retail: subtlety rogues don't have any rep for class balancing.

[Kaver]

Didn't know this was a private club. Didn't know you had no say in the discussion unless you've got a vip pass.

When there's silly people making silly claims and demanding silly things everyone should be allowed to point out the silliness of said person.

Like, yea, sucks to be a sub fan right now. The reality of the situation is that it's not gonna just randomly change any time soon though. Other specs have been in similar situations for far longer and have received basically 0 attention. Sub is what it is and it will stay that way until the end of BFA - your only hope is 9.0 and that's about it.

Sub is mechanically broken right now. We agree on that.

However, if you really look at the logs, then a 15 % buff to Sub is not crazy to ask for. The only thing Sub can do right now is Single target damage as Sub got no AOE or Cleave. Therefore Sub should logically be one of the specs with the highest potential in terms of single target damage. However if you look at the max logs you will see that the best score of a Sub Rogue on Mythic Abyssal Commander Sivara is around 55 k where as the best score for a Fire mage is 65 k. The reason why I look at the maximum logs is because that is the best indication for the maximum potential (the ceiling) of the spec. Since Sub got no AOE or Cleave, it should be closer to the Fire Mage on a single target fight in terms of the maximum potential and that would require a 15-20 % buff.

Also, Sub is one of the most punishing specs in the game so playing it perfectly (to the maximum potential) should give you a nice reward.

[Gasparde]

Sub is mechanically broken right now. We agree on that.

However, if you really look at the logs, then a 15 % buff to Sub is not crazy to ask for. The only thing Sub can do right now is Single target damage as Sub got no AOE or Cleave. Therefore Sub should logically be one of the specs with the highest potential in terms of single target damage. However if you look at the max logs you will see that the best score of a Sub Rogue on Mythic Abyssal Commander Sivara is around 55 k where as the best score for a Fire mage is 65 k. The reason why I look at the maximum logs is because that is the best indication for the maximum potential (the ceiling) of the spec. Since Sub got no AOE or Cleave, it should be closer to the Fire Mage on a single target fight in terms of the maximum potential and that would require a 15-20 % buff.

Also, Sub is one of the most punishing specs in the game so playing it perfectly (to the maximum potential) should give you a nice reward.

One would have to agree that if a spec is horrible in AOE situations it should be good in ST situations instead. After all, that's exactly what Blizzard has been advocating for the last like 4 years - niches, strengths, distinct weaknesses, unique utility, all that good stuff. And maybe that could actually work... but we don't know. Because, frankly, Blizzard is full of shit. There are specs that are horrible at ST but gods at AOE, there are specs that are horrible at AOE but gods at ST... and then there's specs that are gods at everything and specs that are just shit on everything. Like, the idea of specs having niches doesn't work if there are specs that fill all niches - for the longest time we've had specs like DH or Outlaw just reign over m+ because they didn't have any relevant downsides, meanwhile a Shadow Priest or a Moonkin could basically go afk on big trash pulls because their damage is just shit... all for the odd chance of maybe doing a bit more boss damage later on in the dungeon.

Like, their system doesn't work if it's not applied to everyone. And many specs suffer from that currently. You just can't have Feral be absolute dogshit at AOE... and then also have them be absolute dogshit in ST for the longest time. You just can't have Ele Shamans deal like no ST damage unless they get 5 back to back Ascension procs just because they do really good AOE damage... while at the same time a DH just presses Eye Beam to deal the same AOE damage while also leaving the Ele in the dust on ST. A weakness & strength system doesn't work if not all specs are equally weak and strength... although even then you'd still have to wager how fair it is for a spec to be god at ST and shit at AOE in a tier with 1 ST boss, 10 AOE bosses and a seasonal AOE m+ affix. It just sucks. Heterogeneous spec design and balance don't mesh well.

And in terms of complexity / punishment for mistakes... again... welcome to Arcane Mages for the last like 5 years (although I think that changed with BFA, haven't really played that gutted shit spec at all recently).

[shoegazing]

Of course it should have Cleave. That's WoW in 2019. Get over it. I want to be able to play Sub in M+ and do good damage on 2-3 targets.

Also PVE >>>>>>>> PVP.

You should go live in the past on a MOP privat server.

Nah, Subtlety cannot be homogenized to cater to drooling PvE imbeciles without losing the essence of what is a Subtlety Rogue. Cleave damage is antithetical to the entire concept of the Subtlety Rogue.

If you want cleave damage you have other options, that's the beauty of playing a pure melee, agility based, leather wearing dps class with 3 different specs.

Subtlety is a PvP first spec and it always has been. Subtlety isn't for you. Go lick your meters and execute scripted encounter mechanics as another spec.

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Sub is what it is and it will stay that way until the end of BFA - your only hope is 9.0 and that's about it.

Wow, thank you captain obvious, do you have any more amazing deductive insights that you can share with us

[Kaver]

Nah, Subtlety cannot be homogenized to cater to drooling PvE imbeciles without losing the essence of what is a Subtlety Rogue. Cleave damage is antithetical to the entire concept of the Subtlety Rogue.

If you want cleave damage you have other options, that's the beauty of playing a pure melee, agility based, leather wearing dps class with 3 different specs.

Subtlety is a PvP first spec and it always has been. Subtlety isn't for you. Go lick your meters and execute scripted encounter mechanics as another spec.

Pvp in WoW is dead. Only complete losers are dwelling in the past and want the subtlety to cater to pvp. Most players want Sub to be a great spec for M+ and raiding. That’s how it is. Sub is a PVE spec now so it just sucks to be you. I’m starting to take great pleasure in knowing that you will never ever ever get your precious pre legion sub spec and you will stay miserable. Changing Sub after WOD was the single best thing that Blizzard ever did. Sub is my spec now sucker

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Wow, thank you captain obvious, do you have any more amazing deductive insights that you can share with us

Yes: Sub will never go back to the pre-legion version. Enjoy captain douche.

[shoegazing]

Pvp in WoW is dead. Only complete losers are dwelling in the past and want the subtlety to cater to pvp. Most players want Sub to be a great spec for M+ and raiding. That’s how it is. Sub is a PVE spec now so it just sucks to be you. I’m starting to take great pleasure in knowing that you will never ever ever get your precious pre legion sub spec and you will stay miserable. Changing Sub after WOD was the single best thing that Blizzard ever did. Sub is my spec now sucker. Go play Classic

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Yes: Sub will never go back to the pre-legion version. Enjoy captain douche.

Drooling PvE clowns are so greedy. "All 3 Rogue specs must be ours, 0 specs will be for PvPers. 2 Rogue specs wasn't enough for us, we have to take yours too"

You sound like a pig. I can just picture you shoveling cheetos and mtn dew into your face while you passively sleepwalk through scripted content and watch netflix on your 2nd monitor.

[Gasparde]

Wow, thank you captain obvious, do you have any more amazing deductive insights that you can share with us

Sry, didn't know this thread was limited to crying, demanding silly buffs and circlejerking.

[Unholyground]

Stop worrying about fotm imo. Unless your guild is pushing world firsts who gives a shit and play what you want to play.

[Kaver]

Drooling PvE clowns are so greedy. "All 3 Rogue specs must be ours, 0 specs will be for PvPers. 2 Rogue specs wasn't enough for us, we have to take yours too"

You sound like a pig. I can just picture you shoveling cheetos and mtn dew into your face while you passively sleepwalk through scripted content and watch netflix on your 2nd monitor.

Wow mate, someone struck a nerve. No need to be upset... oh wait... your dreams about Sub have been complete shattered and you will never see your precious pre-legion sub again, so I guess you have every reason to be upset.. oh well, I couldn't care less. I'm just happy that true Rogue players will have 3 specs available for PVE content in the future. PVP'ers can get the leftovers. Sucks to be shoegazing

[shoegazing]

Sry, didn't know this thread was limited to crying, demanding silly buffs and circlejerking.

Who is demanding buffs?

Subtlety's current tuning is the best thing that has happened to it since the Legion redesign. It's the closest thing we'll ever to Blizzard saying "yeah we really fucked this one up so we'd rather you just not play Subtlety right now until we get the chance to rework it."

The fewer people playing Subtlety in its current garbage state, the better. And trust me, it's a mighty small number right now.

[Kaver]

Who is demanding buffs?

Subtlety's current tuning is the best thing that has happened to it since the Legion redesign. It's the closest thing we'll ever to Blizzard saying "yeah we really fucked this one up so we'd rather you just not play Subtlety right now until we get the chance to rework it."

And you think it will be reworked into what you want... haha oh the stupidity

[Gasparde]

Who is demanding buffs?

The very fucking first post of this thread leads with I think sub needs at least a 20% buff. Like, the fuck?

[shoegazing]

The very fucking first post of this thread leads with I think sub needs at least a 20% buff. Like, the fuck?

Are you new here? OP of this thread has never once posted anything informed or insightful. Nobody reads what they have to say lol.

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And you think it will be reworked into what you want... haha oh the stupidity

If the current design is so great, why is it intentionally tuned into the dirt? You this is an accident?

[Varolyn]

Tuning numbers higher really won’t solve anything. When you get down to it sub is just a havoc demon hunter wielding daggers atm.

[Kaver]

If the current design is so great, why is it intentionally tuned into the dirt? You this is an accident?

Haha, a loser that cant admit defeat.

In 9.0 Assassination, Sub and Outlaw will all be created for Raiding and M+. WoW is developed around PVE content and PVP'er just need to bow into the dust and take whatever they can. That's how it should be. I'm happy

[Gasparde]

Are you new here? OP of this thread has never once posted anything informed or insightful. Nobody reads what they have to say lol.

I'm glad we could come to a reasonable agreement in the end. TIL: Disregard the OP's points of discussion and just talk about your random hopes and dreams if you don't wanna be called out

[shoegazing]

Tuning numbers higher really won’t solve anything. When you get down to it sub is just a havoc demon hunter wielding daggers atm.

Hey Kaver why don't you go reroll Havoc DH, buddy, the gameplay will be perfect for you.

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I'm glad we could come to a reasonable agreement in the end. TIL: Disregard the OP's points of discussion and just talk about your random hopes and dreams if you don't wanna be called out

Not all OPs, just this OP. Joke's on you if you take anything posted next to that avatar at all seriously lol. Welcome to the Rogue forums where the rest of us already knew this.... except for Kavar apparently, he actually agrees with that utter clown!

[Kaver]

Hey Kaver why don't you go reroll Havoc DH, buddy, the gameplay will be perfect for you.

No need, post WOD Rogue is perfect for me. We just need some small change to Subtlety like some cleave and AOE and everything will be perfect. What will make it even more perfect is the knowledge that people like you will never get your stupid pvp specs back. I'm thrilled

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where the rest of us already knew this.

"The rest of us" haha... there is no "us". You're alone mate. Completely alone. Nobody wants to be with a loser like you.

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except for Kavar apparently, he actually agrees with that utter clown!

I don't agree with the OP. But it doesn't surprise me that your narrow mind thinks I do. I just want what all other Rouges want and that is a Subtlety spec great for PVE content.

[JacobusRex]

Nobody reads what they have to say lol.

I've been reading your comments and you, whatever you are, need to get a life. You are just like most of the people on this forum who come on here just to put other people down and cast disparaging remarks for momentary self-aggrandizement. Your day-to-day life must be pretty sad if you come on to MMO Champion to spout vitriol like a ruptured sewage line.

[shoegazing]

I've been reading your comments and you, whatever you are, need to get a life. You are just like most of the people on this forum who come on here just to put other people down and cast disparaging remarks for momentary self-aggrandizement. Your day-to-day life must be pretty sad if you come on to MMO Champion to spout vitriol like a ruptured sewage line.

I bet you can't link a single intelligent, well-conceived post throughout the entire post history of the OP of this thread.

EDIT: Actually I take it back. After revisiting OP's post history, there are some decent points made in there.

[Naiattavain]

throw us a bone blizz our favorite spec was so fun to play in 2014 now its 2019 and we do deserve to have subtlety to be fun to play instead of subtlety being so depressing.