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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Temp1on2 View Post
    Yet another example of cognitive dissonance:
    Crash and burn #3 for you. You're on a roll.

    "Possession" is literally the entity entering your body, wearing your body, and controlling it as their own. Your mind is "kicked off the driver's seat", so to speak, as the entity takes full, direct control of your body.

    "Mind control" is when the entity guides your thoughts and actions, telling you what to think and do. Your mind is still "in control" of your body, it still has "agency", but manipulated by an outside agent.

    The closest and simplest analogy I can think of to finally get you to understand simple concepts is this: "possession" is akin to a person wearing a costume, your body being the costume; and "mind-control" is akin to a puppeteer guiding a marionette, your body being the marionette.

    If you can't understand simple concepts (or refuse to) and instead insist on throwing big words in an attempt to sound smart, this will be my last reply to you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    "You lied to your men, betrayed the mercenaries who fought for you, whats happening to you Arthas? Is Vengeance all that important to you."


    Arthas was already unstable before Frostmourne. He was willing to be dishonest and screw over some of his own soldiers to get the job done. He wasn't willing to face the consequences of his actions and return home. He cared more about going after Mal'ganis and FYI Frostmourne didn't really kill Mal'ganis as we all learned. Also we know in that same campaign Arthas was sorta hot headed b4 the dead came in.


    "Then we should get in there AND DESTROY THE BEASTS!"

    "Calm yourself Prince Arthas, /Paladinspeech


    I like Arthas but I'm not justifying his actions.
    Oh, he was definitely arrogant and brash, but he wasn't evil. Mal'Ganis knew that, and capitalized on Arthas' weakness, making him fail again and again to protect his people, to again and again fail his duty as a paladin, to wound his pride and force him into the state of mind that would make him pick up Frostmourne without a second thought. That was Mal'Ganis' plan all along.
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  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Temp1on2 View Post
    All the people in stratholme were not infected.
    Seconded. Not to mention, contrary to popular belief, some people actually survived Arthas & Mal'ganis' rampage in Stratholme. Many followed Jaina to Kalimdor, others followed Uther, and some departed for Stormwind.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lilithvia View Post
    this entire discussion must be purged
    How can you even consider that? There's got to be some other way!
    "You will become my force of retribution. Where you tread, doom will follow. Go now, and claim your destiny, Death Knight."

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    "Possession" is literally the entity entering your body, wearing your body, and controlling it as their own. Your mind is "kicked off the driver's seat", so to speak, as the entity takes full, direct control of your body.
    And what does that entity do once its inside the host?

    Oh that's right control the person's actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    What you're doing is akin to blaming someone who was mind-controlled for the actions they were forced to take while under someone else's control.
    In case you can't see what the key word here is:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    akin to
    Possession is akin to mind control. The result is the same (if anything mind control is more absolute than possession), the individual being mind controlled/possessed has no control over their actions therefore not being responsible for said actions. Which is the entire point of your post that I'm quoting - you can't talk about LK arthas' actions because he was under the control of something else - which he wasn't.

    So for you to act like you:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    don't know why this keeps being repeated against me despite me never making that argument.
    Is either a lie, or ignorant of what you've already said. Both aren't becoming of someone saying other people are "crashing and burning".

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    "Mind control" is when the entity guides your thoughts and actions, telling you what to think and do. Your mind is still "in control" of your body, it still has "agency", but manipulated by an outside agent.
    No. if you are mind controlled you have absolutely no agency whatsoever. Apart from the universally accepted meaning of mind control you need only look at the priest spell mind control.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The closest and simplest analogy I can think of to finally get you to understand simple concepts is this: "possession" is akin to a person wearing a costume, your body being the costume; and "mind-control" is akin to a puppeteer guiding a marionette, your body being the marionette.
    Don't use analogies, you've already failed several times already.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    If you can't understand simple concepts (or refuse to) and instead insist on throwing big words in an attempt to sound smart, this will be my last reply to you.
    We're still waiting for you to explain:

    • If Sargeras were to kill uninfected children to stop a disease - evil according to you.
    • Arthas actually kills uninfected children to stop a disease - not evil according to you.

    All these posts and not a single explanation. Can't be that simple otherwise you'd have done it by now.
    Last edited by Temp1on2; 2019-11-29 at 03:55 PM.

  4. #284
    WC3 Megathreader Lilithvia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WanderingWarrior View Post

    How can you even consider that? There's got to be some other way!
    Damnit WanderingWarrior! As your future admin of these forums, I order you to purge this thread!

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilithvia View Post
    Damnit WanderingWarrior! As your future admin of these forums, I order you to purge this thread!
    You are not my admin yet, boi. Nor would I obey that command if you were!
    "You will become my force of retribution. Where you tread, doom will follow. Go now, and claim your destiny, Death Knight."

  6. #286
    WC3 Megathreader Lilithvia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WanderingWarrior View Post
    You are not my admin yet, boi. Nor would I obey that command if you were!
    Then I must consider this to be an infraction for major trolling.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilithvia View Post
    Then I must consider this to be an infraction for major trolling.
    Infraction? Have you lost your mind Lilithvia?
    "You will become my force of retribution. Where you tread, doom will follow. Go now, and claim your destiny, Death Knight."

  8. #288
    Not to play Devil's advocate here.


    But just because Arthas said "he wanted to save his people" doesn't mean it's the truth. He was in the presence of Muradin, someone who he still had some form of affinity with up until he held the Frostmourne. Also who, is "his people"? It's simply assumed that he's referring to all of his Kingdom but it could be a select few. And this behaviour isn't a first time, he totally murdered his own Kingdom's troops whom are still "his people". It's not just civilians who are...
    I dunno about you, but that does not scream in it "for your people" when you start to be selective on who people live or die and forget that your Kingdom's people extends to everyone... Not just civilians. Which I think is the one people default to. Just the civilians. If he really was in it for "his people" that would include those soldiers that didn't belong in Northrend and would all return home. Alive...

    Actions speak louder than words.



    To better illustrate my point. I could say to everyone here I'm an author with a award-winning book, or I can say I have a long career in Illustration. Do you know which is true or false?
    I do, you don't. My actions dictate one is my job, the other is simply words.
    Last edited by Evangeliste; 2019-11-29 at 05:57 PM.

  9. #289
    WC3 Megathreader Lilithvia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WanderingWarrior View Post
    Infraction? Have you lost your mind Lilithvia?
    Have I? By my right of OP of the WC3 megathread and future admin, I hereby relieve you from your posting privileges and suspend your ability to send private messages.

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilithvia View Post
    Have I? By my right of OP of the WC3 megathread and future admin, I hereby relieve you from your posting privileges and suspend your ability to send private messages.
    You just crossed a terrible threshold, Lilithvia.
    "You will become my force of retribution. Where you tread, doom will follow. Go now, and claim your destiny, Death Knight."

  11. #291
    WC3 Megathreader Lilithvia's Avatar
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    We should get back onto topic here (and screenshot this convo) before we get infracted.

  12. #292
    Worth it though.
    "You will become my force of retribution. Where you tread, doom will follow. Go now, and claim your destiny, Death Knight."

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Evangeliste View Post
    Not to play Devil's advocate here.


    But just because Arthas said "he wanted to save his people" doesn't mean it's the truth. He was in the presence of Muradin, someone who he still had some form of affinity with up until he held the Forstmourne. Also who, is "his people"? It's simply assumed that he's refering to all of his Kingdom but... Arthas doesn't seem very considerate of them all. Even as a Prince, it doesn't really seem in it "for his people" when he totally murdered his own Kingdom's troops.
    I dunno about you, but that does not scream in it "for your people" when you start to be selective on who people live or die and forget that your Kingdom's people extends to everyone... Not just civilians. Which I think is the one people default to. Just the civilians. If he really was in it for "his people" that would include those soldiers that didn't belong in Northrend and would all return home. Alive...

    Actions speak louder than words.



    To better illustrate my point. I could say to everyone here I'm an author with a award-winning book, or I can say I have a long career in Illustration. Do you know which is true or false?
    I do, you don't. My actions dictate one is my job, the other is simply words.
    This is also a good point. But Ielenia doesn't agree with you, they already said this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I think you would consider "evil" if your government decided to kill all babies and young toddlers in your country just so they wouldn't end up contracting measles.
    Which is exactly what Arthas, as the representative of the government of stratholme (he's the Prince), did. Mysteriously Ielenia can't explain why this doesn't apply to arthas though

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Temp1on2 View Post
    And what does that entity do once its inside the host?

    Oh that's right control the person's actions.
    They don't control the person's actions. It's the entity's own actions.

    Is either a lie, or ignorant of what you've already said. Both aren't becoming of someone saying other people are "crashing and burning".
    It's neither. It's the truth. I never made that claim.

    Don't use analogies, you've already failed several times already.
    Not my fault if you lack the brain cells or the desire to understand them.

    We're still waiting for you to explain:

    • If Sargeras were to kill uninfected children to stop a disease - evil according to you.
    • Arthas actually kills uninfected children to stop a disease - not evil according to you.

    All these posts and not a single explanation. Can't be that simple otherwise you'd have done it by now.
    Perhaps if you read and used your brain a little you'd have realized the answer has been given many, many posts ago. More than once, too. I'll say this one more time, even though I know you'll ignore this and continue to claim your question that has been answered multiple times has not been answered:

    Hospital A declares a spread of measles on the babies in their care.
    • Arthas kills all the children in hospital A to stop the disease from spreading, sparing the children from other hospitals.
    • Sargeras kills all the children in hospital A to stop the disease, as well as all children in hospital B, hospital C, hospital D... all the way to hospital ∞, even if the only hospital to ever show signs of measles was hospital A.
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  15. #295
    Banned Trassk's Avatar
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    Here's the thing. ALL dead mortal characters are in the shadowlands

    However, blizzard in their forever disappointing and lackluster way will only show us a few well known characters in the shadowlands, including those in the maw.

    The excuse why we don't see all dead characters, and their is a LOT of them, is because blizzard doesn't have the resources and time to show us them all, and will come out with a half arsed excuse later on saying "Yes so-and-so is in the shadowlands but they are situated in one of the infinite realms within the shadowlands you haven't been able to visit", because just like all other lore it's easier to half arse it and make excuses later.
    Or better yet, have christie golden write a short story with them as cameos, oh yay
    Last edited by Trassk; 2019-11-29 at 09:51 PM.

  16. #296
    If Illidan was redeemable than I don't see any problems with Arthas, tho, I hope his story is over, I don't want him to get butcher, I fell his end was good for blizzard standards

  17. #297
    Simply they now can ressurect any of old warcraft icons like Arthas or Archimonde and bring them back to world a the end of shadowlands. I bet shadowlands will be closed at the end of expansion and some good and bad souls will come back to real worlds :P

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    They don't control the person's actions. It's the entity's own actions.
    Here you go again with the semantics. You're literally splitting hairs in order to argue over something we both already agree on.

    Clearly when I say "their actions" I meant the actions of their bodies. Bottom line they aren't responsible if they are mind controlled or possesed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It's neither. It's the truth. I never made that claim.
    Yes, you did. I've quoted it for you, but happy to do it again:

    Your problem:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    don't know why this keeps being repeated against me despite me never making that argument.
    The reason:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    What you're doing is akin to blaming someone who was mind-controlled for the actions they were forced to take while under someone else's control.
    In case you can't see what the key word here is:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    akin to
    Possession is akin to mind control. The result is the same (if anything mind control is more absolute than possession), the individual being mind controlled/possessed has no control over their actions (of their body) therefore not being responsible for said actions. Which is the entire point of your post that I'm quoting - you can't talk about LK arthas' actions because he was under the control of something else - which he wasn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Not my fault if you lack the brain cells or the desire to understand them.
    I wouldn't talk about someone else's brain cells when you can't even read your own words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Hospital A declares a spread of measles on the babies in their care.
    • Arthas kills all the children in hospital A to stop the disease from spreading, sparing the children from other hospitals.
    • Sargeras kills all the children in hospital A to stop the disease, as well as all children in hospital B, hospital C, hospital D... all the way to hospital ∞
    WOW!!! We have made some progress!

    Great! So now answer what is the difference between example 1 and example 2? The answer is that only a single hospital is in example 1 and there are 4 hospitals in example 2. Therefore the difference between the two examples is the number of hospitals (3) - or to use a different term scale. Which is what I said originally was the difference between Sargeras and Arthas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    even if the only hospital to ever show signs of measles was hospital A.
    That's not true though is it, the void has been found throughout the universe, not just on one planet - as far as sargeras is aware (and he's not wrong) the void has already infected the entire universe (certainly everywhere we've been).
    Last edited by Temp1on2; 2019-11-29 at 10:15 PM.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    False. Mortal life isn't the 'hand'. It's the whole 'body', here.


    snip--

    Arthas is not bad because he was protecting mankind from being eradicated by a plague by killing a city that was wholly infected with said plague.
    Sargeras is bad because he wanted to fight the void lords by eradicating all life in the cosmos.

    Context matters.
    he is 5 year old his brain cant understand context

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Temp1on2 View Post
    This is also a good point. But Ielenia doesn't agree with you, they already said this:



    Which is exactly what Arthas, as the representative of the government of stratholme (he's the Prince), did. Mysteriously Ielenia can't explain why this doesn't apply to arthas though
    All I can say is shrug. There is always this zoomed in focus of one event - the Culling of Stratholme as some person defining moment when it should be the entirety of their life. The other events are not irrelevant. A person isn't and should never be judged by one action alone, but several.

    His journey was not of a hero. Or even as an anti-hero like Illidan.

    He, much like Sylvanas followed the path into the deep, dark woods of villainy. With every step being with a choice to actually stop and not commit atrocity after atrocity. Illidan did similar actions and actually can be akin to individuals like Arthas and Sylvanas as he was part of the Burning Legion machine and does share his body with a Demon, at one point a Titan too but the biggest thing is he broke away.
    If he was that power hungry he would have accepted Sargeras joining him in his body, it's a big upgrade from a Demon.

    But the element of mind control, sharing a body are not some acceptable reasons for inexcusable actions of murdering innocents. Not within the context of the lore and franchise when you have clearly defined examples and changes to compare.
    Sylvanas broke free from Arthas, Illidan shares his body with a Demon, two things that occurred and were originally beneficial things for the greater good.



    What is sinister is their actual motive, both Arthas and Sylvanas share(d) the desire to eradicate all life for the sake of ending it all.
    There is no grand gesture to save the world for the greater good like Illidan.

    It was simply to destroy.
    Last edited by Evangeliste; 2019-11-30 at 12:41 PM.

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