Arthas has to be in the Shadowlands

[Utrrabbit]

He absolutely was evil. And not only was he evil, but he was fucking around with Shadowlands stuff. The exact kind of person that gets tossed into the Maw.

You arent that smart. That wasnt arthas. He was corrupted by nerzul and frostmorne. The real arthas returns the helm is removed. That was nerzul corrupting him. To even think otherwise shows you know nothing.

[Yoshingo]

Yes, Arthas grabbed the sword out of his own free will, but his will has greatly wounded by everything Mal'Ganis did to him throughout the course of the campaign. I doubt Arthas, in his sound mind, would even consider picking up the weapon... or even purging Stratholme as a first course of action.

No, Arthas' will was not "wounded" by anything. He was prideful and arrogant.

Mal'ganis wanting him to become a minion of the Lich King doesn't mean Mal'ganis was doing anything to him. Literally the only thing Mal'ganis ever did was tell him to follow him.

You keep trying to infer some secret influence in all your posts and there were zero until Arthas took up Frostmourne, when his soul was stolen. And he knew the sword was cursed before taking it up, Muradin tells it to his face.

And, going back to the DK order hall campaign, didn't the Lich King threaten to re-take the Ebon Hold DKs under his control, or something? Memory wanes as my DK was not my main back then.

He can threaten whatever he wants, Arthas at his full power couldn't reassert control over the Ebon Blade. It was a meaningless threat to get them to fight the Legion. The Lich King and the Ebon Blade form a partnership to stop the Legion at whatever cost is necessary,

However, my point stands: wielding the blade slowly transforms you into someone else (as shown in WC3 with Arthas' descent into becoming the LK's first death knight) and putting the helm on heavily changes you.

Yes, the sword does. Nobody argued that it didn't. It steals your soul. The Helm, however, does not possess you or anything. There was nothing left in the Helm when Bolvar put it on.

[Villager720]

Uther, Jaina, Muradin etc did not see the greater picture, Arthas did.

You probaly did see what happened, after the scourge took over they summoned Archimonde and bring the burning legion. All that was needed for this was Kel'thuzad and the book of Medivh.

Uther and Jaina just walked away in face of this threat - but Kudos to Muradin wo made it to northrend.

I hate when people try to justfy Uther's and Jaina's mistakes in ignoring the scourge threat and blame it all on Arthas, who had the right intensions, before taking up that sword.

The problem wasn’t that Arthas wanted to purge Stratholme; it was that he didn’t try to think of any options to save anyone, and then accused Uther of treason for wanting to at least consider other options.

Arthas didn’t try to explain anything to Jaina or Uther.
The prince threw a tantrum and burned a city down without a second thought. Who doesn’t even pause before condemning the second largest population center in your kingdom?

Those sort of actions are why Arthas deserves the blame he receives. He consistently made questionable choices and refused to listen to anyone.

[Temp1on2]

No, Arthas' will was not "wounded" by anything. He was prideful and arrogant.

Mal'ganis wanting him to become a minion of the Lich King doesn't mean Mal'ganis was doing anything to him. Literally the only thing Mal'ganis ever did was tell him to follow him.

You keep trying to infer some secret influence in all your posts and there were zero until Arthas took up Frostmourne, when his soul was stolen. And he knew the sword was cursed before taking it up, Muradin tells it to his face.



He can threaten whatever he wants, Arthas at his full power couldn't reassert control over the Ebon Blade. It was a meaningless threat to get them to fight the Legion. The Lich King and the Ebon Blade form a partnership to stop the Legion at whatever cost is necessary,



Yes, the sword does. Nobody argued that it didn't. It steals your soul. The Helm, however, does not possess you or anything. There was nothing left in the Helm when Bolvar put it on.

You're getting yourself in for a long and depressing debate with someone that admits they don't know the most recent lore (yet argues from a standpoint that what they are saying is cannon).

This individual also said that someone who kills uninfected and infected babies to stop an infection spreading is evil, but this standard doesn't apply to Arthas and him doing it isn't evil.

[Egomaniac]

But he still got played to take up frostmourne, he did not know all the details about its curse and needed desperately to stop Mal'Ganis.

He is not the bad guy people want make him out to be, he made some hard decisions, because of the circumstances and pressure he had.

Kel'thuzad, on the other side.....

The whole point about Arthas is that he is corrupted before he even touches Frostmourne. It's your typical "Path to hell is paved with good intentions" trope.

The Culling of Straholme could possibly be justified as a necessary evil...but burning his fleet and betraying the mercenaries he hired to help him in Northrend is something else.

[plz delete account]

"The Culling of Stratholme"

this entire discussion must be purged

[Ielenia]

Replying to my posts and intentionally removing the quote code, so I'm not notified, in the hopes I skip over your post. Naughty, naughty yoshi...

No, Arthas' will was not "wounded" by anything. He was prideful and arrogant.

Mal'ganis wanting him to become a minion of the Lich King doesn't mean Mal'ganis was doing anything to him. Literally the only thing Mal'ganis ever did was tell him to follow him.

Go play the Warcraft 3 human campaign. It's all I'm going to tell you.

You keep trying to infer some secret influence in all your posts and there were zero until Arthas took up Frostmourne, when his soul was stolen. And he knew the sword was cursed before taking it up, Muradin tells it to his face.

Arthas' will was weakened due to everything that Mal'Ganis put him through, throughout the campaign, making him blind with rage.

He can threaten whatever he wants, Arthas at his full power couldn't reassert control over the Ebon Blade. It was a meaningless threat to get them to fight the Legion. The Lich King and the Ebon Blade form a partnership to stop the Legion at whatever cost is necessary,

"Couldn't"? Or did he simply opted not to? Because seemed to keep all the other death knights in check without much issue. Remember: the Lich King basically won the war, until Deus Ex Light intervened and freed Turalyon.

Yes, the sword does. Nobody argued that it didn't. It steals your soul. The Helm, however, does not possess you or anything.

Who said anything about the helm possessing you? Certainly not me, so I don't know why this keeps being repeated against me despite me never making that argument.

There was nothing left in the Helm when Bolvar put it on.

"Nothing"? I'm pretty sure there was "something" left in there to make Bolvar into what he became after donning the helm.

[Yoshingo]

Replying to my posts and intentionally removing the quote code, so I'm not notified, in the hopes I skip over your post. Naughty, naughty yoshi...

Or I just use the "quote" feature on the reply box. I don't care enough about you to "intentionally" do anything, chief.

Go play the Warcraft 3 human campaign. It's all I'm going to tell you.

I have. Apparently you need to. And then read Rise of the Lich King.

Arthas' will was weakened due to everything that Mal'Ganis put him through, throughout the campaign, making him blind with rage.

There's no evidence of this anywhere. Arthas was always haughty and arrogant, which was his downfall. You're supposed to figure that out right away when he goes a little nutso fighting the random Blademaster in the first mission. Again I guess you need to take your own advice and play Warcraft 3.

"Couldn't"? Or did he simply opted not to? Because seemed to keep all the other death knights in check without much issue. Remember: the Lich King basically won the war, until Deus Ex Light intervened and freed Turalyon.

He couldn't. Because why would he not if he could? Give me a good, credible, reason why the Lich King, in Wrath, wouldn't reestablish control over the Ebon Blade after they broke free and they were in Northrend, where he literally comes face-to-face with you, TIrion, Thassarian/Koltira, and Mograine show up in Tirion's Gambit to try and kill Arthas' heart. When he boasts that they're no longer in Light's Hope, and they're where he's at his most powerful.

Tell me why he wouldn't, in that moment, if he could, reestablish his control over ALLLLL the Death Knights that show up there to fight him in his backyard. Your argument makes zero sense. He had beaten the Paladins until...you know...he didn't. And then he was significantly wounded. Why wouldn't he turn the tables back around and secure a confirmed victory if he was able to do that?

If your argument is that he was at Light's Hope Chapel and he couldn't then fine but then why didn't he do it when we're literally fighting him underneath Icecrown Citadel, where he flatout says he's at his absolute strongest.

Who said anything about the helm possessing you? Certainly not me, so I don't know why this keeps being repeated against me despite me never making that argument.

Because you keep saying 'Heavy influence from the helm' if that's not posession or direct control, what is it? You keep using vague terms to try and argue specific facts and that's why everybody keeps disagreeing with you. There's no inherent force at work inside the helm that has sentience besides when Ner'zhul was in it. It literally just gives you the Necromantic powers of the Lich King and that's it.

"Nothing"? I'm pretty sure there was "something" left in there to make Bolvar into what he became after donning the helm.

What did he become according to you? Because he seems to largely be just Bolvar but with the kind of sad acceptance that this is his eternity now. He doesn't act like Ner'zhul. He doesn't act like Arthas. He's actively helped multiple groups in the last few years alone, and we're going to be working with him, again, in Shadowlands.

~~~~~

You've repeatedly implied that multiple people you've argued against are ignorant about the story. While your openly and flagrantly make claims and then immediately go, 'But I don't know for sure, that's just what I heard.'

That ain't how it works, chief. You have no proof of any of the vague claims that you keep making. You're just inserting random fanon assumptions.

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You're getting yourself in for a long and depressing debate with someone that admits they don't know the most recent lore (yet argues from a standpoint that what they are saying is cannon).

This individual also said that someone who kills uninfected and infected babies to stop an infection spreading is evil, but this standard doesn't apply to Arthas and him doing it isn't evil.

Yeah I see that now. Had to get my last reply in to him, but I'm done now.

[huth]

Again I guess you need to take your own advice and play Warcraft 3.

On an unrelated note, with Reforged due to be out within the next month, it might be a good time anyway.

[Temp1on2]

Who said anything about the helm possessing you? Certainly not me, so I don't know why this keeps being repeated against me despite me never making that argument.

Yes you did lol:

What you're doing is akin to blaming someone who was mind-controlled for the actions they were forced to take while under someone else's control.

Still waiting for you to respond to my post and explain how Sargeras killing uninfected children to stop a disease is evil, but arthas killing uninfected children to stop a disease isn't evil

[Tyrannica]

The whole point about Arthas is that he is corrupted before he even touches Frostmourne. It's your typical "Path to hell is paved with good intentions" trope.

The Culling of Straholme could possibly be justified as a necessary evil...but burning his fleet and betraying the mercenaries he hired to help him in Northrend is something else.

Its madness, like in D&D terms chaotic neutral. He still had good intensions, even after he snapped and started to make extreme decisions, on his own.

He got manipulated to take up that sword, stealing his soul and hearing the LKs whispers. The definate corruption started with frostmourne.

[Egomaniac]

Its madness, like in D&D terms chaotic neutral. He still had good intensions, even after he snapped and started to make extreme decisions, on his own.

He got manipulated to take up that sword, stealing his soul and hearing the LKs whispers. The definate corruption started with frostmourne.

As I already said...the path to hell is paved with good intentions. He adopted a "the ends justify the means" attitude. He was doing evil before he picked up that sword.

[Ielenia]

Or I just use the "quote" feature on the reply box. I don't care enough about you to "intentionally" do anything, chief.

So you admit to doing extra work for no reason other than not to trigger my notification? Since the 'reply with quote' option already does all the work for you.

Because you keep saying 'Heavy influence from the helm' if that's not posession or direct control, what is it?

So you're conflating "influence" with "possession". Those are not the same thing. "Influence" is when something guides you, urges you in a certain direction. "Possession" is when said something supplants your thoughts/will with their own.

Yes you did lol:



Still waiting for you to respond to my post and explain how Sargeras killing uninfected children to stop a disease is evil, but arthas killing uninfected children to stop a disease isn't evil

Learn the difference between "possession" and "mind-control" next time you try to pose as smart, so you don't crash and burn like you just did, there.

[Temp1on2]

Learn the difference between "possession" and "mind-control" next time you try to pose as smart, so you don't crash and burn like you just did, there.

Oh yes, the difference between possession where a different entity controls your body and actions, and mind control where a different entity controls your body and actions.

"Possession" is when said something supplants your thoughts/will with their own.

No, this isn't what possession means lol. Possession isn't about 'replacing your thoughts', i.e. brainwashing, possession is about direct control by replacing your consciousness. Look it up in a dictionary: "the state of being controlled by a demon or spirit - they said prayers to protect the people inside the hall from demonic possession"

No wonder you can't explain your ridiculous assertions with such a fundamental lack of understanding of the meaning of basic words. The only one crashing and burning in attempt to look intelligent is you I'm afraid.

[Rhlor]

raid boss in the maw

[Ielenia]

Oh yes, the difference between possession where a different entity controls your body and actions, and mind control where a different entity controls your body and actions.



No, this isn't what possession means lol. Possession isn't about 'replacing your thoughts', i.e. brainwashing, possession is about direct control by replacing your consciousness. Look it up in a dictionary: "the state of being controlled by a demon or spirit - they said prayers to protect the people inside the hall from demonic possession"

No wonder you can't explain your ridiculous assertions with such a fundamental lack of understanding of the meaning of basic words. The only one crashing and burning in attempt to look intelligent is you I'm afraid.

Another crash and burn.

"Possession" is when a spirit/demon/entity enters your body and takes it for its own. An example of this is that old Alliance quest in Honor Hold, Hellfire Peninsula, when you help a draenei anchorite perform exorcism to expel a demon spirit from a dwarf's body.

[Temp1on2]

Another crash and burn.

"Possession" is when a spirit/demon/entity enters your body and takes it for its own. An example of this is that old Alliance quest in Honor Hold, Hellfire Peninsula, when you help a draenei anchorite perform exorcism to expel a demon spirit from a dwarf's body.

Yet another example of cognitive dissonance:

Say what I said is wrong, then proceed to say possession is exactly what I said it was.

• Possession is where an entity takes control of your body - Wrong according to you.
• Possession is where an entity takes over your body - Right according to you. (By the way this isn't even what you said possesion was in the post I quoted, so you've yet again changed your argument mid-debate without acknowledging you were wrong)

Both what I said being wrong and what you said being right cannot be true at the same, they are mutually exclusive - that means they are either both right or neither of them are right.

• If Sargeras were to kill uninfected children to stop a disease - evil according to you.
• Arthas actually kills uninfected children to stop a disease - not evil according to you.

Again, both cannot be true at the same time - they are either both evil, or neither of them are evil.


You have a serious problem with logical reasoning.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

"You lied to your men, betrayed the mercenaries who fought for you, whats happening to you Arthas? Is Vengeance all that important to you."


Arthas was already unstable before Frostmourne. He was willing to be dishonest and screw over some of his own soldiers to get the job done. He wasn't willing to face the consequences of his actions and return home. He cared more about going after Mal'ganis and FYI Frostmourne didn't really kill Mal'ganis as we all learned. Also we know in that same campaign Arthas was sorta hot headed b4 the dead came in.


"Then we should get in there AND DESTROY THE BEASTS!"

"Calm yourself Prince Arthas, /Paladinspeech


I like Arthas but I'm not justifying his actions.

[Ielenia]

Yet another example of cognitive dissonance:

Crash and burn #3 for you. You're on a roll.

"Possession" is literally the entity entering your body, wearing your body, and controlling it as their own. Your mind is "kicked off the driver's seat", so to speak, as the entity takes full, direct control of your body.

"Mind control" is when the entity guides your thoughts and actions, telling you what to think and do. Your mind is still "in control" of your body, it still has "agency", but manipulated by an outside agent.

The closest and simplest analogy I can think of to finally get you to understand simple concepts is this: "possession" is akin to a person wearing a costume, your body being the costume; and "mind-control" is akin to a puppeteer guiding a marionette, your body being the marionette.

If you can't understand simple concepts (or refuse to) and instead insist on throwing big words in an attempt to sound smart, this will be my last reply to you.

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"You lied to your men, betrayed the mercenaries who fought for you, whats happening to you Arthas? Is Vengeance all that important to you."


Arthas was already unstable before Frostmourne. He was willing to be dishonest and screw over some of his own soldiers to get the job done. He wasn't willing to face the consequences of his actions and return home. He cared more about going after Mal'ganis and FYI Frostmourne didn't really kill Mal'ganis as we all learned. Also we know in that same campaign Arthas was sorta hot headed b4 the dead came in.


"Then we should get in there AND DESTROY THE BEASTS!"

"Calm yourself Prince Arthas, /Paladinspeech


I like Arthas but I'm not justifying his actions.

Oh, he was definitely arrogant and brash, but he wasn't evil. Mal'Ganis knew that, and capitalized on Arthas' weakness, making him fail again and again to protect his people, to again and again fail his duty as a paladin, to wound his pride and force him into the state of mind that would make him pick up Frostmourne without a second thought. That was Mal'Ganis' plan all along.

[Dark Succ]

All the people in stratholme were not infected.

Seconded. Not to mention, contrary to popular belief, some people actually survived Arthas & Mal'ganis' rampage in Stratholme. Many followed Jaina to Kalimdor, others followed Uther, and some departed for Stormwind.

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this entire discussion must be purged

How can you even consider that? There's got to be some other way!