone. So until the Cataclysm the other dragons are free to try and stop the Lich King, when he attacks them. If he wants Galakrond before Deathwing rises from Deepholm, he needs to attack them and go for it. So he'd have a war with the dragonflights on his hands. He would win this, but not quickly. If Arthas attacked full force, they'd put up a real fight and it wouldn't just be Alexstrasza there.

    Alliance and Horde I strongly disagree that they would not notice if their leaders were converted, especially if you take into account that on the Alliance side half of the palace guards and both the leaders of the Church of the Holy Light were secretly N'zoth's agents. So, no, Arthas could not have Alliance and Horde, unless he fights for it, which is another warfront opened. Would he win? Yes, but not quickly.
    Unless he could go for it and take it all over in one fell swoop while everyone is still sleeping from the Nightmare-attack. I do not know how that works if N'zoth already has their souls in his grasp. Had the Scourge attacked during that, maybe it would have been good for N'zoth, because Malfurion and the druids would have been distracted.

    So about that attack from the Old God forces in Dragonblight. This attack on the dragons had to take place with the right timing and after all the other battlefields were won. But! it was mainly necessary because Thrall was there and could help the Dragonflights. Had the Lich King won, Thrall would still be leader of the Horde and as such, converted to undeath. No need for Deathwing to divert resources so he could take the united Dragonflights and whatnot, no 'world shaman' ready to interfere, nothing.

    Again, two problems for Arthas: 1. Time, because he'd have to fight his way to actual world dominance every step of the way and he would have to achieve it by the time Deathwing beaks out of Deepholm, because as soon as that happens, 2. he is the only target left for Deathwing and N'zoth.
    And I disagree on at least Ragnaros, he was firmly under the control of N'zoth. So N'zoth takes the Ancients, (which is kind of a thing) the second Well of Eternity atop Mount Hyjal in a matter of days. N'zoth doesn't have to divert any resources to fight anyone else but the Lich King and can start attacking Dragonblight at once, without the dragonflights putting up a fight (apart from the ones that are already under the Lich King's control), no world shaman, no Dragonsoul to fight him with. Also, N'zoth brings Ragnaros to the battlefield, which does seem kind of a problem for an undead army.

    So again, to me it seems more like had the Lich King tried an actual power move after winning at Ice Crown by taking the Alliance and Horde leaders and raising Galakrond, this would have been his undoing. As he would still have been Arthas at that point, he probably would have tried that.
    Had he done nothing and simply acted very secretly, gathered power and put his champions into place for maybe a push when the actual fight in the Dragonblight begins, his chances may have been better, but mainly because everyone else could have acted the same way and beaten back Deathwing and N'zoth at every turn like they did when Arthas lost at Icecrown. Then walk in, join with the rest (who may have been still wary about him, but well, an ally is an ally if you're already in the middle of a fight and low on resources), wait til all forces disperse, because they won and the war against Deathwing is over and then... boom stroll over to Galakrond, raise him, conquer the world. Yes, that would have worked, because then everyone was gone, the others would have let down their guard and the armies of the mortals were fighting in Pandaria.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by formerShandalay View Post
    Well, the thing with Kalec is a bit strange, because in the book it happened a bit different and before the actual Cataclysm even happened (but not sure anymore, have not read the whole thing in a long time ^^)
    But really, he is unimportant at that time, because the only thing that is important is that Malygos isn't attacking the other flights anymore and the distraction caused by the Nexus War is gone. So until the Cataclysm the other dragons are free to try and stop the Lich King, when he attacks them. If he wants Galakrond before Deathwing rises from Deepholm, he needs to attack them and go for it. So he'd have a war with the dragonflights on his hands. He would win this, but not quickly. If Arthas attacked full force, they'd put up a real fight and it wouldn't just be Alexstrasza there.

    Alliance and Horde I strongly disagree that they would not notice if their leaders were converted, especially if you take into account that on the Alliance side half of the palace guards and both the leaders of the Church of the Holy Light were secretly N'zoth's agents. So, no, Arthas could not have Alliance and Horde, unless he fights for it, which is another warfront opened. Would he win? Yes, but not quickly.
    Unless he could go for it and take it all over in one fell swoop while everyone is still sleeping from the Nightmare-attack. I do not know how that works if N'zoth already has their souls in his grasp. Had the Scourge attacked during that, maybe it would have been good for N'zoth, because Malfurion and the druids would have been distracted.

    So about that attack from the Old God forces in Dragonblight. This attack on the dragons had to take place with the right timing and after all the other battlefields were won. But! it was mainly necessary because Thrall was there and could help the Dragonflights. Had the Lich King won, Thrall would still be leader of the Horde and as such, converted to undeath. No need for Deathwing to divert resources so he could take the united Dragonflights and whatnot, no 'world shaman' ready to interfere, nothing.

    Again, two problems for Arthas: 1. Time, because he'd have to fight his way to actual world dominance every step of the way and he would have to achieve it by the time Deathwing beaks out of Deepholm, because as soon as that happens, 2. he is the only target left for Deathwing and N'zoth.
    And I disagree on at least Ragnaros, he was firmly under the control of N'zoth. So N'zoth takes the Ancients, (which is kind of a thing) the second Well of Eternity atop Mount Hyjal in a matter of days. N'zoth doesn't have to divert any resources to fight anyone else but the Lich King and can start attacking Dragonblight at once, without the dragonflights putting up a fight (apart from the ones that are already under the Lich King's control), no world shaman, no Dragonsoul to fight him with. Also, N'zoth brings Ragnaros to the battlefield, which does seem kind of a problem for an undead army.

    So again, to me it seems more like had the Lich King tried an actual power move after winning at Ice Crown by taking the Alliance and Horde leaders and raising Galakrond, this would have been his undoing. As he would still have been Arthas at that point, he probably would have tried that.
    Had he done nothing and simply acted very secretly, gathered power and put his champions into place for maybe a push when the actual fight in the Dragonblight begins, his chances may have been better, but mainly because everyone else could have acted the same way and beaten back Deathwing and N'zoth at every turn like they did when Arthas lost at Icecrown. Then walk in, join with the rest (who may have been still wary about him, but well, an ally is an ally if you're already in the middle of a fight and low on resources), wait til all forces disperse, because they won and the war against Deathwing is over and then... boom stroll over to Galakrond, raise him, conquer the world. Yes, that would have worked, because then everyone was gone, the others would have let down their guard and the armies of the mortals were fighting in Pandaria.
    please tell me how arthas gona win against the dragon flights, when he only was able to kill one matute dragon in his life and that needed an army already. Also ......Alextrasza can also raise a undead army any time she wants.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by ArenaDk View Post
    please tell me how arthas gona win against the dragon flights, when he only was able to kill one matute dragon in his life and that needed an army already. Also ......Alextrasza can also raise a undead army any time she wants.
    Alex can not raise an undead army, but the Lich King can. What the Lich King has going for him are wars of attrition. He'd have all of his 'champions', the once mortal heroes (remember that up there is a scenario where the Lich King won at Icecrown) plus the Ebon Blade plus the Argent Crusade. Alexstrasza was already getting on only barely against the Scourge in her own domain before. Every dead blue dragon and every dead red dragon that took part in the Nexus War is one dragon more for the Lich King. The Blues were infighting, they would not have joined the others in a fight against the Lich King. So the Lich King winning would be my guess.

    On the other hand, if he didn't win against the dragons, that would only reinforce my original point: that he could not walk out into the Dragonblight, raise Galakrond and then win against Deathwing all by himself, had he won at Icecrown.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by formerShandalay View Post
    Alex can not raise an undead army, but the Lich King can. What the Lich King has going for him are wars of attrition. He'd have all of his 'champions', the once mortal heroes (remember that up there is a scenario where the Lich King won at Icecrown) plus the Ebon Blade plus the Argent Crusade. Alexstrasza was already getting on only barely against the Scourge in her own domain before. Every dead blue dragon and every dead red dragon that took part in the Nexus War is one dragon more for the Lich King. The Blues were infighting, they would not have joined the others in a fight against the Lich King. So the Lich King winning would be my guess.

    On the other hand, if he didn't win against the dragons, that would only reinforce my original point: that he could not walk out into the Dragonblight, raise Galakrond and then win against Deathwing all by himself, had he won at Icecrown.

    you know in the book night of the dragon Krasus explains that red dragons have no problem raising undead and even shows how easy it is?

  5. #145
    Elemental Lord Golden Yak's Avatar
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    There's probably gonna be, like, a new Super Scourge now.

    Shadow Scourge.

  6. #146
    The Scourge wasn't overrated. They are a greater threat to us than the Old Gods and Legion ever will if you don't include Sargeras. It's just Sylvanas is on a whole different level now. She basically cleaved through the entire Scourge Empire, a empire that could had overwhelmed Azeroth if they wanted to like nothing. So if the Scourge was ever overrated, it's that the new Sylvanas made them look overrated.
    Updated Power Level - Jailer >> Arbiter>> Sargeras >> Sylvanas >> Locust Walker >> Reality Ending Level Prisoners within the Maw>> Covenant Leaders >> Lich King Bolvar >> Argus >> Galakrond >> Azshara >> N'zoth >> Lich King Arthas >> Odyn >>Helya >> Wrathion >> Jaina >> Kil'jaeden >> Archimonde >> Illidan>> Deathwing >> Lei Shen >> Mannaroth

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by LarryWithTheWeatherReport View Post
    The Scourge wasn't overrated. They are a greater threat to us than the Old Gods and Legion ever will if you don't include Sargeras. It's just Sylvanas is on a whole different level now. She basically cleaved through the entire Scourge Empire, a empire that could had overwhelmed Azeroth if they wanted to like nothing. So if the Scourge was ever overrated, it's that the new Sylvanas made them look overrated.
    Apparently they are overrated, given what the new Trailer just showed us they are not a threat at all.

  8. #148
    The Unstoppable Force
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    Quote Originally Posted by LarryWithTheWeatherReport View Post
    The Scourge wasn't overrated. They are a greater threat to us than the Old Gods and Legion ever will if you don't include Sargeras. It's just Sylvanas is on a whole different level now. She basically cleaved through the entire Scourge Empire, a empire that could had overwhelmed Azeroth if they wanted to like nothing. So if the Scourge was ever overrated, it's that the new Sylvanas made them look overrated.
    They didn't really seem to care too much about Sylvanas honestly. The fact that she could just ascend the entire citadel and that Bolvar was just waiting for her was very odd. Well either that or he really underestimated her

    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Yak View Post
    There's probably gonna be, like, a new Super Scourge now.

    Shadow Scourge.
    Iron Scourge, obviously.

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