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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    You would be right... if "path of least resistance" wasn't a thing, which it is.
    Free will is also a thing. Which you apparently lack.

  2. #222
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    I disagree. There is no further discussion possible as long as you keep ignoring "the path of least resistance" game design concept.
    And I find no credence in the "it's intentionally worse because it builds character" approach to gameplay design.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  3. #223
    Add climbing to the game and gate flying until the next content patch for every new zone.

  4. #224
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    You sound like eployers who try to justify crunch periods on projects. "They CHOOSE to work those extra hours".
    Honestly, I really have no idea what you're trying to communicate here.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  5. #225
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelinrah View Post
    Free will is also a thing. Which you apparently lack.
    Now imagine joining a TF2 server, it happens that it's the only server left in the whole world, it has two tickboxes before you pick a character:
    aimbot
    wallhack
    You are presented with a CHOICE of using those cheats right before you start, you have an OPTION to use them according to your logic.
    But in reality, after you tick off those boxes you get loaded into a game where everyone uses those cheats, and it's not a fun game to play. Then when you try to talk about it and explain the situation you get jumped upon by people who keep parroting "IT'S AN OPTION LOL DON'T USE IT", deliberately or not, but completely missing the point

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Honestly, I really have no idea what you're trying to communicate here.
    I know that you have no idea why flying is detrimental for the game, we've established that a long time ago
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  6. #226
    I think Pathfinder Rank 1 is enough (without any rep nonsense).

    For BfA, it would have been completing the stories in the three zones of your island, and exploring the three maps, then doing the same on the opposing island. That would have unlocked flight on Kul Tiras and Zandalar. When Nazjatar and Mechagon released, those could have had their own Pathfinder Rank 2 to unlock flight on them.

    It's not rocket surgery. Blizzard should be able to figure this out. We play through the stuff ONE time, which was enjoyable enough for me on a ground mount. After that, let me FLY for the stupid WQs and for my alts. Blizzard basically wasted an entire year for me on my alts because I didn't log on with a single one of them until I unlocked flight.

  7. #227
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarba View Post
    Add climbing to the game and gate flying until the next content patch for every new zone.
    Which would be a sensible resolution to a problem, you get this limited form of vertical movement to traverse locations, instead of ridiculous form of current flying
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  8. #228
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    N
    I know that you have no idea why flying is detrimental for the game, we've established that a long time ago
    Because it's not.

    Literally no complaint about flying doesn't boil down to "I don't like it that other people can..."


    To which I repeatedly answer... mind your own damn business.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  9. #229
    Choosing to not fly when it's available happens as often as raids that disabled the 30% ICC buff in their raid.

    After all, it was "optional"

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Now imagine joining a TF2 server, it happens that it's the only server left in the whole world, it has two tickboxes before you pick a character:
    aimbot
    wallhack
    You are presented with a CHOICE of using those cheats right before you start, you have an OPTION to use them according to your logic.
    But in reality, after you tick off those boxes you get loaded into a game where everyone uses those cheats, and it's not a fun game to play. Then when you try to talk about it and explain the situation you get jumped upon by people who keep parroting "IT'S AN OPTION LOL DON'T USE IT", deliberately or not, but completely missing the point
    Yeah, this is a retarded analogy.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Honestly, I really have no idea what you're trying to communicate here.
    He's saying its an illusion of choice. Basically.
    Khadgar: Prepare to heroically CTRL-E through the portal with me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooky View Post
    yeah wow cool..how about raising the valor cap consider WoD isn't that far away? 1000 valor points gets u a lollipop and kick in the nutsack these days! Back in my day we could get a bucket of candy and a pet ferret with that sort of points!
    Quote Originally Posted by Herecius View Post
    QUICKLY FRIENDS, TO THE HYPERBOLEMOBILE!

  12. #232
    I mean, I definitely was the most active in expansions that had flying from the start. Once pathfinder was introduced, I saw it as more of a chore than interesting and interactive gameplay. Still, I've gone through all 3 pathfinder grinds so far, and I can honestly say that once I got flying, I pretty much lost interest in the expansion because pathfinder was the only real long term goal any of them had. That's not an issue caused by flying, that's an issue caused by a lack of compelling end game world content.

    Let's be honest anyway, who actually stops to fight things that they pull while running? I just run right through them. You can say that flying causes people to interact less with the world, and that developers restricting it is an attempt to get people to engage more with it, but honestly, it just makes me skip everything I can until I can fly, and then I start to actually explore and interact more.

  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Literally no complaint about flying doesn't boil down to "I don't like it that other people can..."
    I mean, if you like to think about it this way - good for you, but you should consider moving away from those discussions if you are not willing to understand the issues with flying. Here's one thing to think about - developers release and design content around the way and speed of how players consume it, with rapid-flying available, developers have to make rewards smaller, thanks to how fast you can consume world-content due to being able to fly with 310% speed, so literally anyone who doesn't use 310% speed flying gets the same rewards for more effort and more time. Without 310% speed flying developers would have to tune their rewards up, because nobody in their right damn mind would want to spend time to travel to a WQ 15 minutes away from a closest flight point to get 20 gold.

    Flying is not "just an option" in this game, it's a mechanic (and the most boring implementation of flying in videogames, even flappy bird has better flying that wow does) that you have to use if you want to get anything done in this game, denying that is just ridiculous;
    Liking it or not is completely different thing - i don't like it and want it to be removed, you like it and want it to stay, but saying ridiculous things like "flying is optional and doesn't affect the game" is just stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    Indeed - that's why Classic is so popular, because of flying.

    No - Blizzard needs to DITCH flying completely, or at worst make it for old content only.

    Then they need to make the ground more interesting.

    Problems need to be solved, not avoided OP.
    Or they can embrace it like in Tbc, WotLK and create even entire zone, factions, new daily areas, dungeons even that are not accessible without using flying mount. Like they already done. You know, before the "fuck the player fun" part of their design.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Nelinrah View Post
    The main reason for restricting flying is so that it takes longer to do things which helps Blizzard's shareholder meetings with the "Player Engagement" metric.
    I never really understood people who have this thought.

    People don't sub for an extra month because they have to spend 30 minutes extra each day to do their daily quests, or spend 5 minutes longer to get to the raid instance. They sub an extra month because there is shit to do ingame, i.e pathfinder.
    Pathfinder is amazing. It's a long achievement with a huge price at the end. It's actually what people have been asking for for a long time - something to aim towards. Not all the titanforge endless grind crap.

    Take Classic as an example, people play it a shit ton to farm pre-bis raiding gear. They know exactly what dungeon to go to, and who drops their item. There is no lottery at the end "will this finally titanforge and/or give me a socket this time!".
    People love goals. Pathfinder is the best goal in retail at the moment for almost the whole playerbase.
    Quote Originally Posted by atenime45 View Post
    The 10% reward. It's was unspoken rule that you DONT attack other faction so everyone could enjoy the 10% reward. But now no one cares about that anymore

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Here's one thing to think about - developers release and design content around the way and speed of how players consume it, with rapid-flying available, developers have to make rewards smaller, thanks to how fast you can consume world-content due to being able to fly with 310% speed, so literally anyone who doesn't use 310% speed flying gets the same rewards for more effort and more time.
    I can see your point, but world quest and daily quest rewards were shit long before pathfinder became a thing, and they continue to be shit to this day, often not being worth the time and effort to go do them.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Exystredofar View Post
    I mean, I definitely was the most active in expansions that had flying from the start. Once pathfinder was introduced, I saw it as more of a chore than interesting and interactive gameplay. Still, I've gone through all 3 pathfinder grinds so far, and I can honestly say that once I got flying, I pretty much lost interest in the expansion because pathfinder was the only real long term goal any of them had. That's not an issue caused by flying, that's an issue caused by a lack of compelling end game world content.

    Let's be honest anyway, who actually stops to fight things that they pull while running? I just run right through them. You can say that flying causes people to interact less with the world, and that developers restricting it is an attempt to get people to engage more with it, but honestly, it just makes me skip everything I can until I can fly, and then I start to actually explore and interact more.
    All the more reason why gating flying is ridiculous. That seems to be the general consensus among fans, but I don’t think Blizzard is willing to budge on this pet issue of theirs.

  18. #238
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exystredofar View Post
    I mean, I definitely was the most active in expansions that had flying from the start. Once pathfinder was introduced, I saw it as more of a chore than interesting and interactive gameplay. Still, I've gone through all 3 pathfinder grinds so far, and I can honestly say that once I got flying, I pretty much lost interest in the expansion because pathfinder was the only real long term goal any of them had. That's not an issue caused by flying, that's an issue caused by a lack of compelling end game world content.
    Well, with no flying developers would have more freedom to make world content, because it would be munched through like by a cloud of cicadas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exystredofar View Post
    Let's be honest anyway, who actually stops to fight things that they pull while running? I just run right through them. You can say that flying causes people to interact less with the world, and that developers restricting it is an attempt to get people to engage more with it, but honestly, it just makes me skip everything I can until I can fly, and then I start to actually explore and interact more.
    Running through is always dicy unless you playing a tank spec; You have options to improve your chances, like certain azerite perks that give you a shield, class abilities and stuff like that, but it still doesn't give you a guarantee to avoid dismount + daze. You also have an option to look for a shortest path, maybe risk taking some fall damage. Running through a location on ground mount makes you engage with the game, instead of avoiding literally anything by flying upwards.
    We don't know at this point how the game could look like without flying, because flying is always a concern in wow, developers have to consider how much faster it makes us, players, and how it impact our completion speeds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Well, with no flying developers would have more freedom to make world content, because it would be munched through like by a cloud of cicadas.
    WoD says this is bullshit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    We don't know at this point how the game could look like without flying, because flying is always a concern in wow, developers have to consider how much faster it makes us, players, and how it impact our completion speeds.
    It would look like WoD, which sucked.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    I mean, if you like to think about it this way - good for you, but you should consider moving away from those discussions if you are not willing to understand the issues with flying. Here's one thing to think about - developers release and design content around the way and speed of how players consume it, with rapid-flying available, developers have to make rewards smaller, thanks to how fast you can consume world-content due to being able to fly with 310% speed, so literally anyone who doesn't use 310% speed flying gets the same rewards for more effort and more time. Without 310% speed flying developers would have to tune their rewards up, because nobody in their right damn mind would want to spend time to travel to a WQ 15 minutes away from a closest flight point to get 20 gold.

    Flying is not "just an option" in this game, it's a mechanic (and the most boring implementation of flying in videogames, even flappy bird has better flying that wow does) that you have to use if you want to get anything done in this game, denying that is just ridiculous;
    Liking it or not is completely different thing - i don't like it and want it to be removed, you like it and want it to stay, but saying ridiculous things like "flying is optional and doesn't affect the game" is just stupid.
    But it is optional. You can choose not to do this but you wont because the optimization thingy.

    And sure, devs are so inclined with the time, especially when "player time spend playing" that they gona stretch is as much as humanly possible and then some. They also know this is fucked up and created flight master whistles, the fucking aviana feather in wod because IT IS TEDIOUS AND THEY KNOW IT. They create a problem and then solution or a little workaround of said problem.

    Also, they dont have problem with player flying and saving some time for the players. They created pathfinder (again, problem and solution) so you can earn after you spend x times doing quests. You dont need to engage with other players. You need to spend x amount of time doing quests. And after that i suppose they are cool with you not engaging in their precious design

    That same filosophy can be seen in prices in realm transfer. They are high to discourage abuse of it. Unless you pay us. Then it is ok to abuse it. Because we love money

    They are so full of bullshit it is amazing, they create entire systems to stretch the "player engagement", (time gating like fucking EVERYWHERE now) and people still defend them because they swallow those stupid PR talks. And they do that in this way because they can, because it is easier and generate therefore more money, even IF in long stretch creating experience the players WANT to engage in because it is FUN and not because the rewards and qol are hidden behinds MONTHS of grinding would give them more money and better player retention.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Well, with no flying developers would have more freedom to make world content, because it would be munched through like by a cloud of cicadas.



    Running through is always dicy unless you playing a tank spec; You have options to improve your chances, like certain azerite perks that give you a shield, class abilities and stuff like that, but it still doesn't give you a guarantee to avoid dismount + daze. You also have an option to look for a shortest path, maybe risk taking some fall damage. Running through a location on ground mount makes you engage with the game, instead of avoiding literally anything by flying upwards.
    We don't know at this point how the game could look like without flying, because flying is always a concern in wow, developers have to consider how much faster it makes us, players, and how it impact our completion speeds.
    Or buy shitty item created by leatherworkes which prevent dismount...

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