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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    Yep. Peak delusional. Of course he was evil. Genociding the High Elves and holding a big speech to rub it into their faces? Killing his own father and kingdom? Trying to drown the entire world in undeath? Killing the last of his symbolic humanity(Mathias Lehner), dooming three different kingdoms and trying with Gilneas too(almost succeeded). Stop it. He hits all the goal posts of how to be an evil overlord straight from the books.

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    Another thing. Feeling sorry or regretful about what you did. But Arthas never questioned his path. He was a royal bratty monarch and died like it until the very end. His story is over for good.

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    Nah. Ion spoiled it. Arthas is dead. Sorry guys. Watch the blizzcon ceremony again.
    Of course Arthas is dead. Shadowlands is where dead people go after all. :-3 They mentioned that we'll be interacting with Uther, and he's definitely dead.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Talk to others and get help because the problem is beyond his ability to tackle alone.
    Who should he have talked to?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shampro View Post
    Arthas apologist are hilarious. They're the same people who bitch 24/7 about Sylvanas too.

    I wonder why....hmmmm. Hmmmm.
    Sylvanas was not corrupted by Frostmourne. She did everything out of her free will.

    Arthas was a tragic hero, with good intentions, who got on the wrong path and fell victim to a curse.

    Sylvanas is a misanthropic cunt.

  3. #323
    Pandaren Monk Tyrannica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    Yep. Peak delusional. Of course he was evil. Genociding the High Elves and holding a big speech to rub it into their faces? Killing his own father and kingdom? Trying to drown the entire world in undeath? Killing the last of his symbolic humanity(Mathias Lehner), dooming three different kingdoms and trying with Gilneas too(almost succeeded). Stop it. He hits all the goal posts of how to be an evil overlord straight from the books.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica
    But, seriously this was just an old game with bad screenwriting, Arthas could have been fleshed out much more to make his descisions believable. The point is, in no way he appears to be an evil guy, before picking up frostmourne, he does questionable things, sometimes even disgusting ones. But those actions are that of a desperate madman in a war against the undead hordes.
    Can't you read?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    It didn't change anything. Stratholme is still burning and filled with undead. All Arthas did was to make a scourge victory even faster speeded. He could have at least tried to evacuate non infected people.
    lol, you never watched a modern zombie movie, isn't it?

    Its those people that can't make hard decisions that in the end screw the world.

    But to be fair, Arthas had to deal with more than just an undead infection and Mal'ganis, he did not know that, and in the end got corrupted. He had no clue about the Lich King and Archimonde/KJ.

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    lol, you never watched a modern zombie movie, isn't it?

    Its those people that can't make hard decisions that in the end screw the world.

    But to be fair, Arthas had to deal with more than just an undead infection and Mal'ganis, he did not know that, and in the end got corrupted. He had no clue about the Lich King and Archimonde/KJ.
    Movies aren't a good source of advice for anything. Also, Arthas failed to do exactly that. He always picked the easy path. No effort to convince others that Stratholme was necessary or that there was an actual threat in Northrend, no attempt to find an alternative to Frostmourne, which we now know was neither needed(any other weapon would have worked just as well) nor actually worked as claimed(Mal'ganis just came back anyway).

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrysis View Post

    A) Bolvar did land some hits in. Mainly with large rocks and shit.
    B) Sylvanas has a sugar daddy that she's getting power from. She has a BOSS. I don't know where you're getting your feminist thing from, because it isn't her power that she's using.
    C) Sylvanas has tons of flaws. One being that if you threaten her physical safety or prick her pride too hard, she does irrational, impetuous things like denouncing the Forsaken and Horde, thus handing Saurfang's underdogs a huge victory.
    He actually doesn't land a single hit. Go watch it again. She either dodges the rocks, or goes THROUGH them.

    Also, at Blizzcon they were *VERY* clear that she *DOES NOT* "work for" the new big-bad. They are "working together", they are essentially peers. Which is clearly BS, because you're right, this new villain is clearly the source of her power, but the devs were extremely deliberate in communication she is in no way subservient to them.

    Finally... someone else replied, suggesting I'm against "strong female characters". Don't know if that was being facetious or not, but I can certainly see where it might come across that way. I'm genuinely not, though.

    Tyrande, for example, is one of my favorite characters. And to be perfectly frank, I actually *do* think Malfurion bogs her character down in a very real way. WC3 Tyrande was fucking awesome, capable of being both logical and incredibly savage, when the situation demanded it. I kind of want to see Malfurion die, just for what it could do for Tyrande's character. But I also don't want her "going off the deep-end with rage", either, which I WORRY is what they're doing with her and the "Night Warrior" thing.

    Alternatively, I'd love to see Shandris Feathermoon take up the mantle of "Amazonian Matriarch". I think she's a surprisingly cool character who deserves her time to shine. But lean on the "Amazonian" elements a bit more, get her out of all this Human plate-armor, make her a nimble, lethal archer. Actually have her repping the Night Elf CULTURE, not "the Alliance" as some generic amalgamation.

    Sylvanas, to me, *was* a cool character. But they just decided "she's going to become the face of Warcraft, to show how open-minded all of us are here at Blizzard", and her story just went kind of bonkers. She hasn't grown as a character, and hasn't even been entirely consistent with herself, it's like the approach every scene like "what could we do here to make Sylvanas seem even cooler or more of a badass?".

    You know what would make Sylvanas a great character, at least in MY mind?

    Actually show some vulnerability. Maybe Vereesa and/or Nathanos gets killed because of the conflict she started, and she breaks down crying. Maybe, when Arthas is inevitably revealed in some capacity in Shadowlands, she starts having a panic attack, touching on some very real PTSD she has since Arthas originally forcibly controlled her. Make her feel HUMAN, not just some "feminist icon". And don't just constantly have her kick everyone's ass. Showing a character struggle is what makes us cheer when they overcome challenges.

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    He actually doesn't land a single hit. Go watch it again. She either dodges the rocks, or goes THROUGH them.

    Also, at Blizzcon they were *VERY* clear that she *DOES NOT* "work for" the new big-bad. They are "working together", they are essentially peers. Which is clearly BS, because you're right, this new villain is clearly the source of her power, but the devs were extremely deliberate in communication she is in no way subservient to them.

    Finally... someone else replied, suggesting I'm against "strong female characters". Don't know if that was being facetious or not, but I can certainly see where it might come across that way. I'm genuinely not, though.

    Tyrande, for example, is one of my favorite characters. And to be perfectly frank, I actually *do* think Malfurion bogs her character down in a very real way. WC3 Tyrande was fucking awesome, capable of being both logical and incredibly savage, when the situation demanded it. I kind of want to see Malfurion die, just for what it could do for Tyrande's character. But I also don't want her "going off the deep-end with rage", either, which I WORRY is what they're doing with her and the "Night Warrior" thing.

    Alternatively, I'd love to see Shandris Feathermoon take up the mantle of "Amazonian Matriarch". I think she's a surprisingly cool character who deserves her time to shine. But lean on the "Amazonian" elements a bit more, get her out of all this Human plate-armor, make her a nimble, lethal archer. Actually have her repping the Night Elf CULTURE, not "the Alliance" as some generic amalgamation.

    Sylvanas, to me, *was* a cool character. But they just decided "she's going to become the face of Warcraft, to show how open-minded all of us are here at Blizzard", and her story just went kind of bonkers. She hasn't grown as a character, and hasn't even been entirely consistent with herself, it's like the approach every scene like "what could we do here to make Sylvanas seem even cooler or more of a badass?".

    You know what would make Sylvanas a great character, at least in MY mind?

    Actually show some vulnerability. Maybe Vereesa and/or Nathanos gets killed because of the conflict she started, and she breaks down crying. Maybe, when Arthas is inevitably revealed in some capacity in Shadowlands, she starts having a panic attack, touching on some very real PTSD she has since Arthas originally forcibly controlled her. Make her feel HUMAN, not just some "feminist icon". And don't just constantly have her kick everyone's ass. Showing a character struggle is what makes us cheer when they overcome challenges.
    You could easily put "working with" in quotes. The power dynamic between an entity like the Jailer and Sylvanas is so big that for all intents and purposes, the Jailer is her boss at this point. But, if you want to stick with semantics, she has a sugar daddy. It still isn't her power.

    If you think Sylvanas is being used for feminist representation, you have some really unhealthy ideas of what feminism is. You also don't really see the bigger picture.

    They're not using Sylvanas as an icon, or representation. They're REMOVING her. They are straight up getting rid of her and writing her out of the story. But because she's been in the lore so long, they have to do it in a big way. This has nothing to do with feminism or any of that bullshit. Alliance and Horde stories have been the same, repeating story lines for a while now -- Alliance good, Horde bad. There were a few things holding back the writing, and Sylvanas was a huge part of that. With Sylvanas, the Forsaken didn't match the rest of the Horde, and it was always plagueplagueplague, murdermurdermurder. No genuine reason for it either, other than that's what was expected. The moment they made her warchief in Legion, you should have known that they were working on removing her. ALL of the signs were there. Right now, Sylvanas is a literary tool. She's being used to incite conflict in the Alliance, and introduce the next big bad. The fact that she took care of Bolvar and Saurfang so easily isn't anything to do with Sylvanas; it's supposed to be a reflection of how powerful and scary the Jailer is because she's borrowing his power. She's the moon, and the Jailer is the sun.

    Crying would not match Sylvanas' character. When she feels threatened or vulnerable, she acts irrationally for a bit. Crying is kind of useless. And they're not going to make her more relate-able because they're getting rid of her. Her story is soon to be finished. There is no more purpose for her. She will be removed, one way or another, so that the identity of both the Forsaken and the Horde can develop further. It's sort of like how you could predict that they'd kill off Varian because his story was finished, and he needed to be gone in order for Anduin's story to be told.

    So just chill out, relax, and wait for Shadowlands. Sylvanas will finally be kicked out of the picture, and then we'll have to deal with the Jailer who is supposed to be way scarier.
    Last edited by Scrysis; 2019-12-13 at 11:26 PM.

  7. #327
    Old God Shampro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linuriel View Post
    Who should he have talked to?

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    Sylvanas was not corrupted by Frostmourne. She did everything out of her free will.

    Arthas was a tragic hero, with good intentions, who got on the wrong path and fell victim to a curse.

    Sylvanas is a misanthropic cunt.
    Exibit A, incredible. I know I'm wasting my time but let me correct you:

    -Arthas was a cunt even before he picked the sword, he intentionally sabotaged his men so they wouldn't return home in Northrend.

    -Arthas was never mind controlled, he actually actively pushed out Ner'zhul from the Helm so he could be in charge, everything fucked up that happened in Northrend? 100% Arthas.

    -Arthas' soul was taken by Frostmourne but it never mind controlled him, it empowered him. If you condemn Sylvanas you will condemn Arthas, or even more so.

    -Sylvanas' literal character is one of being a hero that defended her homeland to her last breath and didn't get to have a clean death. ''Arthas is a hero'' I guess that's why the Blood Elves still recall the fall of Sylvanas to this day because she isn't.

    -Her literal being, her very soul was ripped to pieces by Arthas, she's not just a zombie, read what a Banshee is once, it'll do you a lot of good.

    Arthas was a manchild before the sword, and he's a cunt even more so afterwards, that's why he's where he is. Sylvanas never had the choice, he made it for her, that's why she abhors the fucker. Basic lore right there.
    Last edited by Shampro; 2019-12-14 at 01:38 AM.

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by Shampro View Post
    Exibit A, incredible. I know I'm wasting my time but let me correct you:

    -Arthas was a cunt even before he picked the sword, he intentionally sabotaged his men so they wouldn't return home in Northrend.

    -Arthas was never mind controlled, he actually actively pushed out Ner'zhul from the Helm so he could be in charge, everything fucked up that happened in Northrend? 100% Arthas.

    -Arthas' soul was taken by Frostmourne but it never mind controlled him, it empowered him. If you condemn Sylvanas you will condemn Arthas, or even more so.

    -Sylvanas' literal character is one of being a hero that defended her homeland to her last breath and didn't get to have a clean death. ''Arthas is a hero'' I guess that's why the Blood Elves still recall the fall of Sylvanas to this day because she isn't.

    -Her literal being, her very soul was ripped to pieces by Arthas, she's not just a zombie, read what a Banshee is once, it'll do you a lot of good.

    Arthas was a manchild before the sword, and he's a cunt even more so afterwards, that's why he's where he is. Sylvanas never had the choice, he made it for her, that's why she abhors the fucker. Basic lore right there.

    Let me intervene here just a smidge. I agree with some of your points, but I think there are some legitimate challenges to your other points.

    Let's start with the biggest turning point here with Arthas: Stratholme, since I know a few others have brought this point up as evidence that Arthas at that point was a villain.

    From the WC3 mission, ALL of the villagers were infected and were going to turn into undead. Even going outside of the mission, the infected grain had already been distributed and eaten. There was not (and still isn't) a known cure for the Plague of Undeath. I applaud who ever designed that point of the story because Stratholme was the Devil's Choice. Arthas wasn't a villain at the time, but his choice was damned either way. If he killed the villagers before the Plague took effect, he would be killing innocents and staining his soul with their deaths. If he didn't kill the villagers, they'd all come back as undead and would be running loose in the countryside, infecting and killing even more people. There wasn't any way of determining if there were any uninfected people in Stratholme (that was mentioned at that time at least). Arthas' choice is the most pragmatic one which probably would have saved more lives than the alternatives if Mal'Ganis hadn't shown up to bait Arthas into chasing him.


    So let's address some of your points:

    1) Arthas burned the boats after finding out that Uther, who was uppity after Arthas purged Stratholme, had Terenas order his son home. The men completely broke formation and were heading straight to the boats. Now, Arthas' information at the time was that Mal'Ganis had started the plague. With Mal'Ganis still out there, Lordaeron was still under threat from the undead. (We know know that this was a ruse, but Arthas did not know this at the time.) Uther and Terenas didn't have the information that Arthas had, and might have ignored him anyways. So Arthas burned the boats because he still needed his army. That isn't as terrible as you make it out to be since boats can be rebuilt. He did blame the mercenaries he paid to burn the boats. THAT was 100% a dick move that was probably done out of pragmatism. (Speculation here since I don't remember if they gave an explicit reason why he did this.) Speculation -- since his men immediately broke ranks to head back to the boats, if the men had known that Arthas had ordered the boats burned, they may have rebelled against his orders, and Arthas considered Mal'Ganis to be a real and deadly threat against his homeland. I'm not saying that bloodbath of the mercenaries wasn't a massive dick move, but there is some intent to save the greater whole of Lordaeron behind it.


    2) We're going to address this in order because it will make more sense -- Frostmourne took Arthas' soul. I'm not sure what you mean when you say that it "empowered him." Sure, it gave him more power, but that has nothing to do with morality. Frostmourne took Arthas' soul, and that combined with killing Mal'Ganis transformed Arthas into an undead deathknight under control of Ner'zhul. Hell, if you play the scourge campaign in WC3, this is made clear by the fact that Arthas is following the orders of the whispers in his head.

    3) When Arthas put the Helm of Domination on his head (while controlled, mind you), he became a Gestalt personality -- i.e. a merging of personalities. The scene you're referencing means that the "Arthas" personality became the most dominant, but it wasn't actually Arthas, because it was Arthas+Ner'zhul. (I'm guessing that Arthas' humanity is represented as the separate entity of Matthias Lehrner due to the fact that Frostmourne sucked his soul out.) This is extremely evident with the quest from the Halls of Reflection and the death scene of the Lich King (first one). Uther explains that the actual Arthas is little more than a fading vestige at this point, and that the Lich King needs to be destroyed where the two personalities began their merge. As he lay dying, Arthas asks the spirit of Terenas, "Father, is it over?" Both of those give very strong evidence that the real Arthas was NOT in control (hell, there is a whole set of quests with the embodiment of Arthas' humanity, which still exists). At the very least, you can say that the facet of Arthas that would have allowed him to make moral decisions -- Matthias Lehrner -- was a split and weakened entity not able to exert any control. With Frostmourne shattered and the Helm removed, Arthas' soul seems likely to have returned to him.


    As for Sylvanas .. . yes, she very much WAS the hero.

    The deathknight Arthas ripped her soul out of Frostmourne into the world to become a banshee, but I don't know that it was "ripped to pieces" because banshees are made of spirits. Now, if you want to argue that her soul was damaged in the process, I have no qualms with that. It's very possible that her soul is so damaged that Sylvanas is completely incapable of comprehending moral decisions. And that would match exactly with her actions once she was freed from control. If true, it presents a really good argument as to why Arthas might be redeemable while Sylvanas is not. As seen with the Wrath quests, Arthas' humanity still exists. If Sylvanas is that damaged, there is nothing left there to save.

    As a personal note, I don't think Sylvanas was written as well as Arthas was. For all of WoW's history, she has been a two-dimensional character, and it is a genuine shame since her backstory has some good foundations.

  9. #329
    Illidan did same thing. He killed his own kin to improve his magic. He is/was possesed by different powers. And now he is a hero ?

  10. #330
    I know that the fans are not going to allow me to say this, but ... the truth is that arthas has lost a lot of dignity because of the current decline of the death knights, which is so pronounced, that it has even been allowed to all existing races to be able to be, because currently there is no reason to play it. None. The dh is better in everything, and with 2 buttons.
    I think that arthas is in a situation of shame right now. And now that I think about it, I wonder where those dks that were really scary would be ... ah yes, they were nerfed ... and they became the garbage they are now, and over slow, very slow ..... this strategist will allow dk to all races will not work blizzard, people will continue playing the op, that is dh, the best melee today.

  11. #331
    if we even find Arthas, he will look like a child.

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