There's no choice in Covenants - they will be min-maxed anyway

[Masternap]

People will take the one with the mathematically best skills and that's it. I don't get why Blizzard thinks this gives choice to the players. It absolutely does not. Especially with this 'you can only choose one, so choose wisely' crap. This will only make me look up a guide on what's providing the best DPS/HPS/Utility.

Am I missing something here or is this system a really dumb idea?

[MasterOfNone]

yeah i agree. ive been wondering why people feel like that they have a choice when clearly certain things just flat sim better than others. thats not choice. maybe in SL there will be more unique balance between talents that will actually GIVE choice as opposed to the illusion that there really is one that they pushed so hard the past few expansions.

[Kathranis]

Is there literally anything in this game that can't be min-maxed? There will always be an option that sims better than other options in any situation.

What do you propose as a solution? Just removing all stats from the game but ilvl, eliminating choice entirely, only giving us cosmetic differences?


They said that they hope there will be enough systems baked into the Covenants (between the two abilities, perks, and soulbinds) that there won't be a distinct overall best option in all scenarios, and that the cost and difficulty of changing Covenants will prevent players from swapping on a per-content basis.

They said they want choosing a Covenant to be like choosing a class. Yes there are always classes who perform better at certain things, but players generally don't min-max to the degree of picking one class over another.

[Tantaburs]

They've said that covenants will be a large number of small choices rather than one big choice which makes it harder to pick a definitive answer.

Also unless you are a Hall of Fame guild it literally doesn't matter pick whichever one you want. If you are in a Hall of Fame guild you signed up for the whole Min/Max life

[Thetruth1400]

Am I missing something here or is this system a really dumb idea?

You're not, it's exactly as stupid a system as you think.

They've admitted you can switch covenants, but it's a commitment to do so. In other words, if you flex between roles at all and your best is on one covenant for DPS but it's your worst for your heal spec or vice versa, you're going to either accept being the best at one but worst at the other or pick a third covenant with two mediocre specs.

A horrible system, but about what I expect for Blizzard these days. They're so blind to actual player behavior.

[Mamercus]

Watching the deep dive now I can't help but think that I just have to choose whichever covenant Raidbots tells me to, which is unfortunate, because it means I won't get to pick the faction that has the most enjoyable fluff. There are also lots of specs in which certain abilities are obviously going to be wayyyy better than others, which means if I want to play multiple specs I might not be able to do so optimally given that a lot of these abilities are gigantic. Same thing goes for PvP.

The response could be "well then stop raiding Mythic" but for me I have very limited interest in the game outside of mythic raiding. This kind of system is fine for fluff players who are not competitive but it is an added headache for raiders.

As others have brought up it's an even crappier situation for swing healers and swing tanks. Why do this kind of thing pointlessly? It's only going to cause aggravation and whining until it is changed later on in response to the torrent of negative feedback. It's sad that I can't get excited about these kinds of things because I know it will just be an aggravation tax in order to play the game instead of a fun flavor choice.

[Masternap]

What do you propose as a solution? Just removing all stats from the game but ilvl, eliminating choice entirely, only giving us cosmetic differences?

No? I propose not having dps/healing skills. Those Covenant abilities that every class gets are perfect, as they are utility only. Furthermore your choice determines your hub, and the set and soulbinds you get. That's honestly more than enough and would actually give players choice.

As it stands now you basically have to handicap yourself intentionally if you want a Covenant that's different from the optimal one. That just sucks. And the other way around you might have to spend your time in a hub you dislike if you want to get the most out of your character.

I honestly have no idea why the active abilities need to be tied to Covenants. They should've just continued the Essence system, as it doesn't invalidate 75% of the other content.

[sensei]

Pro WoW players: I'm gonna research the shit out of the covenants
95% of WoW Players: Which one has the owl people?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

By this logic there should only be one class and three specs. There’s no choice in dps/tank/healer if every one min maxes and takes the best one. There’s also no choice in talents because you can min max them so take out all talents. Also take out the races because you can mix max those to.

We should all just be the same grey blob race with the game talents and class other wise it’s a dumb system because people min max.

[Djaye]

lol, this is just going to be
covenant x= best raid dps
covenant y= pvp
covenant z= best mystic dungeon/5man
etc.

just another cookie cutter system. they will figure it all out in beta.

locking abilities behind one choice faction decisions is the dumbest thing ive seen blizz do in awhile.
immediately turned me off to the whole direction of the expansion.

[Teriz]

LoL! Well it didn't take long for this to happen.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You're not, it's exactly as stupid a system as you think.

They've admitted you can switch covenants, but it's a commitment to do so. In other words, if you flex between roles at all and your best is on one covenant for DPS but it's your worst for your heal spec or vice versa, you're going to either accept being the best at one but worst at the other or pick a third covenant with two mediocre specs.

A horrible system, but about what I expect for Blizzard these days. They're so blind to actual player behavior.

They know player behaviour they know that most people don’t play high end and won’t sim the stuff as the majority never has.

[Skirdus]

People will take the one with the mathematically best skills and that's it.

Or they'll take the one with the aesthetic that appeals to them the most. I know that's all that matters to me.

Same goes for talents, class customization, soulbinds... pretty much everything involving player agency

[MasterOfNone]

Is there literally anything in this game that can't be min-maxed? There will always be an option that sims better than other options in any situation.

What do you propose as a solution? Just removing all stats from the game but ilvl, eliminating choice entirely, only giving us cosmetic differences?


They said that they hope there will be enough systems baked into the Covenants (between the two abilities, perks, and soulbinds) that there won't be a distinct overall best option in all scenarios, and that the cost and difficulty of changing Covenants will prevent players from swapping on a per-content basis.

They said they want choosing a Covenant to be like choosing a class. Yes there are always classes who perform better at certain things, but players generally don't min-max to the degree of picking one class over another.

depends on what you are talking about. there are SEVERAL people who pick one class over another. SPRIEST in BFA for example. they came out of the woordworkd once they knew that they were OP. propose a solution? why is it anyones job here to propose a solution for a game that we havent played or have a hand in designing? more to the point, to an entertainment source that WE pay for? the idea of giving choice means that there is a clear advantage to one choice over the other. you are saying performing at better things, and i get that. the reality is, that overall in BFA and other expansions, its flat b/s. regardless of how much talent a performs at absorbing damage, talent b will always be taken by dps to kill the boss faster. that is not unique game design and definately not a pve choice. pvp maybe. classes and specs are riddled with nonsense like this.

[Mamercus]

By this logic there should only be one class and three specs. There’s no choice in dps/tank/healer if every one min maxes and takes the best one. There’s also no choice in talents because you can min max them so take out all talents. Also take out the races because you can mix max those to.

We should all just be the same grey blob race with the game talents and class other wise it’s a dumb system because people min max.

That's not true. There are lots of situational talents. There are many classes that have niche utility that are great for certain encounters. There are some classes that are OP overall for a raid tier or a whole expansion or several but as bosses get nerfed it tends to get fine and WoW has had better balance in general than most other RPGs and MMOs.

This is a situation in which your character gets soft locked into a covenant which is always going to be significantly mathematically superior for a certain niche within a certain spec and not others. The gaps if the example abilities stay the same are massive, probably to the point to a 5%+ damage gap. Guilds will expect you to pick the covenant that amplifies you niche the most, and swing healers and swing tanks will just have to suck it up or grind out covenant changes every week or whatever.

No it doesn't matter as much for the people who are playing on the chill difficulties. But this aggravation in this system is just pointless and hopefully it will be changed but judging from the lack of change in BFA from alpha until the massive negative feedback from the launch being hopeful about this would be unwise.

[Prokne]

The first thing I thought when I heard about this system was "which is the best one for my class?" and then "I hope it's with a faction I like." But I would take the best one no matter which faction had it.

[Time Sage]

Maybe people should just play the way that's most fun instead of going for the biggest numbers? I mean I'm pretty sure that's how the silent majority play?

[Tantaburs]

The first thing I thought when I heard about this system was "which is the best one for my class?" and then "I hope it's with a faction I like." But I would take the best one no matter which faction had it.

What percent better is your threshold for picking one. If they are all within 1-2% of each other than its honestly a non issue

[WinningOne]

People will take the one with the mathematically best skills and that's it. I don't get why Blizzard thinks this gives choice to the players. It absolutely does not. Especially with this 'you can only choose one, so choose wisely' crap. This will only make me look up a guide on what's providing the best DPS/HPS/Utility.

Am I missing something here or is this system a really dumb idea?

If you step away from the min/max trap you'll realize the options are fine for whatever content you want to do. If you prefer to min/max things then every choice you ever make will be made for you so I'm not sure why you would be complaining about this one specifically. It's one of the drawbacks to demanding maximum output. I guess you'll have to decide what your priorities are for your gameplay.

[Raven]

People will take the one with the mathematically best skills and that's it. I don't get why Blizzard thinks this gives choice to the players. It absolutely does not. Especially with this 'you can only choose one, so choose wisely' crap. This will only make me look up a guide on what's providing the best DPS/HPS/Utility.

Am I missing something here or is this system a really dumb idea?

what ever they add there will always be a best option, so the only solution is too not add anything, does that sound better.