retail: subtlety rogues don't have any rep for class balancing.

[Morae]

I havent touched subtlety in a while. Is it still rigid spec that requires you to juggle buffs with little to no error allowed while pretending to be melee affliction warlock?

Rigidness is bad. Its only good, if you are allowed to perform uniterrupted. This doesnt generally happen.
Juggling buffs and other effects is bad. This for basically same reasons as above. Any interruption will disrupt the required mechanics.

ect.

Even, if you get some enjoyment from performing above stuff, you are a liability in group content. This makes the spec undesirable and will on average also result in lower performance. This while other classes that are flexible can perform in all situations with no problems.

Mechanically I always felt subtlety is terrible.

[Kaver]

Sounds like the only issue is your play if you're putting up bad numbers as sub.

It is actually top 2 for rogues for every mythic boss up until the last 3 that very few guilds have killed. Depending on the boss it outperforms either outlaw or assassination. It tops both for 2 bosses as well.

You need to look at top parses to see the dps potential of a spec.

[shoegazing]

I'd argue that by the end of Legion, it got back to it's former glory.

the DFA burst combo build was beautiful in how it was played, and it was enjoyable and satisfying as fuck.

but then blizzard took 10 steps back AGAIN. and ruined everything they did right.

DFA playstyle is not what Subtlety PvP needs. It needs traditional Rogue tools to be available class wide again, Shadowstrike and Shadowblades and Symbols of Death to be pruned, and go back to 1min CD Shadow Dance as the primary CD of the spec with no charges, no CDR, and full duration + full strength FW not this nerfed talent version that is balanced around too high Dance uptime.

The current design promotes mindless, one dimensional Cheap Shot and Shadowstrike spam, and everything about that playstyle is utter garbage. The animations are garbage, the sounds are garbage, the fantasy of it is garbage, the playstyle and mechanics of it are complete garbage, nothing about it even resembles a Rogue at all anymore, it's just garbage garbage garbage garbage.

What PvP Subtlety needs is the option, via talents or PvP talents or whatever system, to play Subtlety as it existed in WoD, with a playstyle that is oriented around setting up burst windows with Find Weakness through Dance, Vanish, or Restealth, and outside of those windows managing multiple timers in SnD/rupture, pooling energy and combo points for the next stun DR window + FW window, and being disruptive with the full plate of Rogue tools including Gouge, Shiv, Garrote, Crippling Poison, etc.

I mean, if you enjoy mindlessly spamming shadow dance with literally zero depth, that's your perogative, but I dont see how that's a good thing for either pvp or pve

Yup. It's complete and utter garbage. Shadow Dance should never be the core of "the rotation" when it's instead historically the most exciting and versatile cooldown in the entire history of WoW across any class and spec. Rotational Dance design doesn't make the rotation better, it makes Dance worse. I can see why they thought it was a good idea on paper to take such an awesome ability and make it more core to the rotation but it has completely failed in execution and resulted in a dumbed down and homogenized design that doesn't preserve the unique playstyle of the Subtlety Rogue but instead renders it another pointless and stupid vehicle for a damage rotation with little else.

[Kaver]

If you want to take a spec that was a PvP masterpiece spec for over a decade and drive PvP players away from it and design it for only PvE, that does make you a PvE pig and the lowest kind of scum.

I meant what I said and your garbage attitude towards other players deserves to be called out for what it is.

Subtlety, as it is currently designed, FAILS MASSIVELY at serving its PvP audience, who were playing the spec long before you were. It's not acceptable to prioritize Subtlety PvE over Subtlety PvP when Rogues already have 2 great PvE specs and PvP is Subtlety's traditional niche.

Designing specs based on PvP is a waste of money for Blizzard. Of course Subtle for PvE should be prioritized over Subtle for PvP since the target audience is much larger. Raiders and M+ players want 3 Rogue specs they can use and fortunately for us, we will most likely get that in the future. Happy days for the "PVE pigs"

[shoegazing]

Designing specs based on PvP is a waste of money for Blizzard. Of course Subtle for PvE should be prioritized over Subtle for PvP since the target audience is much larger. Raiders and M+ players want 3 Rogue specs they can use and fortunately for us, we will most likely get that in the future. Happy days for the "PVE pigs"

Raiders and M+ players already have other specs that are fun to play but there are currently ZERO Rogue specs that have a fun playstyle in PvP.

Designing every spec for the same audience is in no way a smart financial decision for Blizzard lmfao. When you have a pure dps class with 3 different specs, the smart thing to do is cover as many bases as possible so that people with different playstyles can find one that is a good fit for them.

P.S. If Blizzard is happy with the current design of Subtlety Rogue, then why is it currently tuned into the dirt so that nobody will play it?

[shaunika123]

DFA playstyle is not what Subtlety PvP needs. It needs traditional Rogue tools to be available class wide again, Shadowstrike and Shadowblades and Symbols of Death to be pruned, and go back to 1min CD Shadow Dance as the primary CD of the spec with no charges, no CDR, and full duration + full strength FW not this nerfed talent version that is balanced around too high Dance uptime.

The current design promotes mindless, one dimensional Cheap Shot and Shadowstrike spam, and everything about that playstyle is utter garbage. The animations are garbage, the sounds are garbage, the fantasy of it is garbage, the playstyle and mechanics of it are complete garbage, nothing about it even resembles a Rogue at all anymore, it's just garbage garbage garbage garbage.

What PvP Subtlety needs is the option, via talents or PvP talents or whatever system, to play Subtlety as it existed in WoD, with a playstyle that is oriented around setting up burst windows with Find Weakness through Dance, Vanish, or Restealth, and outside of those windows managing multiple timers in SnD/rupture, pooling energy and combo points for the next stun DR window + FW window, and being disruptive with the full plate of Rogue tools including Gouge, Shiv, Garrote, Crippling Poison, etc.



Yup. It's complete and utter garbage. Shadow Dance should never be the core of "the rotation" when it's instead historically the most exciting and versatile cooldown in the entire history of WoW across any class and spec. Rotational Dance design doesn't make the rotation better, it makes Dance worse. I can see why they thought it was a good idea on paper to take such an awesome ability and make it more core to the rotation but it has completely failed in execution and resulted in a dumbed down and homogenized design that doesn't preserve the unique playstyle of the Subtlety Rogue but instead renders it another pointless and stupid vehicle for a damage rotation with little else.

I'm talking strictly pve here.

and PVE wise, post 7.2 sub was fantastic, till 8.0 ruined it again.

I've given up on wow pvp long long ago, and I cant believe people are still masochistic enough to do it :/

I'm just waiting for classic TBC so I Can play with the best version of rogue again in good arenas

[Kaver]

Raiders and M+ players already have other specs that are fun to play but there are currently ZERO Rogue specs that have a fun playstyle in PvP.

PvP is not important. Get used to it mate

- - - Updated - - -

P.S. If Blizzard is happy with the current design of Subtlety Rogue, then why is it currently tuned into the dirt so that nobody will play it?

Subtlety is currently broken, but not because it is bad for PvP. Subtlety will be optimized for PVE content in the future. Get used to it mate

[froschhure]

i gotta admit, sub feels clunky in pve

[Varolyn]

Well, we don't know to what extent, but it appears they are un-pruning in Shadowlands. I guess we just have to wait and see what though.

[Naiattavain]

Well, we don't know to what extent, but it appears they are un-pruning in Shadowlands. I guess we just have to wait and see what though.

omg i got my fingers crossed.

[Russo]

I liked Sub past and I like Sub now, game is changing time is changing, I can agree with it needs to be buffed or change minor things but overall I love Sub right now, maybe they could buff it for Pve as well, because most of ppl prefer it for Pvp.

[Naiattavain]

Well, we don't know to what extent, but it appears they are un-pruning in Shadowlands. I guess we just have to wait and see what though.

agreed lets wait and see what blizzard changes; the class and spec. drum roll..

[Dizzeeyooo]

I'm just waiting for classic TBC so I Can play with the best version of x y z again in good arenas

You are not alone in that

[dcc626]

You are not alone in that

maybe in 2021.