There's no choice in Covenants - they will be min-maxed anyway

[Cosmic Janitor]

This is what I'm talking about, I don't know where this 1% meme came from, but just from that particular example I have hard time believing covenants will be within 1% of each other.

Why if they'd be 5% within each other, I'd be impressed. You can bet your ass that every class will have at least one covenant that's simply a no-go the same way Venthyr appears to be for mages. Unless you like doing double digit % less damage that is. Heck, even something like 7% difference will be pushing it.

I mean they coud still easily change the skill, but from a demonstration PoV, it's clearly a very PvP centric skill or only usable against casters which severely limits it's use. If I were to make a presentation and show something like that I would only do so if it's my intention to show how different and thematic I can be with this system, so the crass difference is probably intended. The Kyrian skill is clearly single target centric, wheres the night fae one is heavily AoE centric but due to the haste still very much usable in ST. To compensate this with passives will be a challenge to say the least, I agree.

Even besides the 1% meme, alot of people flat out underestimate the raiding climate. I've been in all kinds of guilds and there is usually a minimum level of effort that is expected of you, even if you just try to raid heroic. Peer pressure is a thing and even if you yourself don't min-max, others do. Constantly getting called out for throwing away DPS because of poor choices is annoying as hell and won't exactly earn you favors in your guild/raid. Many of the weaker players have for years followed guides by better players and made it practically law that you have to play a certain way. Expecting, in some kind of grand delusion, that this time will be different seems naive to say the least. The reality is alot of people will be pigeonholed into certain covenants depending on what they usually do or try to achieve. I see that being especially true for the competitive crowd, including MDI and Arena, but even the more casual players will be affected by it, even if the WQ-raiders here are desparate to deny that.

[Bigby]

That's exactly what they're saying. Also, only a tiny majority plays Blood Elves, because they are not the optimal race for every class.

Blood Elves are literally the most played race in the game. According to RealmPop, they're almost 20% of all 120's.

[KaPe]

Blood Elves are literally the most played race in the game. According to RealmPop, they're almost 20% of all 120's.

I'm not sure I've read you right, but correct me if I'm wrong.
Belves are the most played race. A fifth of all level 120 chars are Belves. As for the optimization, they are great for some classes (dps wise) and have a strong utility in MM+/PvP and the females arouse every virgin (so a whole bunch of players).

Naw, that can't be. After all, they aren't the most optimal choice for all classes - and according to this topic, people will only choose the best option, without ever considering aestethics. Why would they settle for something that's not the best, but looks more appealing to them? This does not happen... according to some people, who already declared Covenants pointless.

[Sangfoudre]

Naw, that can't be. After all, they aren't the most optimal choice for all classes - and according to this topic, people will only choose the best option, without ever considering aestethics. Why would they settle for something that's not the best, but looks more appealing to them? This does not happen... according to some people, who already declared Covenants pointless.

Ok it was sarcasm (I skipped like 10 pages).
Race is (imho) harder to fast change than essence or prolly covenants.
We don't have the breakdown of race/class for belves and races/classes combo have changed/been expaded a few times.

[KaPe]

Ok it was sarcasm (I skipped like 10 pages).
Race is (imho) harder to fast change than essence or prolly covenants.
We don't have the breakdown of race/class for belves and races/classes combo have changed/been expaded a few times.

I'm pretty sure sims take racials into account, including passive and actives. I *could* be wrong, since I play a healer so sims aren't nearly as useful, but I really doubt it's not the case - seems pretty simple to math out.

Also, judging by the way Covenants were talked about, changing them is something you might do once a tier, if that. Perhaps on the level of buying a specic mythic Azerite piece. Sure, unlike race change, it's free, but people supposedly obssesed with perfomance wouldn't mind dropping few bucks if it's supposedly so crucial to mythic raiding. And yet it seems like it isn't.

Granted, if Covenant spells will be truly imbalanced, it will affect the population, but I doubt it will get that bad. There's more than one knob to turn, since they could buff Soulbinds to compensate.

[Sangfoudre]

I'm pretty sure sims take racials into account, including passive and actives. I *could* be wrong, since I play a healer so sims aren't nearly as useful, but I really doubt it's not the case - seems pretty simple to math out.

Also, judging by the way Covenants were talked about, changing them is something you might do once a tier, if that. Perhaps on the level of buying a specic mythic Azerite piece. Sure, unlike race change, it's free, but people supposedly obssesed with perfomance wouldn't mind dropping few bucks if it's supposedly so crucial to mythic raiding. And yet it seems like it isn't.

Granted, if Covenant spells will be truly imbalanced, it will affect the population, but I doubt it will get that bad. There's more than one knob to turn, since they could buff Soulbinds to compensate.

Sims take racials into account, only with a DPS approach.
But racials are not only about sims, PvP and MM+ appreciate some good racials (like the one Belves have) without impacting sims.
For Belves, 65% of them are Paladins, DH, mage or DK. Sims show that Belves are either optimal or the only one class for these specs.

I stated earlier that, at some point, a best Covenant for each spec/usage table will pop out on the internet.
I'm sure that it will not affect 98% of players but I'm also sure that best raiders/MM+ers/PvPers will take that into account the same way they can made their mates change faction twice in a day just to get a 415 ilevel object or change race to get that 0.2% dps provided by troll racials.

[FlasKamel]

I like the choice, not really caring about min-maxing at all. You'll always find people willing to play with you either way, and if you're hardcore enough for it to matter I don't really see why you care about the choice either way. You can still make more casual a choice on your alts.

[Beefhammer]

I like the choice, not really caring about min-maxing at all. You'll always find people willing to play with you either way, and if you're hardcore enough for it to matter I don't really see why you care about the choice either way. You can still make more casual a choice on your alts.

This is the best. Most of these people bitching would have always gone for the best option in regards to maximizing. Choice was never an option or concern for these people. It's rich. Just bitching to bitch. Like someone one else said in a different post I believe said that if we got too many feature the usually suspects would be here bitching about too many features. Fun note, WotLK had just as many real features as SL.

[roahn the warlock]

Blizzard bending backwards for the 1% of ultra hardcore raiders who will adapt to whatever anyway is honestly what killed this game. "Oh uh, min maxers will pick the same talents every time, BETTER REMOVE ALL CHOICE FROM THE GAME" I'm so glad this is slowly being reversed.

[Voidism]

Blizzard bending backwards for the 1% of ultra hardcore raiders who will adapt to whatever anyway is honestly what killed this game. "Oh uh, min maxers will pick the same talents every time, BETTER REMOVE ALL CHOICE FROM THE GAME" I'm so glad this is slowly being reversed.

Yeah, I never understood their "subserviance" to them. Most people don't even raid at all. Most of us want to have fun.

[KaPe]

Yeah, I never understood their "subserviance" to them. Most people don't even raid at all. Most of us want to have fun.

I fail to see how any of those points are connected - well, beyond the usual "gotta insult them raiders". Blizzard has never offered as many out-of-raid activities and rewards as they do now. Plenty of people raid, on all kinds of difficulties. And last but not least, raiders want to have fun as well. Part of that is making sure the Covenants are somewhat balanced and all are viable choice. Not to the extent of being nearly the same - which where some people go way too far - but glaring imbalances will have to be ironed out before release.

Or do you honestly believe that raiders are the only ones capable of realizing that "ability X is pretty bad and I never use it, the one from vampires is way better"?

[Will]

Yes, because they are idiots who think that a 1% difference in strenght would change everything about them. Someone who plays a spec that does not make fun does make less dps. But hey, they are the elite... at least they think. 99% of these people does not need anything at all, just good players, but because they are not good players, always others are at fault, blaming them because of gear/spec/whatever.

Your comment makes no sense at all. If a spec is better, then it's better. If you take an equally skilled player, they'll perform better on the more powerful spec, regardless of if they're having fun or not.

Neither is 1% inconsiderable. It's the difference between downing a mythic boss or wiping on a couple hitpoints. And I'd know because I've had a few mythic boss wipes in both raids AND m+ on <1k hp.

[arandomuser]

True, but then again classes are permanent and long term, and most people arent forced to re roll to whatever the highest dps class is. Some specs arent the best specs in the games but you are still allowed to play them ( by some groups) I think overall people are more open minded and its mostly a mythic raiding guild thing which most players arent mythic raiders.

that being said i do plan to raid mythic and will pick whichever one does the best dps

[huth]

Your comment makes no sense at all. If a spec is better, then it's better. If you take an equally skilled player, they'll perform better on the more powerful spec, regardless of if they're having fun or not.

Neither is 1% inconsiderable. It's the difference between downing a mythic boss or wiping on a couple hitpoints. And I'd know because I've had a few mythic boss wipes in both raids AND m+ on <1k hp.

And how many times did you either wipe nowhere close or win with a considerable safe margin? Without that value, you don't know anything.