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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Ianus View Post
    he is 5 year old his brain cant understand context
    What is this context you're talking about? Do explain. All the person you quoted has said is "arthas was trying to protect the rest of humanity", to which the reply is "Sargeras was trying to protect the universe"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evangeliste View Post
    All I can say is shrug. There is always this zoomed in focus of one event - the Culling of Stratholme as some person defining moment when it should be the entirety of their life. The other events are not irrelevant. A person isn't and should never be judged by one action alone, but several.
    The point is:

    You cannot say X action is objectively evil , but its not evil when Y person does it. That is logically inconsistent.

    Furthermore, you cannot then give the example that exactly describes what Y person does, then not explain why that doesn't apply to person Y.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evangeliste View Post
    What is sinister is their actual motive, they both shared the desire to eradicate all life for the sake of ending it all.
    But this isn't true. Sargeras didn't want to eradicate all life "for the sake of ending it all".

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Temp1on2 View Post
    What is this context you're talking about? Do explain. All the person you quoted has said is "arthas was trying to protect the rest of humanity", to which the reply is "Sargeras was trying to protect the universe"

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    The point is:

    You cannot say X action is objectively evil , but its not evil when Y person does it. That is logically inconsistent.

    Furthermore, you cannot then give the example that exactly describes what Y person does, then not explain why that doesn't apply to person Y.



    But this isn't true. Sargeras didn't want to eradicate all life "for the sake of ending it all".
    I didn't say Sargeras was part of that explanation though sweetheart - please read carefully as it says "both" not "all" which would include more individuals but I focused on Arthas, Sylvanas and Illidan and part of the sentence focused on both Arthas and Sylvanas. I also am not part of your intent on proving whose good and bad.
    Sargeras is a baddie to me as much as Arthas. The intention is not honourable in the slightest just like Arthas. So don't put words into my posts.


    The fact is, you have relevance in lore where things like breaking from mind control like Sylvanas from Arthas, or sharing your body like Illidan with a Demon are not reasons to excuse heinous actions because one such character didn't happen to follow suit.

    All 3 individuals, Arthas, Sylvanas and Illidan are I would say on similar grounds of power and prowess not to mention overlap in features such as sharing a body, mind control, etc. Hence why I focused on them independently and not Sargeras, I identified Burning Legion as a unit, not specifics.

    Besides that, Arthas killed his people as a living and supposedly sane person but that doesn't appear to be of sound mind when you are selective in who lives and dies, especially when it comes to people. He murdered his Kingdom's troops. The very people who are meant to directly serve him and died by his malice intention.
    His people are not only civilians inside Stratholme, they are everyone.
    Last edited by Evangeliste; 2019-11-30 at 12:51 PM.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Evangeliste View Post
    I didn't say Sargeras was part of that explanation though sweetheart - please read carefully. I also am not part of your intent on proving whose good and bad.
    Sargeras is a baddie to me as much as Arthas. The intention is not honourable in the slightest just like Arthas. So don't put words into my posts.


    The fact is, you have relevance in lore where things like breaking from mind control like Sylvanas from Arthas, or sharing your body like Illidan with a Demon are not reasons to excuse heinous actions because one such character didn't happen to follow suit.

    All 3 individuals, Arthas, Sylvanas and Illidan are I would say on similar grounds of power and prowess. Hence why I focused on them independently and not Sargeras, I dentified Burning Legion as a unit, not specifics.

    Besides that, Arthas killed his people as a living and supposedly sane person but that doesn't appear to be of sound mind when you are selective in who lives and dies, especially when it comes to people. He murdered his Kingdom's troops. The very people who are meant to directly serve him and died by his malice intention.
    His people are not only civilians inside Stratholme, they are everyone.
    You've completely missed the point of what I've been trying to say.

    I am not debating who is good or evil.

    I'm saying if you're going to label Arthas "innocent" or "good" based on his "greater good" rationale (killing innocents to save something precious) then the same standard applie to Sargeras.

    I personally think that Arthas was bad, as I personally think Sargeras was bad. But I'm not arguing who is or isn't bad, merely that their actions are so similar (differing only on scale, i.e. cities instead of worlds) that if one is bad so is the other, equally if one is good so is the other. The person i've been debating with is trying to say what arthas did wasn't bad and entirely justified but what sargeras did is bad and not justified - with no good or logical explanation.

  4. #304
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    This thread needs to settle down. Make your arguments without sniping or ad hominem attacks at other users. Conduct yourselves civilly and post constructively.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
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  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    oh right, 3 in a row now...i did know about legion but got the count messed up.

    This is really ridiculous....

    would have used Kel to either try to get into the shadowlands to free arthas if he is still a loyalist to him and kinda his best buddy he ever had, or he is jus trying to draw the powers of the maw for himself to the become the new upper LK. Would fit him well, as a true Lich.

    Well, anything is better than another boring sylvanas story.......and i remember her beeing very annoying allready back in WC3, everywhere she shows up...
    Honest truth?

    They're pushing Sylvanas, because it fits the new social justice/"feminist" narrative. All of Blizzard's products are pushing that stuff, HARD. Just look at how they've replaced almost every faction with female racial leaders, killing off existing male characters to do so. Even Moira, who was originally presented as being EVIL AS SHIT, is now consistently portrayed as the more pragmatic and cunning of the Dwarven leaders.

    And with WoW's subscription base at its lowest to date, they probably just see it as too late to shift gears now. That's why Sylvanas is always "one step ahead of everyone else" and has almost no flaws, except those that are deemed "cool". Honestly, watching the Shadowlands cinematic "fight" was a cringe-fest for that reason. They couldn't even have Bolvar land a single fucking hit on her, and they had to show how effortlessly she could deal with him.

    It's one of the reasons I just want to be rid of her as a central character. Blizzard clearly sees Sylvanas as the "embodiment of female-empowerment", and as such, they're too afraid to put her into situations that make her look bad, or weak, or even just emotionally vulnerable. And it's boring as fuck.

  6. #306
    Let me repeat it again. Arthas absoloutley deserves to stay in the maw for all eternity. The apologism by his fans need to stop. He has no redeeming qualities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    Honest truth?

    They're pushing Sylvanas, because it fits the new social justice/"feminist" narrative. All of Blizzard's products are pushing that stuff, HARD. Just look at how they've replaced almost every faction with female racial leaders, killing off existing male characters to do so. Even Moira, who was originally presented as being EVIL AS SHIT, is now consistently portrayed as the more pragmatic and cunning of the Dwarven leaders.

    And with WoW's subscription base at its lowest to date, they probably just see it as too late to shift gears now. That's why Sylvanas is always "one step ahead of everyone else" and has almost no flaws, except those that are deemed "cool". Honestly, watching the Shadowlands cinematic "fight" was a cringe-fest for that reason. They couldn't even have Bolvar land a single fucking hit on her, and they had to show how effortlessly she could deal with him.

    It's one of the reasons I just want to be rid of her as a central character. Blizzard clearly sees Sylvanas as the "embodiment of female-empowerment", and as such, they're too afraid to put her into situations that make her look bad, or weak, or even just emotionally vulnerable. And it's boring as fuck.
    Are you afraid of center and strong females? Someone sounds threatened

  7. #307
    Pandaren Monk Tyrannica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    Honest truth?

    They're pushing Sylvanas, because it fits the new social justice/"feminist" narrative. All of Blizzard's products are pushing that stuff, HARD. Just look at how they've replaced almost every faction with female racial leaders, killing off existing male characters to do so. Even Moira, who was originally presented as being EVIL AS SHIT, is now consistently portrayed as the more pragmatic and cunning of the Dwarven leaders.

    And with WoW's subscription base at its lowest to date, they probably just see it as too late to shift gears now. That's why Sylvanas is always "one step ahead of everyone else" and has almost no flaws, except those that are deemed "cool". Honestly, watching the Shadowlands cinematic "fight" was a cringe-fest for that reason. They couldn't even have Bolvar land a single fucking hit on her, and they had to show how effortlessly she could deal with him.

    It's one of the reasons I just want to be rid of her as a central character. Blizzard clearly sees Sylvanas as the "embodiment of female-empowerment", and as such, they're too afraid to put her into situations that make her look bad, or weak, or even just emotionally vulnerable. And it's boring as fuck.
    while this femenist justice thing might annoy some i do not really care too much about that one. Its not like we have in each expansion 3 hard pushed female leads, and they all kinda make sense, since they are powerful witches all of them.(medieval folk would not even differentiate between, mage, sea witch or necromancer(with an dark ranger outfit and stupid bow) at least you can believe those would pose a threat to anyone, if unchecked.

    The problem with Sylvanas is, that her character and what she does in the game, but especially cinematics, is just boring and bad writing and does not feel like the warcraft of the old days at all. 15 years ago, with a quite different blizzard direction, the 4th war, aka war campaign should have ended in a big battle, certainly not in a duel with sylvanas cheating.(Not allowed to use that kind of magic or magic at all afaik)
    I was just very pissed to see the war campaign ending in such an anticlimatic way....without a big battle, but someone using deus ex machina power in a duel. I can't be the only one?

    Its just very, very annoying to see how blizz repeates this in the intro of shadowlands.....nice too see icecrown again, but why put another silly duel with her into it? Blizz just doubles down on the Saurfang vs Sylvanas crap.

    Also she is not convincing me much as a villain. I would expect rather someone with great magic power, like kel thuzad(maw empowered) or corrupted Medivh/Khadgar.

    But not a dark ranger class playing with necromancy. This might be unique, but feels so odd. I do not like this at all, tbh.

    I rather think, Garrosh, how stupid he might have been, was still a better fit in the lore than current Sylvanas. At least his class specifics made some sense to me.

    Well, he was right about not trusting her back in cataclysm. The man we need, but we don't deserve. I'd rather have a Garrosh pushing the horde into agressive wars with the alliance than that fake sylvanas character, that can't probably convience anyone, she is just an lore abomination, now.

    That aside, like with BfA, i bought shadowlands epic edition instantly, this time way sooner, so this small indie company will have the much needed funds, to hire a competent writer, and probably can develop into a big company one day, providing them more creative personel and writers, i mean we are kinda back in the early 90ies allready, just with artists of our current time doing great quality cinematics, but disgusting screenwriting.
    Last edited by Tyrannica; 2019-12-12 at 06:28 PM.

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    Honest truth?

    They're pushing Sylvanas, because it fits the new social justice/"feminist" narrative. All of Blizzard's products are pushing that stuff, HARD. Just look at how they've replaced almost every faction with female racial leaders, killing off existing male characters to do so. Even Moira, who was originally presented as being EVIL AS SHIT, is now consistently portrayed as the more pragmatic and cunning of the Dwarven leaders.

    And with WoW's subscription base at its lowest to date, they probably just see it as too late to shift gears now. That's why Sylvanas is always "one step ahead of everyone else" and has almost no flaws, except those that are deemed "cool". Honestly, watching the Shadowlands cinematic "fight" was a cringe-fest for that reason. They couldn't even have Bolvar land a single fucking hit on her, and they had to show how effortlessly she could deal with him.

    It's one of the reasons I just want to be rid of her as a central character. Blizzard clearly sees Sylvanas as the "embodiment of female-empowerment", and as such, they're too afraid to put her into situations that make her look bad, or weak, or even just emotionally vulnerable. And it's boring as fuck.

    What. Moira was never evil. You just found out that she ran away with her lover, which, in Vanilla, you murdered after thinking that he kidnapped her. That doesn't make her evil, just seduced. And she was always pragmatic. Some of her end lines told you that now she'd be able to rule over the kingdom of Dark Iron -- something that she wouldn't be able to do with Ironforge as she wasn't in position to be heir of, if I'm not mistaken.

    As for the cinematic fight:

    A) Bolvar did land some hits in. Mainly with large rocks and shit.
    B) Sylvanas has a sugar daddy that she's getting power from. She has a BOSS. I don't know where you're getting your feminist thing from, because it isn't her power that she's using.
    C) Sylvanas has tons of flaws. One being that if you threaten her physical safety or prick her pride too hard, she does irrational, impetuous things like denouncing the Forsaken and Horde, thus handing Saurfang's underdogs a huge victory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    Let me repeat it again. Arthas absoloutley deserves to stay in the maw for all eternity. The apologism by his fans need to stop. He has no redeeming qualities.

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    Are you afraid of center and strong females? Someone sounds threatened
    LOL



    As for the original topic, Arthas is most certainly in the Shadowlands, and I am almost 100% certain that he's going to be a central figure to the story in some way. They talk about the Helm, and Frostmourne, and in the cinematic, Sylvanas indirectly makes constant references to him during the monologue. But they never directly mention him. Not once. It is glaring and very, very deliberate. From a literary standpoint, it's practically like screaming his name, the omission is so obvious. So yeah, I'm rather sure that Arthas will be involved, and not in a trivial way.

  9. #309
    Pandaren Monk Tyrannica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    Let me repeat it again. Arthas absoloutley deserves to stay in the maw for all eternity. The apologism by his fans need to stop. He has no redeeming qualities.
    None, like, he wanted to save his people from an all consuming scourge and was corrupted by a sword?

    He got sucked into the maw, only, because of frostmourne and his lichking powers/knowledge.

    Or else, guys like Kael'thas would be there, too. I mean he was responsible for the fel bloodelves at the sunwell, yet he ends up in Revendreth.

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    None, like, he wanted to save his people from an all consuming scourge and was corrupted by a sword?
    During which he never once stopped to question if he was doing the right thing, rather than just wanting it. He was part of the Highway 666 construction crew.

  11. #311
    Pandaren Monk Tyrannica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    During which he never once stopped to question if he was doing the right thing, rather than just wanting it. He was part of the Highway 666 construction crew.
    well, wc3 was played in real time(RTS) so there was not time to question anything in face of the scourge and another demonic invasion.

    If, wc3 only would have been TBS...maybe some thinking would happen. I guess he could relax with a cup of coffee and question his very existense for about 1 hour / turn, while deploying his troops on the battlefield.

    But, seriously this was just an old game with bad screenwriting, Arthas could have been fleshed out much more to make his descisions believable. The point is, in no way he appears to be an evil guy, before picking up frostmourne, he does questionable things, sometimes even disgusting ones. But those actions are that of a desperate madman in a war against the undead hordes.

    He is in the maw, because he is either too dangerous to be elsewhere in the shadowlands, or because he is part of a plan.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    well, wc3 was played in real time(RTS) so there was not time to question anything in face of the scourge and another demonic invasion.

    If, wc3 only would have been TBS...maybe some thinking would happen. I guess he could relax with a cup of coffee and question his very existense for about 1 hour / turn, while deploying his troops on the battlefield.

    But, seriously this was just an old game with bad screenwriting, Arthas could have been fleshed out much more to make his descisions believable. The point is, in no way he appears to be an evil guy, before picking up frostmourne, he does questionable things, sometimes even disgusting ones. But those actions are that of a desperate madman in a war against the undead hordes.

    He is in the maw, because he is either too dangerous to be elsewhere in the shadowlands, or because he is part of a plan.
    Yep. Peak delusional. Of course he was evil. Genociding the High Elves and holding a big speech to rub it into their faces? Killing his own father and kingdom? Trying to drown the entire world in undeath? Killing the last of his symbolic humanity(Mathias Lehner), dooming three different kingdoms and trying with Gilneas too(almost succeeded). Stop it. He hits all the goal posts of how to be an evil overlord straight from the books.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    None, like, he wanted to save his people from an all consuming scourge and was corrupted by a sword?

    He got sucked into the maw, only, because of frostmourne and his lichking powers/knowledge.

    Or else, guys like Kael'thas would be there, too. I mean he was responsible for the fel bloodelves at the sunwell, yet he ends up in Revendreth.
    Another thing. Feeling sorry or regretful about what you did. But Arthas never questioned his path. He was a royal bratty monarch and died like it until the very end. His story is over for good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrysis View Post
    What. Moira was never evil. You just found out that she ran away with her lover, which, in Vanilla, you murdered after thinking that he kidnapped her. That doesn't make her evil, just seduced. And she was always pragmatic. Some of her end lines told you that now she'd be able to rule over the kingdom of Dark Iron -- something that she wouldn't be able to do with Ironforge as she wasn't in position to be heir of, if I'm not mistaken.

    As for the cinematic fight:

    A) Bolvar did land some hits in. Mainly with large rocks and shit.
    B) Sylvanas has a sugar daddy that she's getting power from. She has a BOSS. I don't know where you're getting your feminist thing from, because it isn't her power that she's using.
    C) Sylvanas has tons of flaws. One being that if you threaten her physical safety or prick her pride too hard, she does irrational, impetuous things like denouncing the Forsaken and Horde, thus handing Saurfang's underdogs a huge victory.



    LOL



    As for the original topic, Arthas is most certainly in the Shadowlands, and I am almost 100% certain that he's going to be a central figure to the story in some way. They talk about the Helm, and Frostmourne, and in the cinematic, Sylvanas indirectly makes constant references to him during the monologue. But they never directly mention him. Not once. It is glaring and very, very deliberate. From a literary standpoint, it's practically like screaming his name, the omission is so obvious. So yeah, I'm rather sure that Arthas will be involved, and not in a trivial way.
    Nah. Ion spoiled it. Arthas is dead. Sorry guys. Watch the blizzcon ceremony again.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    But, seriously this was just an old game with bad screenwriting, Arthas could have been fleshed out much more to make his descisions believable. The point is, in no way he appears to be an evil guy, before picking up frostmourne, he does questionable things, sometimes even disgusting ones. But those actions are that of a desperate madman in a war against the undead hordes.
    His actions are believable for a short-sighted idiot who puts self-aggrandisement and revenge over the real wellbeing of his people.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    His actions are believable for a short-sighted idiot who puts self-aggrandisement and revenge over the real wellbeing of his people.
    What was the alternative? Let the Scourge do whatever they wanted to do? Let them continue turning more people into undead?

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    Nah. Ion spoiled it. Arthas is dead. Sorry guys. Watch the blizzcon ceremony again.
    cuz blizz and Ion in particulat are known for telling only truth, from BfA not having Old God influence to vulpera not being allied race /s

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by ornichi View Post
    cuz blizz and Ion in particulat are known for telling only truth, from BfA not having Old God influence to vulpera not being allied race /s
    Knowing how opportunistic blizz is I'm pretty shocked they didn't use Arthas still now, his still their golden boy and one if not the most loved character blizz create, i will be surprised if they don't use him at least in a cinematic next expansion, tho im cool with him not coming back, i don't want an Illidanv2

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Linuriel View Post
    What was the alternative? Let the Scourge do whatever they wanted to do? Let them continue turning more people into undead?
    It didn't change anything. Stratholme is still burning and filled with undead. All Arthas did was to make a scourge victory even faster speeded. He could have at least tried to evacuate non infected people.

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    It didn't change anything. Stratholme is still burning and filled with undead. All Arthas did was to make a scourge victory even faster speeded. He could have at least tried to evacuate non infected people.
    1) I'm not talking about Stratholme, but defeating Mal'ganis in order to stop the Scourge. Which is what Arthas set out to do when he took up Frostmourne and chased after Mal'ganis.
    2) Clearly the Scourge wasn't stopped, even with Mal'ganis' death. That is the irony behind Arthas' story. That he was willing to bear any curse to save his people, but that curse (when he picked up Frostmourne) corrupted him and made him a puppet of the Lich King.

    Many people here fail to understand this. That was the whole point of his story.

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Linuriel View Post
    What was the alternative? Let the Scourge do whatever they wanted to do? Let them continue turning more people into undead?
    Talk to others and get help because the problem is beyond his ability to tackle alone.

  20. #320
    Old God Shampro's Avatar
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    Arthas apologist are hilarious. They're the same people who bitch 24/7 about Sylvanas too.

    I wonder why....hmmmm. Hmmmm.

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