Preach drops some unexpected and well-articulated truth bombs

[Doffen]

LOL do you remember how much fucking crying there was on these forums for arcway/court of stars attunes? hahahahahaha

Yeah. I loved it. And the attunement

[Lei]

It should be common sense that SOME work is required to do things. Raidlogging is probably just as bad as juicing out every drop of life from players before they get to enter to a mythic raid(ing guild). There should be something in the middle. (Like it was for the most part of the game up and with until mop)

[rohoz]

It should be common sense that SOME work is required to do things. Raidlogging is probably just as bad as juicing out every drop of life from players before they get to enter to a mythic raid(ing guild). There should be something in the middle. (Like it was for the most part of the game up and with until mop)

pre mop was raidlog central, wtf do you mean.

[Seranthor]

.

Bless your heart... Who let YOU decide what qualifies as 'fun' for people? Then there's the issue of being a shill for Preach, you might want to reconsider that life decision.

[Lei]

pre mop was raidlog central, wtf do you mean.

You should probably think a little bit before pushing that reply button.

Raidlogging means you absolutely don't want to do anything before you get to enter to a raid. This means no attunements, reputations (shoulder enchants, remember?) etc.
I remember back in WotLK people crying because they HAD to max out Sons of Hodir. I think SOME work is great, and totally justifiable. Some entanglement between pvp and pve, outdoor content and dungeons etc is great. But then compare anything up to and with mop and Legion and Bfa. Mythic raiding I'm talking about, in capable, healthy, long estabilished mythic guilds.

[Lucavian]

First he complains about how passive the azerite traits are and that they do nothing. Then he complains about systems being 'too complex'. Think he's just whining for clicks at this point unfortunately, though he does put out some good content sometimes. Drama time is best time.

[Cosmic Janitor]

First he complains about how passive the azerite traits are and that they do nothing. Then he complains about systems being 'too complex'. Think he's just whining for clicks at this point unfortunately, though he does put out some good content sometimes. Drama time is best time.

Most azerite traits are still passive, because they have no interaction with the user, they are just random procs. The "complex" part is that you need some simulation to tell which of these random proccs or percentage adjustments that don't require your input actually benefit you the most, because there is barely any way to find out on your own - and a week later it might be different again - and the difference between best and worst is gigantic.

[rohoz]

You should probably think a little bit before pushing that reply button.

Raidlogging means you absolutely don't want to do anything before you get to enter to a raid. This means no attunements, reputations (shoulder enchants, remember?) etc.
I remember back in WotLK people crying because they HAD to max out Sons of Hodir. I think SOME work is great, and totally justifiable. Some entanglement between pvp and pve, outdoor content and dungeons etc is great. But then compare anything up to and with mop and Legion and Bfa. Mythic raiding I'm talking about, in capable, healthy, long estabilished mythic guilds.

Yeah, you raidlogged pre mop.
You got rep for enchants (in cata) in like the first week of the expansion
In wotlk you did sons of hodir once in naxx tier and then raidlogged till the end of icc.

- - - Updated - - -

Most azerite traits are still passive, because they have no interaction with the user, they are just random procs. The "complex" part is that you need some simulation to tell which of these random proccs or percentage adjustments that don't require your input actually benefit you the most, because there is barely any way to find out on your own - and a week later it might be different again - and the difference between best and worst is gigantic.

You have no idea what azerite traits do, which isn't surprising.
Most of them are flat % modifiers to spells, or chance on spellcast to gain stats. Only the mostly bad zone traits (save undulating) are the random procs

[Lucavian]

Most azerite traits are still passive, because they have no interaction with the user, they are just random procs. The "complex" part is that you need some simulation to tell which of these random proccs or percentage adjustments that don't require your input actually benefit you the most, because there is barely any way to find out on your own - and a week later it might be different again - and the difference between best and worst is gigantic.

It still doesn't matter, it's a simplistic system. He's now complaining that the corruption item system is 'too complex'. There's very little middle ground that Blizzard can land on to please him at this rate. Passive traits that math out is too simple, corruption items that you remove the negative side from with a currency is on the other hand, too complex somehow?

[Lei]

Most azerite traits are still passive, because they have no interaction with the user, they are just random procs. The "complex" part is that you need some simulation to tell which of these random proccs or percentage adjustments that don't require your input actually benefit you the most, because there is barely any way to find out on your own - and a week later it might be different again - and the difference between best and worst is gigantic.

This is really intersting because originally (m+) you couldn't really target (your best) azerite pieces, so what you got was totally random. Having such a big pool from possible drops basically added some additional layers to rng, guess that was the very intention. But then people rioted so they became targetable, but with that, the original purpose of having 1010101010101012 type of azerite (your abilities have a hcance to shoot ponies/stars/eggplants/yoghurt amg so original and exciting! ... NOT) lost it's meaning and intention. Because who the fuck cares if it's eggplants, ponies, or stars. You pick the biggest number and be a bit sad that it's not the cool eggplant one.

You would think that game devs know that too many choices are almost as bad as no choice. It's basic psychology.

[matrix123mko]

I agree that BfA has too much grind but I play for the story so I am hyped anyway.

[Cosmic Janitor]

You have no idea what azerite traits do, which isn't surprising.
Most of them are flat % modifiers to spells, or chance on spellcast to gain stats. Only the mostly bad zone traits (save undulating) are the random procs

I literally wrote "these random proccs or percentage adjustments", not to mention a stat procc is also a .. proc.

[VooDsXo]

If they stop innovating and stop coming up with new things, people will say Blizzard has no new ideas and that the game only does the same thing over and over again and it's uncreative and unoriginal.

The question is what to innovate, at this point ascendant classes would've been a better game design than any form of warforge or titanforge gear.

[rohoz]

I literally wrote "these random proccs or percentage adjustments", not to mention a stat procc is also a .. proc.

The few proc azerite pieces are the ones that change your itemization, like dance of death.

You can apply that logic to every bonus in this game ever

[Cosmic Janitor]

This is really intersting because originally (m+) you couldn't really target (your best) azerite pieces, so what you got was totally random. Having such a big pool from possible drops basically added some additional layers to rng, guess that was the very intention. But then people rioted so they became targetable, but with that, the original purpose of having 1010101010101012 type of azerite (your abilities have a hcance to shoot ponies/stars/eggplants/yoghurt amg so original and exciting! ... NOT) lost it's meaning and intention. Because who the fuck cares if it's eggplants, ponies, or stars. You pick the biggest number and be a bit sad that it's not the cool eggplant one.

You would think that game devs know that too many choices are almost as bad as no choice. It's basic psychology.

The ability to target them was kind of a sham though (ignoring raiding drops here, since that isn't what people complaned about), yes you could buy the 7 times as expensive item - or what made more sense gamble for 2-3 of the pool of 6-8 items with the random token and actually use them before the patch is over and it becomes obsolete.

The system was flawed from the very beginning, and almost everyone that took a look at in beta could see that. It was by no means a substitute for the things we've lost - even with the talent perk overhauls. Then there was the issue with "having to re-earn your traits over and over again", which also wasn't exactly stellar from a psychological PoV. The system lacked (and still does) a sense of persistency, which is why the Essence system set out to remedy that. My personal issue with that is just that these are (extremly alt-unfriendly) grinds and the azerite system is still not completely fixed, just held together with bandages and patches while strapped with duct tape to the rest of the systems. Even with the latest iteration of not having to re-unlock higher level traits, you still have to fish for the traits you want for ages, even if they are old ones.

[rohoz]

The ability to target them was kind of a sham though (ignoring raiding drops here, since that isn't what people complaned about), yes you could buy the 7 times as expensive item - or what made more sense gamble for 2-3 of the pool of 6-8 items with the random token and actually use them before the patch is over and it becomes obsolete.

The system was flawed from the very beginning, and almost everyone that took a look at in beta could see that. It was by no means a substitute for the things we've lost - even with the talent perk overhauls. Then there was the issue with "having to re-earn your traits over and over again", which also wasn't exactly stellar from a psychological PoV. The system lacked (and still does) a sense of persistency, which is why the Essence system set out to remedy that. My personal issue with that is just that these are (extremly alt-unfriendly) grinds and the azerite system is still not completely fixed, just held together with bandages and patches while strapped with duct tape to the rest of the systems. Even with the latest iteration of not having to re-unlock higher level traits, you still have to fish for the traits you want for ages, even if they are old ones.

still 100% better than tier.

[hulkgor]

I've made a lot of posts this year about how the game is over-engineered. It's theory-crafting, spreadsheets and russian doll systems carried too far. There have been rumors that the next expansion may be a good entry point for new players so if true, I'm prepared for simpler to be equal to "dumbing down" and everyone else should be too. I think it's needed though.

I agree with you entirely, but i can already imagine all the whining and raging on forums if they 'dumb down' or simplify certain systems, or even remove others entirely.

[Relapses]

still 100% better than tier.

It's different. I wouldn't say better. There are Pros and Cons of both systems. Tier, imo, keeps things interesting between raid patches. Azerite, imo, helps the devs keep power creep more linear. I prefer the flavor Tier sets brought to the game. Azerite fills some of this niche but it seems needlessly complicated when compared to a collectable item set.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I agree with you entirely, but i can already imagine all the whining and raging on forums if they 'dumb down' or simplify certain systems, or even remove others entirely.

I think the whining and raging will depend on how Blizzard actually tackles it. Will it actually be a simple yet elegant solution, or will it be another "we are Blizzard, it needs our unique spin, we know best" solution.

[Kickbuttmario]

still 100% better than tier.

How on earth is a gambling system wherein which we earn a piece more or less every 2 weeks better than tier, which was easier to earn?