Bring "normal gear" back?

[Kallisto]

I like a system where the best gear are not obtainable by most people. It should only be obtainable by the hardest content. But that's just my opinion

Or gear should be irrelevant and skill be the absolutely only defining issue. Not some shove down the throat of plebs epeen shit that "Hurr durr difficulty should make me show off."

Until a skilled player who might just do lfr due to time constraints can out perform a lesser skilled player that might be able to do mythic then means must be there for the more skilled person to out perform the shitter.

Eithet keep the procs or remove gear power.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

"Normal gear" is still there.
So is all the other gear though. So its a win win for everyone?
If you want to only use "normal" gear you can, and if you like having slot for slot customization and unique effects you can as well!

[Morssoe]

It really, really isn't. My suggestion is to make rewards for more difficult content cosmetic and prestige based, rather than gear based. Let skill be the determining factor for difficulty, not gear. Shift away from a gear based rewards system that requires copious catchup mechanics and constant ilvl increases.

RPG game where defeating stronger enemies doesn't make you stronger.

[Kaver]

"Normal gear" is still there.
So is all the other gear though. So its a win win for everyone?
If you want to only use "normal" gear you can, and if you like having slot for slot customization and unique effects you can as well!

Azerite gear and Essences don't add much customization. Especially not when thinking about how much time Blizzard have used to develop these systems. As an Outlaw Rogue I have used almost the same talents, traits and essences (after these were added) the whole expansion for all content. The only thing I change is switching between Blood of the Enemy and Condensed Life-Force. Why have 3 different systems when none of them are adding any value.

[jellmoo]

RPG game where defeating stronger enemies doesn't make you stronger.

Not what I'm suggesting. I'm just suggesting we streamline the gearing process so that it's simple, obvious, linear and allows everyone to see the sontent the want and progress through more difficult content at the same rate. Difficult versions of the same content offer rewards independent of stats.

For example:

Reach max level -> You have quest Greens.

Run Dungeons (Regardless of difficulty) -> You gear up with Blues, with pieces specific to specific dungeons

Do Raids (Regardless of difficulty) -> You get your Purples, with pieces specific to specific Raids

Increasing the difficulty on anything, from Normal to Heroic to Mythic doesn't give you higher ilvl gear. It gives titles, cosmetic items, mounts, vanity items, etc...

The way the game handles itemization right now is all over the place. Content becomes irrelevant within the same expansion, gearing up becomes something done through grinds and RNG, and the whole system is incredibly non obvious and unintuitive. Blizzard continues to use ilvl on gear as the carrot to get people to do the content, which has ballooned the difference between max level toons and is being made the only reward worth anything.

I want to see a straight forward system that lets gear progress in a linear fashion, is simple and obvious, rewards skill with other items and makes skill and coordination the winning strategy, not just higher ilvl gear.

[Drusin]

I would rather have one well-functioning system, then 3 half-arsed systems.

Agreed+10c

[Weeps]

What I want:

1) no Wf/Tf-Ing of any kind. No 0/4 upgrades , nothing.
2) bring back gear reforging because we don’t always have the gear we’d like.
3) bring enchanting back to the way it was in classic, nearly every piece gets enchanted.

[kaminaris]

Or gear should be irrelevant and skill be the absolutely only defining issue. Not some shove down the throat of plebs epeen shit that "Hurr durr difficulty should make me show off."

Until a skilled player who might just do lfr due to time constraints can out perform a lesser skilled player that might be able to do mythic then means must be there for the more skilled person to out perform the shitter.

Eithet keep the procs or remove gear power.

It is partially like this today. That is how you spot bad players: "I can't do dps unless i get that trinket/azerite/weapon". Method killed azshara with 435, people struggling to kill it with nerfs and 445.

[swatsonqt]

It's the same now, and thanks to blizz removing titanforge, now with corruption people actually need to do the hardest content for the best gear again, the way it was always meant to work, titanforge/wf gone, good riddance.

yeah that's also the way that people leave the game^^
if you can't progress your character there is no point in playing.

And nobody is going to say " oh well he only has 430 ilvl but damn that boi got some good corrupted gear imma inv him"

simply not going to happen. And if you're not invited there is no point in playing.

I think people don't understand how much they needed titanforging

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heres something fun, you can ignore the corrupted system entirely by cleansing the items and moving on.

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well these days you would also have to have tokens drop from m+ and pvp. but not too much because there are no lockouts. then we can get people arguing what takes more skill etc, etc.

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well, with titanforging gone you likely have to do the highest content to get the best gear. so have fun.

"we thought that when we increased the difficultly players would rise and stand up for that challenge. But they simply logged off instead"

i think we're having fun in an empty world

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Imagine you had to to the highest level of content do obtain the highest level gear, mind-blowing!

i have no problem at all with obtaining highest ear from highest content.

But locking said gear behind a mythic raid is what will cause people to quit because they can't get the best things and don't want to put up with the burden of a raid team.

Give a Gear equivalent from pvp and m+ and everything is fine but having that stuff in the raid only...well i guess most people know how that ends

[Thabod]

System is good to work

[swatsonqt]

I like a system where the best gear are not obtainable by most people. It should only be obtainable by the hardest content. But that's just my opinion

what's your definition of hardest content?

Is it hard to spend multiple hours a week braindead wiping from boss to boss until the last person finally understood what to do?
Is it hard to do the worlds highest key?

i think it is good that not anybody can obtain everything. But if mythic raiding is the only source...that's a big nono

[Pakheth]

I've been wanting this ever since they introduced random stats on gear in WoD.

The chance of a small upgrade in MoP with was fine. It was rare and a nice surprise. What we have now is just insane and ruins every good feeling over getting a new piece of gear. Gear has never felt this pointless. It's just numbers. And I can't tell you the name of a single item since WoD since it's all random stats and no item really leaves a mark due to it's randomness and therefore are not memorable enough to stand out.

[Kaver]

what's your definition of hardest content?

Is it hard to spend multiple hours a week braindead wiping from boss to boss until the last person finally understood what to do?
Is it hard to do the worlds highest key?

i think it is good that not anybody can obtain everything. But if mythic raiding is the only source...that's a big nono

Right now the hardest PVE content in the game is Mythic Aszhara and extremely high m+ keys. The weekly chest from completing a simple +10 key should not give the same level of reward as killing Mythic Aszhara. In my opinion.

[Redroniksre]

I mean really i think they should only put gear in mythic raids, no gear dropping from any other source. I mean if people dont need it... (Sad thing is i am sure some people here would like that. Thats why we dont have armchair developers).

Though i actually agree, they rely to heavily on rng but you need a mix of rng and control to allow an optimal system. I would also like to see strides made on solo content to be the equivalent of mythic (can be done, see mage tower). Remember, you cant use "But raids require cooperation!" When it is the raid leader calling those shots most of the time, not the lowly peasants. If anything, they should get the top gear, not the rest of the raid who mostly just stays to themselves.

[swatsonqt]

If you want some rewards its only appropriate you do the content required to get these rewards.
Its good to have something to strife for and not getting everything handed to you.

Yeah but why has it to be by mythic raiding only?
Is Doing m+ at 15 or above not good enough for high rewards?
Is playing arena rbg at (idk what rating would be appripriate..1700? 2000 ?) not hard enough content for high rewards?

Why on earth must it be mythic raiding that in comparison "nobody does".

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Right now the hardest PVE content in the game is Mythic Aszhara and extremely high m+ keys. The weekly chest from completing a simple +10 key should not give the same level of reward as killing Mythic Aszhara. In my opinion.

signed.

But why cant it be + 15 + 20 or whatever where you still can get the good stuff?

As corrupted gear stands most people would be stuck in (speaking in 8.2 ilvl range) 430 gear.
When there are player out there with 445 430 is just bad.
If you're bad you're not invited.

So even if you want to become better at anything else you have to take part in mythic raids.

I can't be the only one who thinks that this system is doomed to fail.
Mythic raiding is a dying beast which decreases in player engagement year by year... doesn't make sense to support a mode thats (in comparison) done by nobody

[Kaver]

Yeah but why has it to be by mythic raiding only?
Is Doing m+ at 15 or above not good enough for high rewards?
Is playing arena rbg at (idk what rating would be appripriate..1700? 2000 ?) not hard enough content for high rewards?

Why on earth must it be mythic raiding that in comparison "nobody does".

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signed.

But why cant it be + 15 + 20 or whatever where you still can get the good stuff?

As corrupted gear stands most people would be stuck in (speaking in 8.2 ilvl range) 430 gear.
When there are player out there with 445 430 is just bad.
If you're bad you're not invited.

So even if you want to become better at anything else you have to take part in mythic raids.

I can't be the only one who thinks that this system is doomed to fail.
Mythic raiding is a dying beast which decreases in player engagement year by year... doesn't make sense to support a mode thats (in comparison) done by nobody

It could definitely also be m+ content. I’m not at all suggesting that gear should be exclusive to raiding. However I just think that +10 is way to low/easy.

At the same time I also don’t think the 3 first bosses in Mythic EP should give the same level of reward as the 3 last bosses because they are waaaay easier. The difficulty of these bosses cannot even be compared.

[Gaidax]

I prefer having WF/TF because it is a nice touch when raid is cleared and you are farming with a guild waiting for next content drop. Also occasional uber item dropping is a nice touch.

I do want sets back, but mostly because of more unique class touch they give. I do, after all, want to have Warlock sets and not generic theme of the month X sets.

I do like Azerite items, it's cool to have items that are a bit more than just stats sticks/patches.

Benthic, IMO, is a so-so idea, it's not terrible, but I don't like all these shenanigans where it's better than mythic raid items. I got 455 boots off Mythic Azshara and I can't use these because Benthic Boots are simply better, it's just wrong.

[Alkizon]

Funny. There was relatively right direction of key idea somewhere in the middle of topic, but it died out.

Let me tell you, in short, one old story that I have repeatedly repeated and emphasized:
- equipment is not your class, only bearer of characteristics, specializations (it's more correct to say “talents' build” because "spec" is dead concept) mostly aren't take away or add class mechanics, but only make those or other more preferred to use. The end of story.

---

What follows from this? Equipment is carrier of characteristics (about which topic begun to talk, but stoped), characteristics determine your role, and I'm not talking about these wretched, barely tortured three roles and one buried, but about those that you yourself will choose based on set of characteristics and talents, which means that they can't be “interesting” in principle, can't contain any “key class mechanics” = changing class mechanics (don’t even stutter, everything will turn into dolceous AA and its derivatives, also here thoughts about tier gear).
This part of system will never be normal until game has acquired complete, universal system of characteristics, well-thought and, like all ingenious, extremely simple(+/+). All that they are giving you is not universal, it’s temporary from prospect of taking it from you and changing it equivalently and in a circle, just like “class” affixes in any equipment... type. I don’t even want to delve into it, but you know yourself how much all those systems are trying to overplay, invade, enslave class fantasy from outside, starting with PvP talents and ending with "so interesting" characteristics.
----------------------------------------
For example, completely simple hierarchy of equipment within "same ilvl" from PvE content may look something like this:
- assume that colorless stone is lowest quality and rainbow (most expensive/rare/one-per-item/set-gear) one considered suitable for any slot
- “can” = could have space for (fully/partially/none, depending on what devs decide for this particular item)
- most customization is expandable and replaceable through professions, "reputations", etc if there is possibility and necessity
1) whites - have only “defense”/“attack” line as a characteristic, can have 1 simple enchantment;
2) greens - mainly obtained by quests/simple drop and additionally have up to 2 lines of basic stats as characteristics, can have up to 2 holes for colorless stones and contain up to 2 simple enchantments;
3) blues - from dungeons/quests' chains/rare drop, in additional to previous also have up to 2 lines of secondary characteristics, can have place for 1 ordinary and 1 special enchantment, and up to 2 holes for colored stones with bonus of 1 colorless if colors are being observed;
4) purples - from dungeons/raids, in additional to previous also have additional line of “informal” secondary characteristics (rate of self-healing, absorbability, indestructibility, additional, but miserable and not-class'-specific D/HOT/control, etc.), can have 2 places for special enchantments and up to 3 places for colored stones with the same bonus as blue ones;
5) Here could be also kind of gold stuff... but I'm not sure.
6) tiers will have bonuses in form of secondary characteristics - green, stats & secondary characteristics - blue, stats & secondary characteristics & very short temporary bonuses for the group - purple, which in case of their raid origin will represent some possible special parameters("team spirit") for particular raid defenses/attack (acting on certain type of monsters or giving certain type of defense, which will somewhat simplify subsequent passage of this content, with every part of tier also adding just ~1% of (e.g. sum buff for whole raid (= people)), or... whatever; also some words about its art style).

- what about upgrading? well, not sure about need of that, but all right, let it be mostly kind of MoP-like with being controlled by player 2/4 ilvl of 2 gradual steps

upgrading “items” can be obtained in adequate volume precisely from "that" part of content+progress that these upgrades allow/require (just as they did back with arena vs BG, raids vs dungeon with specific currency, firsts had more opportunities and potential, while second were limited in volume of receipt by ilvl and gain - this is very standard catch-up mechanics (if you remember - ceiling increased in cases when you missed your time + each season reset + more flexible lead times), and main thing - “healthy”, required your active participation, in contrast to "next patch scalable" items/content; it doesn't matter in this case if this currency is spent on upgrade or on purchase of alternative equivalent equip). Also don't forget about exchange PvP/PvE currency between each other.

Kralljin
(meanwhile in TBC, Arena points merely dictated the pace at which you acquired items, not their actual power)

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ps. By the way, 2/4 ilvl can be quite adequate upgrades, main thing is to properly distribute/configure characteristics' performance. They don’t need to do inadequate easing of requirements (DPS/HPS for certain encounters), just equalize indicators a little, since you have a lot of items on you, and now add to each of them upgrades... not a little, does it?

By the way, upgrades' system isn't bad for lengthening the process (if you really want to torment PvP players)... but not so many steps, guys, have a conscience, MoP's 2/4ilvl extra steps system for each tier is enough here (especially considering how much I hate abnormal stat inflation you generate), otherwise, price of upgrades should be minimal. Also... why only PvP then, how about same stuff for PvE, mmm?

Add here all high-level upgrades from above (craftsmen are "cheering" here) which could required boe+bop reagents&recipes that tied to raid (or terrain comparable with them on hardness) only, which will also a certain type of upgrade. Also here we talked a little about catch-ups.

Not necessary literally this, but something like... and, I repeat, it’s all within same ilvl = with completely insignificant increase in direct basic stats, no RNG (mostly, since no point in inventing literally every item so "generated" low-(level/quality) "no-name" loot/craft is acceptable because it doesn't really change weather, even kind of generated content-tiers, which consist of such items, so parts can be easily replaced, but without fanaticism in this, since, considering tier bonuses, each separately taken its item can/should be worse than non-tier one), no x-forge items, no personal loot and no millions of difficulties, etc, with caveat that everything that is contained in base item without connecting various kinds of customization - this is only 60-95% of its "power" potential depending on available upgrades and taking into account additional special capabilities of various craftsmen.

- possible problems in form, that automatic search system can't work with such stuff (ilvl-based participants' selection), are solved simply, it's (a.s.s.) cut out to hell from the system and everyone safely forget about it over time - But what about CRZ grouping then? - Oh, I'm sure game won't need it, by the way - never did

By the way, taking this opportunity, I would like to spit at auto-search system in this case. Do you know why? Its check/setup is very dependent on attachment of role with spec ("customization" must clearly express role in order to pass its verification, but old system of "roles", as already mentioned, required rather effective "gear" check for this). There is big desire to say that it was for the sake of this rubbish that whole tomfoolery was started, since hybrids were "unsuitable"/interfered with similar system.

----------------------------------------
As for this "so-called plan" with corrupted equipment, it, like all other attempts to create temporary solutions, is exactly what I called them - a temporary and often ineffective solution. We discussed this in topics with AA, in topics with x-forge equipment, since everything that they try to solve separately continues (no matter how much they would like to change it, but) to be interconnected. For example, you raised question of “who is worthy to get improved equipment”
- - -
honestly, this so called fact that "people, for current system, can choose content based on their preferences" is universal nonsense (OK, they can, but), current system has corrupted community so much that those majority, for which all this was sort of done, will choose not what they like to do, but what will be easier and faster = more efficient, and none of your arguments change this, just current system "taught" them to acting this way... so yes, but *shaking head negatively* NO, see? *pointing down*

StrawberryZebra
That leaves me in a place where I don't know what content I should be doing to get gear upgrades, and can't recognise them when they come along.

- be careful with whom and how you try to help, because bad help is no help; just stick to base design rules, this is what was originally expected from you, these are your direct purpose and responsibility
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but according to progress hierarchy, raids should be the most difficult PvE content (so endpoint of full accessible content/story and progress), both from mechanical and social point of view (your challenges with stupid systems with infinitely amount of complexities should never (not just appearing, but) ever even be considered within framework of this concept; you want challenge? - do it for fun/optional-cosmetics and don't ask to spoil working system for this) => changes in organization of progress and accessibility of content, in social regulation led to destabilization of entire system: growth rate of characteristics, prioritize in RPG-customization, and thus approach to creation talents, and thus damage class design ideology and as result - you get here *pointing at current game version* Therefore, no matter how much you say about fact that “people just leave the game from difficulties”, you aren't right simply because you proceed from its current design: from availability of universally fast and easily accessible equipment, from incredible growth (see forge-items&multi-difficulties systems as main reasons) of stats and characteristics within (now), not even expansions, but portions of content, from short, but with many difficulties dungeons and same stupid raids, from "depersonalizing/individualizing gameplay" social organization of servers, etc. In other words, when we argue, we not only look from different angles of view, but also at completely different "resulting" design systems... but it's if we assume that you're able to think more globally, and not only within "current private inconvenience".

I didn’t really go deep into reading this stupid thing, but... is "corrupted" available everywhere or only for raids? Does this "thing" make participation in raids unique, or is it still cross-content porn? It's just that everyone is shouting about next RNG layer - it's certainly bad, that it's somehow trying to change something that should not have been touched at all - same bad, but maybe at least that moment they began to understand... Hah?

---

Do I want a simple system? I have long ago answered this question:

kamuimac
and ? 99% of playerbase dont play like this.

If it's about "current playerbase" then don't know, it could be, may be. But I couldn't name any of my friends whom I could include in these 99% back then, if to make discount on "tolerance", so let it be 50%, but in fact there were not so many as you think. Yes, not everyone did it well, but they made attempts to understand, mash the brain at least. We aren't even talking about this, but about whole system (classes(mechanics)+talents+stats/characteristics+tuning=RPG), it was much less complicated before! easier to analyze and understand than now. Naturally, yes, you don't need to understand it to play now, but if you suddenly will want, it'll probably take more time... and for what? Most of dependencies and information are not even tied to your character, but lying around somewhere in the mud (PvP talents, Azerite armor, etc.) tightly adhered to it and not accessible to you. Therefore, as one of the most lazy, but curious people, I would gladly change current system to old one at any time.

These people know what ideologically I'm talking about:

By the way: they still don't want to give up "box" rewards, without looking at all talk about "loot is loot", but by definition, loot is loot in the first place when it drops from boss for any whole party, that can kill it, and in only single/possible "instance", without scaling to spec/level/ilvl *pointing finger at new weekly loot boxing system* Well, where is fixed loot table and linear progres system? None of this, just idle talk.

Chosen characteristics are your role customization mechanism and gear is its main keeper, so customization = gear matters.
No matter how many items of this level exist with different characteristics, the main thing is that you have a controlled choice. Therefore, the more items at your disposal, the more opportunities you have for customization, but since gear=customization, than it remains important.
- He assumes that everyone chooses a piece of clothing depending on general characteristics he/she prefers for the own role (it could be even rogue tank/support, everything possible, gear is your role not you class, remember DKs from WotLK, that's why guardian/feral fills no problem in been at the same talent branch, but they changed/broke it). They aren't tied to character general progression (= class; unlike silly AA), they are tied to progress in expansion (= gear). And there is no such stupid stuff like many random items on 1 id = scaling to ilvl/lvl/spec (scaling/RNG=automatic=not your choice≈no choice for current system); characteristics are fixed on this particular item (you can disturb them a little with reforging and that's all, than put more effort with professions and here you go - you have all control over your customization):
You have control over choose which item you need, know where and how get it and how you will custom it.
- Hail the player, f*ck devs' dictatorship

This is another of many reasons why people are used to "skipping" "rushing" systems, trash has no significance (items-objectives, reagents, reputation, whatever) except to slow down player, bosses don't conventionally have any loot as such, so whole party rosily and cheerfully rushing to the "end" to get this "lootbox", and they don't need whole dungeon as such, as place/lore/challenge - this is what happened with one of significant element of progress and lore in the game under influence of M+ system

...but such kind of freedom imposes certain requirements on system, which may entail rejection of something that, due to greed and laziness, they probably won't want to refuse.

What do I think of characteristics such as hit, mastery, expertise, spirit, mp5, etc? - excellent characteristics, which not only help in organizing limits of power growth rate, catch-up mechanics, separation of interests in players’ participation (PvP vs PvE), sequence of progress, but also in separation of game roles and maintaining integrity of fantasy of particular game universe (immersion price).

2. Characteristics (&shame to PvP talent system + time-gate/catch-up, item-case) +(+/+/+/+/+/+)+/+/+

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Description of system initially used outside of regular loot (badges and other currency):

In fact, everything was easier. In other words there was(+/+/+):
rank 1 currency, unlimited in amount of receipted, just in having each those (it gives basic set and upgrades to it in both PvP and PvE),
rank 2 with cap (for PvP it was limited by week interval; for PvE I don’t remember exactly, but it seems that there were several different items required to buy tier pieces in addition to base raid currency, and for usual 2 rank currency it was possible to buy only alternative off-set pieces (at first it didn't has rank 2, just more badge "costly" stuff (shouldn't have characteristics' "belonging" to content/type of activity), and limited by number of "heroic bosses" dropping it once a week, yes - yes, we are talking one more time about that M+ is turd for such mechanics, however, as well as for many other stuff)). Amount and receiving speed of 2nd rank currency in PvP depended on rating and content, PvE had natural limitation in form of raids and their CD, so also content + Additional daily/weekly quests to win/beat, which, however, didn't give you opportunity to go beyond cap.

It seems that exchange existed, but with such an exorbitant ratio that in current season/tier wasn't used by anyone, only after its de-actualization and price change/reduction (imo this is very good and correct, PvP/PvE currency must be different same as items, if you want full-fledged desired currency, take part in specific content, therefore, I won't welcome exchange of especially rank 2). I remember that I spent rank 1 on items that transfer corresponding currency to my other characters, less active ones (aka passive twinking), and after that - to buy items that could simply be sold to vender for gold.

Each new tier/season savings were resetting and(or) degrade.

- correct me, people, if i'm wrong somewhere here

This is with regard to currency, and now upgrades - I'm very skeptical about them within framework of general itemization model (because this affects stretching of season/tier ilvl range (=inflation), same was my attitude for t/wf's one part of problem), but, for example, MoP option was more or less suited to me. Take for example hypothetical general function of upgrades where each source of items has certain content ceiling, above which person taking part in one can't jump. Thus, you'll not be able to get items of rank inappropriate to your progress. Somehow get closer as possible - yes, but to reach - no. I'm not sure how pertinently it's for current thread, but I'd like to emphasize separately that simply don't take most kind of "scaling/Legendaries" as adequate system.

So... take and compare adequate stuff that was with what you're trying to offer today, hmm?..

ps. Don't play too much with upgrades, you can overshoot the mark with it.

[Dug]

Before I would have said no but after playing classic yeah there is something nice about just gunning for a single piece of gear, getting it and not comparing it to its Heroic/Mythic/Titanforge/Warforged version.

[Halyon]

Meh, I liked the smaller TF from MoP, just a little bonus, nothing major, but the rest can piss off. I would like token vendors back though.