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  1. #441
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Well in my case dropping RoP would result in a 5% DPS loss according to sim (maybe more, maybe less, depends on how well i time my firestarters and meteors, and if i fuck up at boss timings)
    Comparing covenant abilities is very easy, you just compare one ability against another
    Comparing soulbind trees is difficult, because there are multiple rows of choices, which is a point where blizzard can balance different covenants out. You know, "this covenant has a +5% crit passive in their tree, but further choices are garbage, but THIS covenant has multiple DPS enhancing choices in their tree which result in the same net gain as +5% crit passive" - that kind of balancing)
    At any point it's impossible to judge right now, because we don't have anything to compare
    They might make it so convoluted that not even a sim can handle it. Thats the direction they want to move in at least, to get rid of all the simcraft lads.

  2. #442
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Well in my case dropping RoP would result in a 5% DPS loss according to sim (maybe more, maybe less, depends on how well i time my firestarters and meteors, and if i fuck up at boss timings)
    Comparing covenant abilities is very easy, you just compare one ability against another
    Comparing soulbind trees is difficult, because there are multiple rows of choices, which is a point where blizzard can balance different covenants out. You know, "this covenant has a +5% crit passive in their tree, but further choices are garbage, but THIS covenant has multiple DPS enhancing choices in their tree which result in the same net gain as +5% crit passive" - that kind of balancing)
    At any point it's impossible to judge right now, because we don't have anything to compare
    But you agree there are too many variables, correct?
    There are 36 specs...

    Some ones like crit? Some others like haste? Some like mastery?

    Is impossible to balance all this, like in your fortunate example. WHich i bet was a "happy coincidence" (the difference being so small)

  3. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    But you agree there are too many variables, correct?
    There are 36 specs...

    Some ones like crit? Some others like haste? Some like mastery?

    Is impossible to balance all this, like in your fortunate example. WHich i bet was a "happy coincidence" (the difference being so small)
    I believe that there is just enough variables to be able to balance everything out. You know, like having 1k test samples against 10. Like when you try to measure AC voltage as DC with high averages you get basically a 0, but when you don't use any averages you basically get sine signal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
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  4. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by Mamercus View Post
    That's not true. There are lots of situational talents. There are many classes that have niche utility that are great for certain encounters. There are some classes that are OP overall for a raid tier or a whole expansion or several but as bosses get nerfed it tends to get fine and WoW has had better balance in general than most other RPGs and MMOs.

    This is a situation in which your character gets soft locked into a covenant which is always going to be significantly mathematically superior for a certain niche within a certain spec and not others. The gaps if the example abilities stay the same are massive, probably to the point to a 5%+ damage gap. Guilds will expect you to pick the covenant that amplifies you niche the most, and swing healers and swing tanks will just have to suck it up or grind out covenant changes every week or whatever.

    No it doesn't matter as much for the people who are playing on the chill difficulties. But this aggravation in this system is just pointless and hopefully it will be changed but judging from the lack of change in BFA from alpha until the massive negative feedback from the launch being hopeful about this would be unwise.
    Then change to a guild that doesn't make you select a covenant, the thing is, every boss and every M+ could be done with every one of the 4 covenants, even if one performs better than the rest.

    The problem lies with player mentality, not the game or the devs in this case. I'm loving this player agency and everyone in my guild also loves it. We may not be as fast as other guilds in raid, but we certainly have a blast everyday we raid, because we are raiding with what we most like.

  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    I believe that there is just enough variables to be able to balance everything out. You know, like having 1k test samples against 10. Like when you try to measure AC voltage as DC with high averages you get basically a 0, but when you don't use any averages you basically get sine signal.
    You are talking about balancing...lets say there are 4 soul link partners per covenant.

    16 different talent TREES (with different choices)

    Per 36 classses...

    You are not being realistic

  6. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masternap View Post
    People will take the one with the mathematically best skills and that's it. I don't get why Blizzard thinks this gives choice to the players. It absolutely does not. Especially with this 'you can only choose one, so choose wisely' crap. This will only make me look up a guide on what's providing the best DPS/HPS/Utility.

    Am I missing something here or is this system a really dumb idea?
    Things get tweaked all the time. What's OP gets nerfed at some point and becomes shitty. Except resto druids, they're still retarded.

    But basically, even if you find the mathematical best, it could change at any time. You can change covenant anyway, and also it will depend on your spec. Also it's a combo of 2 skills, maybe you'll get 1 good and 1 bad in every scenario, so it comes down to what you prioritize, not eveything is a pure dmg min-maxing, there's also going to be things better for ST boss fights, aoe, PvP, other kind of utilities.
    Cure cancer, delete factions.

  7. #447
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    You are talking about balancing...lets say there are 4 soul link partners per covenant.

    16 different talent TREES

    Per 36 classses...

    You are not being realistic
    When you have debugging tool number of tests you can make is just CPU power, it doesn't matter if we are comparing 16 talent trees or 16000 talent trees when you have tools to compare them, only processing power is a concern.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  8. #448
    Well, there is a great chance that covenants will be one with more aoe, one with more single target, one half the two of them, and a last with utility++ who can compete with the dps gain, like survival or something.

    So yeah, it will be min maxed, but looking at the clusterfuck or raid boss with aoe/single/stay alive it aoe hard, it don't matter, you will be first on one boss, behind on the second.

  9. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    When you have debugging tool number of tests you can make is just CPU power, it doesn't matter if we are comparing 16 talent trees or 16000 talent trees when you have tools to compare them, only processing power is a concern.
    The fact remains...you have to CREATE one talent...that is the same DPS increase for 36 classes.

    Can you create one right now?
    How will you come up with one?

    One? Several...you have to create several talents...

  10. #450
    Quote Originally Posted by roahn the warlock View Post
    The only real solution is to ban recount and all simming. Get rid of Raider.io, and all that other crap. Make requiring it bannable. Problem solved. FFxiv has none of this, and raiding is fine.
    Fflogs and act would like to say hi, every rpg has min maxing, it's part of the game for some people. You take away meters and they just find another way, it solves nothing

  11. #451
    Plz, just embrace the world of customization. <----------------------------

    That's all there is to it. You need to embrace this world.
    Let me tell you how it is:

    -Is full of ups and downs
    -totally unbalanced when it comes to DPS
    -a mess (a good kind of mess)
    -Take a bath in it...create crazy builds for PvP
    -You might discover something OP
    -You might find YOUR playstyle

    Its a beautiful world the one of Customization. Just accept it (>_<)

  12. #452
    Quote Originally Posted by roahn the warlock View Post
    You're missing that 90% of players aren't going to care if their spell is 1% better.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Honestly if blizzard banned the use of Raider.io and all that bullshit tomorrow this would be a better game.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The only real solution is to ban recount and all simming. Get rid of Raider.io, and all that other crap. Make requiring it bannable. Problem solved. FFxiv has none of this, and raiding is fine.
    That is factually wrong. There are still plenty of people that use parsing tools to create dps meters. Squeenix tolerates this to a certain degree unless you go around and tell people how shit they are, at that point it becomes bannable, which still doesn't stop a few elitist pricks from trying to vote kick some people, because they accidentially hit a single target ability durch an aoe situation. This happens even in fucking leveling dungeons.
    /tar Tinker-zealot /point /lol
    WoW:Shadowlands - Danuser's Divina Commedia?

  13. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    But you agree there are too many variables, correct?
    There are 36 specs...

    Some ones like crit? Some others like haste? Some like mastery?

    Is impossible to balance all this, like in your fortunate example. WHich i bet was a "happy coincidence" (the difference being so small)
    I just thought about this:
    http://www.darklegacycomics.com/558

  14. #454
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    The fact remains...you have to CREATE one talent...that is the same DPS increase for 36 classes.

    Can you create one right now?
    How will you come up with one?

    One? Several...you have to create several talents...
    First thing - to be able to do so you have to have debugging tools in place. Even community itself managed to make one and it's called simcraft
    Second thing - you don't create ONE talent, that's the whole point, you create a whole row, a tree of talents of different power which balances itself out in the end.
    It's impossible to balance ONE talent against everyone, but it's possible to balance a talent TREE with multiple choices against everyone.

    It's very easy to see how much is a 5% DPS increase with debugging tools (seriously, just grab simcraft, make a whole bunch of different specs with similar gear, get the baseline, then give everyone 5% crit and run test again), what do you do next? Nerfing or buffing this talent doesn't change anything - everyone will lose/gain power proportionally. What you CAN do tho is to add a different talent that competes with this one and that benefits others more, so others, who value, say, versatility over crit, will pick this one.

    Then it becomes even easier considering talent trees - by picking one you are committed to it - say your spec values crit EXTREMELY high, and developers knows that, imagine being the only spec in the game to value crit that high - they'll have to balance this talent tree against you by... throwing bunch of conditional talents or fluff talents, like "your health regeneration increased by 400% when you drop below 20% health". While other talent tree will spread this power evenly through its branches, resulting in similar net gain for other specs, in comparison to your spec getting basically only 5% crit from your talent tree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  15. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    First thing - to be able to do so you have to have debugging tools in place. Even community itself managed to make one and it's called simcraft
    Second thing - you don't create ONE talent, that's the whole point, you create a whole row, a tree of talents of different power which balances itself out in the end.
    It's impossible to balance ONE talent against everyone, but it's possible to balance a talent TREE with multiple choices against everyone.

    It's very easy to see how much is a 5% DPS increase with debugging tools (seriously, just grab simcraft, make a whole bunch of different specs with similar gear, get the baseline, then give everyone 5% crit and run test again), what do you do next? Nerfing or buffing this talent doesn't change anything - everyone will lose/gain power proportionally. What you CAN do tho is to add a different talent that competes with this one and that benefits others more, so others, who value, say, versatility over crit, will pick this one.

    Then it becomes even easier considering talent trees - by picking one you are committed to it - say your spec values crit EXTREMELY high, and developers knows that, imagine being the only spec in the game to value crit that high - they'll have to balance this talent tree against you by... throwing bunch of conditional talents or fluff talents, like "your health regeneration increased by 400% when you drop below 20% health". While other talent tree will spread this power evenly through its branches, resulting in similar net gain for other specs, in comparison to your spec getting basically only 5% crit from your talent tree.
    In my opinion, please keep math away from customization

    I know i am addicted to this world of trying different builds...but i would hate for it to be entirely balanced and devoided of any art and immersion.

    If all customization was to be thought out like you want it to be...there would never be a moment of "EUREKA! I found the perfect option for me" or "EUREKA! I totally just broke the game just now"

    You are bringing "science" to a world of "art" and "self expression" i would be very sad if Blizzard followed your path. The science path.
    Same as asking a computer to do a drawing.
    Imagine if in the future computers will replace people in "art-forms"

    Blasphemy! But this is just my opinion...

  16. #456
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    Kinda OT but I would like to know: do factions still exist or do you act friendly with members of the same covenant regardless of race?

  17. #457
    For a fraction of hardcore players you're right. But it is a small small fraction.

  18. #458
    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    For a fraction of hardcore players you're right. But it is a small small fraction.
    I guess it's around 50,000 weekly active users, probably more like 80-200k if you include all the guilds that do not get CE worldwide. That is more active users than most of the top 20 games on Steam and among the most active and longest subscribed users in WoW.

    If you have ever joined a heroic PUG in which overgeared people struggle to kill an easy boss for hours, that is the reason why it helps to join like-minded groups of other people who do the math in this math game in which groups of people subtract numbers from a big boss bar number.

    A lot of those players, myself included, sometimes like the fluff in WoW and don't like it that much when the math conflicts with the fluff as in this case. For example, very few people actually race-stack or seriously class-stack even among the most hardcore guilds in the game apart from the WFers because a truly minor difference of sub-1% is irrelevant and is often overpowered by luck and skill. A 5-10% difference is not in that category and across the entire raid it means that unless the fight is undertuned on mythic that if your raid is not optimized it could mean additional dozens of hours of tedious and unnecessary wiping.

    It's probably around 10-20% of active subs and ranked pvpers are a smaller segment but they are similarly impacted by this high level design choice.

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by Mamercus View Post
    I guess it's around 50,000 weekly active users, probably more like 80-200k if you include all the guilds that do not get CE worldwide. That is more active users than most of the top 20 games on Steam and among the most active and longest subscribed users in WoW.

    If you have ever joined a heroic PUG in which overgeared people struggle to kill an easy boss for hours, that is the reason why it helps to join like-minded groups of other people who do the math in this math game in which groups of people subtract numbers from a big boss bar number.

    A lot of those players, myself included, sometimes like the fluff in WoW and don't like it that much when the math conflicts with the fluff as in this case. For example, very few people actually race-stack or seriously class-stack even among the most hardcore guilds in the game apart from the WFers because a truly minor difference of sub-1% is irrelevant and is often overpowered by luck and skill. A 5-10% difference is not in that category and across the entire raid it means that unless the fight is undertuned on mythic that if your raid is not optimized it could mean additional dozens of hours of tedious and unnecessary wiping.

    It's probably around 10-20% of active subs and ranked pvpers are a smaller segment but they are similarly impacted by this high level design choice.
    I dont understand the dilema...
    Whats the dilema here? Can someone explain me?

    Min maxers are going to min max...AND? So? Whats the problem?

    What exactly are people asking out of blizzard? There is nothing that can be done about this.

  20. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    I dont understand the dilema...
    Whats the dilema here? Can someone explain me?

    Min maxers are going to min max...AND? So? Whats the problem?

    What exactly are people asking out of blizzard? There is nothing that can be done about this.
    The funny thing is, min-maxing implies all else equal. As in, everyone is equally as good as the mythic or heroic parse they're comparing against, are comfortable in that regard, and have the time to acquire the gear for swapping regarding bosses. Not many people are as good as the top-parsing raiders. I definitely am not.

    I still parse though. I like to see potential maximum DPS. Does that mean I'm going to go the best build if I'm much more comfortable on another build? Or does that mean I'll choose x Covenant because the skill it gives boosts my DPS by 1k? Probably not.

    Blizzard just has to differentiate choices better. Maybe one Covenant is better for AoE. Maybe one is better for Single Target. Maybe one is better for your healing spec. Maybe one is better for your tank spec. If they do this, yes, Mythic raiders will be pretty pissed having to do every Covenant to have access to them, if that's even how it works. Otherwise, all of us plebs will be enjoying choosing our Covenant based on the content we do most.

    You'll always get the elitists who won't let you in a dungeon because you don't have a certain Covenant, or hell, because you're a certain class. Bring the player, not the class needs to be a thing via balance, and Blizzard falls short here sometimes. We can only hope the class and skill balance works out well, or is at least varied enough so it's FUN. If a skill is less DPS but FUN AS HELL, good luck choosing...

    People forget that raid parsing isn't the same as dungeon parsing, or PvP, or doing old content, or doing the new Tower. If people can't see that not every skill has to be about top DPS, then they're not understanding what the World of Warcraft is. It's not WORK. It's fun. Yes, I know the irony via my name

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