There's no choice in Covenants - they will be min-maxed anyway

[Tradu]

Except having a better option "out there" is not hurting you?
You simply made a choice in a RPG.

Thats like me saying
"I picked Demon Hunter as my class, therefore i cant beat rogues....therefore Blizzard is hurting me....i should be as powerul as a Warrior, the class that can beat rogues"

I made my choice.
I picked Demon Hunter therefore i lose to rogues. Case closed, because its a RPG and is driven by "choice"

Choices have ups and downs.

Basically you are asking to never be "gimped" by a choice you made in a RPG.
You are asking to never be gimped by a choice you've made.

We already have that choice with our class. There's no need to add more of those choices on top. There's 12 classes(with 36 total specs), that's more than enough already.

[huth]

Except they don't have to remove it. Just make it not work in places where min/maxing is relevant, because it sounds like a horrible system for people who want to play optimally.

It's time they learn you can't always play optimally.

[DrayygoSham]

Or it doesn't.

At any rate even with that Mirror is hopelessly shit in PvE and to add insult to injury the utility ability is basically a worse Blink on huge CD.

Okay - where do you base your opinion that it doesnt? We had an ability that worked almost the same, which got removed. And that ability did hit the maintarget as well. So from a logical point of view it is far more likely to just be a redesigned Frostbomb - which then proves my point in it being the better overall choice (mixing AoE and ST)

- - - Updated - - -

Or just make the Covenant abilities not usable in mythic raids and m+. Problem solved.
You're misunderstanding the issue a lot of us have with the Covenant system. Blizzard says we can chose which one we want but the problem becomes that on the one hand you want to join the covenant you like the most based on the looks and gear but on the other you also want to be the best you can be for your raid/dungeon group. If the differences were minuscule it wouldn't matter too much I guess but we all know there's bound to be an ability that's too good to pass up.

Exactly. The best idea for problems you create yourself (by example, feeling "forced" into a specific covenant) is taking away stuff from the endgame for all players. thats literally the most selfished thing i´ve read so far in this thread

[brt2pp]

Well since you so rudely came in when a discussion was being held between me and someone else ABOUT class talents, then quoted me obviously towards your context which wasn’t being discussed at that time, then yes. I can see how you would be confused. Try in the future to make a point on your own and not piggy back a conversation that you clearly have no background or knowledge of.*hint* this suggestion makes you look less stupid.

i would suggest you to be nicer and more civil to people, so you might not get banned again and embarass youreself here. if you want to make one on one conversation then pm's are a way to do that. it wasn't beeing discussed by you, now i see that, but that only makes it more confusing to me what are you doing discussing irrelevant to thread things ? maybe next time try to not derail threads so people won't think you are a huge dusche ? *hint* :3

[MasterOfNone]

i would suggest you to be nicer and more civil to people, so you might not get banned again and embarass youreself here. if you want to make one on one conversation then pm's are a way to do that. it wasn't beeing discussed by you, now i see that, but that only makes it more confusing to me what are you doing discussing irrelevant to thread things ? maybe next time try to not derail threads so people won't think you are a huge dusche ? *hint* :3

it was being discussed for start. go back and read. i know its not easy to understand for some, but its there. i wont do footwork for you when i know its there. you werent even IN the discussion so there is that. its not derailing at all. min/max was being discussed for covenant AND specs. second, im not banned? lol i have no clue what you are talking about. i dont get banned. i cant say that ive never had an infraction because thats not true. finally, your response goes to show that you literally have nothing clever to add to EITHER discussion, so you resort to this post scolding me when i corrected you for your ignorace.

lets look at it the way it went down summarized. maybe this will help. read it a couple times so it kinda sinks in ya know.

me and another poster were having a conversation about min maxing spec/talents
you interrupt with whatever nonsense you spouted about something or other
i corrected you and said you werent even in said discussion and you need to read before posting
you reply with this post

should clear it up. any more questions, feel free to browse the pages for yourself. just take your time tho mate. i know how frustrating comprehension can be for some.

[Seradi]

Kael'Thas is in the Vampire Covenant, therefore I will be in the Vampire Covenant.

It’s really this simple.

Kael and Vampires > what will most likely be a negligible dps difference

[Cosmic Janitor]

It’s really this simple.

Kael and Vampires > what will most likely be a negligible dps difference

Taking a look at the mage skill they have.. they better have some insane passives, because using that in an actual encounter will be quite the challenge compared to the others.

[Khrux]

Not worried about this at all after watching the interview Bae/Preach did with Ion.

The sum of your active skill, utility skill, passive talents and soulbind effects will make it a less obvious choice which is simple better mathematically.

Its not about just active skill from X is > active skill from Y. So you're spamming a 30 page thread based on seeing 1 active for each class from one covenant and missing the other 36 actives and all 12 soulbinds and their respective talent trees.

[Draenosh]

who people thinks that they had at least one choice in their entire lifetime
imo there was some minmaxing in every aspect of life always
we are always trying to find the best option, so does we have a real choice?
i dont think so, please let blizzard give us at least “fake” feeling of choose

[Charge me Doctor]

This was when you only needed one of each class. (And even then, most guilds don't require that at all, and only had a couple people who need to swap.)

The suggestion was that people would level multiple of one class just to get the covenant bonus that's best for each boss for their class, on top of feeling like they need multiple classes for the best-per-boss situation. Which I just don't believe at all. Even presuming the Covenant abilities are rotation-changing abilities (unlikely to begin with), they will be balanced such that no ability is completely useless in any given scenario. The minor percentages of increase you'll get will much more easily be switched via whatever switch method they end up creating, rather than creating an entirely new character and gearing it up.

Will world first-ers do it? Probably, because it's easier to get some other flunky to level the character and gear it for you than it is to gear it yourself or to play the game to get the currency to switch covenants. But world first-ers ALWAYS screw themselves on game mechanics just to get a minor boost. Blizzard literally cannot plan for this, and honestly shouldn't, because everyone else loses out on fun game mechanics because world first-ers and their flunkys who keep following them no matter what stupid thing they're going to do next ruin it for them.

I used to do that in classic and tbc, before dual-spec became a thing. I had a pvp mage and pve mage. My close friend from a guild had 3 paladins - one for each spec. I'm trying to say that it's not something new for people to level multiple characters and use them, even of the same class. I personally doubt that covenant bonus will worth the hustle of juggling multiple characters there is simply no way that you'll be required to have best covenant abilities per boss - in a case like this you just grab cookie cutter covenant that will give benefits in all encounters, instead of being niche pick for specific encounters.

[Vandren]

The worst part is when Blizzard monkey with the numbers for the skills down the line (and you just know that will) what is best could change from patch to patch. And with changing Covenants being a monumental pain by design, that is one hell of a potential problem down the road.

[The Butt Witch]

I for one am going Necrolords, and don't give a shit about a 0.1% better bonus from another covenant.

[Augusta138]

Haven't made up my mind yet which covenant i will choose.

However i highly doubt the choice will influence m+ or raiding except for the 1% world first crowd.

Even atm with essenced i can compete in m+ by missing out on 2 essences because i just cant be bothered to get them on the alt i play for m+.

I still get groups for +12s - +15s without anyone ever bothering about certain essences, aslong as i pull my weight it is all fine.

[crazyman2]

Min maxing and having group issues is definitely a thing, I've been kicked out of raids at least twice and also removed from a guild raid team for playing Destruction at times when Aff was preferred spec. All of the players who removed me were complete garbage for other reasons, but it does hamper your ability to get a group.

[Azadina]

Personally, I'm picking whichever appeals to me most. Will see which it'll be. My choice might be swayed by flavor of single ability over another, the general appeal of the covenant compared to others, or transmog piece. Anything that isn't min/maxing pretty much. Most who enslave themselves to min/maxing can get 10-20% better performance simply by playing better, rather than worrying about 1% difference between covenant choices for example. In short, they are worrying about the wrong thing to min/max. That's their choice though, but complaining about "no real choice" is bunch of nonsense.

[Velerios]

Min maxing and having group issues is definitely a thing, I've been kicked out of raids at least twice and also removed from a guild raid team for playing Destruction at times when Aff was preferred spec. All of the players who removed me were complete garbage for other reasons, but it does hamper your ability to get a group.

Yes, because they are idiots who think that a 1% difference in strenght would change everything about them. Someone who plays a spec that does not make fun does make less dps. But hey, they are the elite... at least they think. 99% of these people does not need anything at all, just good players, but because they are not good players, always others are at fault, blaming them because of gear/spec/whatever.

[Sangfoudre]

That's exactly what they're saying. Also, only a tiny majority plays Blood Elves, because they are not the optimal race for every class.

I'm not sure I've read you right, but correct me if I'm wrong.
Belves are the most played race. A fifth of all level 120 chars are Belves. As for the optimization, they are great for some classes (dps wise) and have a strong utility in MM+/PvP and the females arouse every virgin (so a whole bunch of players).

[Madscientist]

People will take the one with the mathematically best skills and that's it. I don't get why Blizzard thinks this gives choice to the players. It absolutely does not. Especially with this 'you can only choose one, so choose wisely' crap. This will only make me look up a guide on what's providing the best DPS/HPS/Utility.

Am I missing something here or is this system a really dumb idea?

Nope. not missing anything really. Funny how they removed old talent trees, yet they come up with this piece of crap along with the current talents which will also be min-maxed.

[Gaidax]

Taking a look at the mage skill they have.. they better have some insane passives, because using that in an actual encounter will be quite the challenge compared to the others.

This is what I'm talking about, I don't know where this 1% meme came from, but just from that particular example I have hard time believing covenants will be within 1% of each other.

Why if they'd be 5% within each other, I'd be impressed. You can bet your ass that every class will have at least one covenant that's simply a no-go the same way Venthyr appears to be for mages. Unless you like doing double digit % less damage that is. Heck, even something like 7% difference will be pushing it.

[mojojojo202]

Of course it will be mun/maxed, everything in WoW is because there are a huge pool of players stupid enough to think they are just that 0.001% dps advantage from some particular set up away from being a world first raider.