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  1. #1

    Diablo IV trading

    - Consumables will always be tradeable.
    - Powerful items can be traded, but only once.
    - The most powerful items will not be tradeable.
    (information is from diablofans.com)

    This is so wrong. This is going the D3 path. If powerful items are not tradeable, that just means that their drop rates must be relatively high, to give each individual player a somewhat realistic chance to find the item he wants. That also means that we are back to not being excited about an item drop, no matter what it is, just like in D3. It was completely different in D2, finding a valuable item there was a rare moment and the excitement was accordingly. Finding items in D3 on the other hand feels like nothing to me...

    I remember when I once looked up a Diablo 2 Windforce on ebay, i think it was patch 1.09 or earlier. It was listed for 800 Euros (900 US$), that's how rare those items were. Such things give you something to look up to, in the hope that some day you'll find something of similar value. This equals motivation, it keeps you playing the game. A Zod rune had a drop chance of 1 in 184,000 or lower, don't know if I remember it correctly, later they increased the drop chance anyway. Finding it instead of trading for it was basically impossible, but you could work your (very long) way towards it through trades. Not discussing the dupes and bots topic here and their influence on the economy of D2.

    So I'd rather prefer the system "extremely rare but tradeable" instead of "relatively easy to find but not tradeable" for very powerful items. And no, this doesn't mean that you'll be able to equip your character easy and fast through trading for these powerful items, because nobody is gonna trade them for stuff you can easily find. However, you can't prevent people who are willing to invest real money in their character to get their hands on these items faster than anyone else. And even this is a good thing, as the items need to be found in game, and they don't come from a blizzard item shop. Anyone who has the luck to find such an item knows that he is in the possession of something very valuable. Even if you never find such an item, the hope alone is enough motivation.

    I also think that there are better ways to stop the value depreciation of items over time than soulbinding an item on pickup, on trade or on whatever. For example, give people an incentive to destroy items for crafting materials, even the most powerful items. This system would only work, if the materials you get from destroying an item would represent the real value of an item, the value as the community perceives it and not the value determined by the game mechanics, where two uniques have the same value but are entirely unequal in value for the player base.

  2. #2
    Titan Gallahadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XMD7007 View Post
    This is so wrong. This is going the D3 path. If powerful items are not tradeable, that just means that their drop rates must be relatively high, to give each individual player a somewhat realistic chance to find the item he wants.
    That's not strictly true. They've said that powerful items will be tradeable, once.

    The way I see it, D3's big problem wasn't that legendaries weren't tradeable. It's that Legendaries were considered the baseline of gear for most people...

    What I really hope, for D3, is that high end rares become the powerful "Base" that 90% of people will be wearing, they will be tradeable, so they'll form the basis of the economy, alongside consumables. Then, Legendaries will be EXTREMELY rare. Think most people using one maybe two, but they're build defining, and give huge power boosts.

    EDIT: Apparently there will be a new tier of gear "Mythic". THESE are the pieces that wont be tradable, and your character will only have one equipped at a time.

    From what they said above, combined with this, it would seem like Legendaries are the "Tradeable, but only once" tier of gear. So, yay for you, I guess?
    Last edited by Gallahadd; 2019-11-02 at 04:48 PM.
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  3. #3
    The only way I am going to play Diablo on a PC ever again ... is when they bring back decent trading through an AH.

    The first months of D3 were stellar.

    I played hardcore and found a plan to make popular leveling gear. What a great time I had. Everyone died and I crafted the gear all day long

    Then these whining kids went crying on the internet and ... Blizzard succumbed, killing not only the RMAH but - far worse - every Gold AH too, both in normal mode as in hardcore.

    I never saw a game BOMB as fast as D3 after deleting the trading thing. When they then introduced 6 or more easy modes, the game became totally meaningless.

    You can now play hardcore mode blind folded in “walk in the park modes” without EVER having the excitement of trading or grinding to sell and trade.

    What a dumb decision it was...

    No wonder Rob Pardo left shortly after this debacle.

  4. #4
    I agree, I hope they lift some of the trade restrictions till release. Limiting the number an item can be traded is a really good compromise if you ask me, though. If it's too severe you can still up that limit to 2, 3 or 4 trades.

    "Magic and Rare items are designed as stepping stones to help players familiarize themselves with gearing and itemization as they level. Sets are designed for fresh characters that reached max level and to act as a guide to how items interact and buff skills with very set play styles. Legendaries are designed as the next step past sets where you have free reign on developing item loadouts to suit your play style.
    Urgh...
    Last edited by Malacrass; 2019-11-02 at 04:48 PM.

  5. #5
    I'm not entirely sure the thought process behind "powerful items can only be traded once"

    Perhaps they're trying to keep the trade market from flooding with the best items? It kind of makes sense, then the value of godly items doesn't deteriorate as fast as they do each ladder reset in Diablo II.

    The real question is: What constitutes a "powerful item"? Is it a new item type? Is it legendary quality and up?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    The only way I am going to play Diablo on a PC ever again ... is when they bring back decent trading through an AH.
    Then you won't be playing. They've already confirmed they have no plans for an auction house.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Jahaga View Post
    I'm not entirely sure the thought process behind "powerful items can only be traded once"
    There's one thought process that Blizzard has and I do absolutely not agree with it:

    - if powerful items can only be traded once or not at all, then they can increase the drop rates of such items, as the trade limitation will prevent an item flood on the market
    - they want people to play the game for such powerful items instead of getting them by trading and this absolutely requires increased drop rates

    However, there's ZERO excitement if the most powerful items are not ultra rare. A drop of such an item feels like nothing, and Diablo is a loot driven game. They undermine their own system. Maybe players who played both, D2 and D3 can understand this.

    Blizzards way to do it:
    - most powerful items have reasonable drop rates so that anyone can find them, eventually
    - trade is limited or non existent, so there's no item flood on the market
    - eventually everyone will run around with these items and "enjoy" the game

    My preferred way to do it:
    - most powerful items have absolutely abysmal drop rates
    - no limit on trading these items
    - if you're lucky and you find one, you can feel special... if you don't need it, you can trade it and equip your character, or more of them, with good enough high end gear or trade it for a powerful item you're interested in
    - eventually only the most dedicated or lucky players will run around with these items, and they can feel special and really enjoy the game - they are NOT like everyone else
    - the "noob" players who don't have such items can work out a plan how to get them by trading, what other items to collect and look after to eventually complete a tradeable package... maybe it will take weeks or even months to farm the trade package, but they always have the hope, that they'll find something special some day
    - I think this system is also more fun and more motivating even for those who don't have such items, it gives them the hope and motivation to go on

    Diablo is a loot driven game, and it's no fun if you cannot set yourself apart from other, less dedicated or less lucky players.
    This breaks the motivation for all, even for those who aren't lucky or skilled, because there's nothing they can strive for if everyone gets the best loot by investing 20 hours of farming (D3 style).
    Last edited by XMD7007; 2019-11-02 at 06:33 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by XMD7007 View Post
    - if powerful items can only be traded once or not at all, then they can increase the drop rates of such items, as the trade limitation will prevent an item flood on the market
    - they want people to play the game for such powerful items instead of getting them by trading and this absolutely requires increased drop rates
    There's a simple alternative here that still works with having powerful items being incredibly rare while also not allowing them to be traded.

    Have them be the most powerful items in the game...but not so powerful that having them feels like the game has to be designed with having them in mind (which is essentially how D3 has been made).

    They should be great pieces to have, the cornerstones of the best builds...but you should also be able to make fun, viable builds that can go up against some of the toughest content without them. Have the gear in that range be the stuff that can be traded, including very rare but still tradeable items that has the limit on trading on it.

    And then you can have those best items be a step up, rather than a giant leap up, and are exceedingly rare...and bound to you when you get it. You still get to essentially lord it over others that you played enough or were lucky enough to get one (cause let's be honest, this isn't about game balance but about having that cool, exclusive item that others don't), but it also doesn't fall prey to issues concerning RMT or other such things.

    It allows for such items to be kept incredibly rare, the kind of items that when you see it drop you leap up from your chair in excitement...but because having them isn't crucial to playing the game at higher levels, the developers don't have to feel like they have to funnel the player toward getting them, because there are plenty of fun and viable options along the way that can be obtained, including very rare but not quite as rare, through killing monsters or through trading with others.

  9. #9
    Very good news; this was my primary concern. If you want a trading/economy endgame then there is PoE for you. Seriously it's a great game you will love it.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Thelxi View Post
    Very good news; this was my primary concern. If you want a trading/economy endgame then there is PoE for you. Seriously it's a great game you will love it.
    I agree, PoE at this point feels like trading simulator more than ARPG. Scammers, price fixers and flippers everywhere. There is nothing wrong with legendarys being baseline to have in every slot eventually. It just happened too fast in D3.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    The only way I am going to play Diablo on a PC ever again ... is when they bring back decent trading through an AH.

    The first months of D3 were stellar.

    I played hardcore and found a plan to make popular leveling gear. What a great time I had. Everyone died and I crafted the gear all day long

    Then these whining kids went crying on the internet and ... Blizzard succumbed, killing not only the RMAH but - far worse - every Gold AH too, both in normal mode as in hardcore.

    I never saw a game BOMB as fast as D3 after deleting the trading thing. When they then introduced 6 or more easy modes, the game became totally meaningless.

    You can now play hardcore mode blind folded in “walk in the park modes” without EVER having the excitement of trading or grinding to sell and trade.

    What a dumb decision it was...

    No wonder Rob Pardo left shortly after this debacle.
    They already stated no AH and good riddance. It works fine in an MMO setting where the economy is still restricted to a server preventing the supply of the best items from going out of control but it was terrbile in D3. Early in D3, I wasn't killing mobs more for the paltry gold that best items were posted for. Smart loot that is not tradeable is an even worse answer but the AH should not exist outside of maybe materials. The only way an AH works is if the person posting items have to be online for it to remain posted.

    But yeah, no AH is already a plus for me atm but there are other concerns I have with what was shown and interviewed via Quin69.
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  12. #12
    You guys know that there is something like a middleground, right?

    The appeal of D2 trading was that it felt like visiting a garage sale when you enter a tradegame, I wouldn't want an auction house or something similiar either.

    I don't know what POE does, never played that game. But I know that trading worked fine in Diablo 2. Yes there were methods to scam noobs, but you can easily fix those methods with modern game design.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Netherblood View Post
    I agree, PoE at this point feels like trading simulator more than ARPG. Scammers, price fixers and flippers everywhere. There is nothing wrong with legendarys being baseline to have in every slot eventually. It just happened too fast in D3.
    The worse that comes out of PoE trading is material and map trading. That would work entirely fine if it required minimal interaction from the seller but still required both to be online. A friend of mine shot an idea where in your hideout you can hire some merchant NPC to sell the items for you. Set a price for an item, he "advertises it" in some global interface. You pay the merchant has to be payed though, so there's the fee.
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  14. #14
    People are so delusional thinking blizzard will allow free trading...they literally tried that with D3 on release and the game crashed and burned. If you want to play D2 just go and play D2 ffs.

  15. #15
    Free trading is a HORRIBLE idea, and I'm glad they recognize that. People look at D2 with nostalgia-colored glasses, the reality of it is that if it was as popular now as it used to be back in the day, people would abuse the shit out of the system. Not to mention that even back then, duping and botting were at the core of the entire economy. You really want to go back to that world?

    D3's auction house was the epitome of how bad things can get with free trading. Playing the game was a terrible way to get good gear, and you were much better off just sitting in front of the AH interface and flipping things to make money. No in-game farming could compete with the revenue accumulated from AH gaming, and the best items never even made it to the AH in the first place - they were sold privately, for gold or for real money, giving ample space to scammers and con artists, and providing incentives for hackers to steal accounts.

    You should actually have to play the GAME to get gear. Even allowing materials/consumables to be traded might be questionable, but we'll have to see how it really works out in the end.

  16. #16
    i hated when something dropped and it was completely worthless to you so you vendored it or whatever

    in d2 you could mule trade items for different builds on different characters along with pooling a lot of great items together to trade for that 1 item to finalize your build

  17. #17
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    So here's where I stand ( Voice of reason as always ) Where the rush and need for trading? Sorry but i am glad for the way trading is going to be set up? Why? because i don't want to see china selling sets and all in game items, No thanks. D2 has been totally destroyed for 20 years because of trading. So is PoE.

    i hated when something dropped and it was completely worthless to you so you vendored it or whatever

    in d2 you could mule trade items for different builds on different characters along with pooling a lot of great items together to trade for that 1 item to finalize your build
    I mean....you could do that.... or you can do what 90% of D2 playerbase does and visit china for fully decked sets and builds. We all know that's what people do.
    Feeling good, My source just got done telling me the point of shadowlands and whats after with a nice bonus of what the 2 missing classes are in D4. Awesome! Fucking dope and cant wait for the future of both games.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Gallahadd View Post
    That's not strictly true. They've said that powerful items will be tradeable, once.

    The way I see it, D3's big problem wasn't that legendaries weren't tradeable. It's that Legendaries were considered the baseline of gear for most people...

    What I really hope, for D3, is that high end rares become the powerful "Base" that 90% of people will be wearing, they will be tradeable, so they'll form the basis of the economy, alongside consumables. Then, Legendaries will be EXTREMELY rare. Think most people using one maybe two, but they're build defining, and give huge power boosts.

    EDIT: Apparently there will be a new tier of gear "Mythic". THESE are the pieces that wont be tradable, and your character will only have one equipped at a time.

    From what they said above, combined with this, it would seem like Legendaries are the "Tradeable, but only once" tier of gear. So, yay for you, I guess?
    It seems they are trying to allow trading while stopping people from selling for real money by making the "most valuable" items bind on pickup. While this is annoying as freely trading them in D2 was great. Such as I trade you this OP item for an OP item I need/want. They did not have to contend with the level of farmers we have now. Also this will increase the time you play so they win again.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Reallyblizz View Post
    It seems they are trying to allow trading while stopping people from selling for real money by making the "most valuable" items bind on pickup. While this is annoying as freely trading them in D2 was great. Such as I trade you this OP item for an OP item I need/want. They did not have to contend with the level of farmers we have now. Also this will increase the time you play so they win again.
    Sounds right. I don't like it but I guess it's better than getting inundated with farmers. I did enjoy outfitting my friends in D2 though. Oh well.

  20. #20
    Titan Gallahadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reallyblizz View Post
    It seems they are trying to allow trading while stopping people from selling for real money by making the "most valuable" items bind on pickup. While this is annoying as freely trading them in D2 was great. Such as I trade you this OP item for an OP item I need/want. They did not have to contend with the level of farmers we have now. Also this will increase the time you play so they win again.
    Quote Originally Posted by EliWallach View Post
    Sounds right. I don't like it but I guess it's better than getting inundated with farmers. I did enjoy outfitting my friends in D2 though. Oh well.
    Exactly. Traders these days would have been 5% legit traders and 95% bots and spammers. Sad, but true.

    If our choices are limited trading with people, or freely trading with bots... I'm fine with how this is.

    Plus, we'll be able to trade legendaries, it's only Mythics (of which you can only equip 1 anyway) that are untradable. Seeing as they're SO rare, I'd rather have the shock/surprise of having on drop, tbh.
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