Shadowlands: Why So Mad?

[rebecca191]

I voted other because it is a few things

Sick of Sylvanas
Not excited about story and theme
Don't want a squish
Flying delayed again

Only raiding could possibly save it for me if it is very well done, but I'm in the ever shrinking pool of Alliance cutting edge mythic raiders and I will never play Horde, which doesn't give me much hope.

[nonameelf]

I don't want a faction merger. I just want to be able to group up with friends regardless of what race they are playing.

Blizzard is going to have to do something about the horrible raid imbalance between factions, but seems they just don't care enough yet.

[Teekey]

I don't want a faction merger. I just want to be able to group up with friends regardless of what race they are playing.

Blizzard is going to have to do something about the horrible raid imbalance between factions, but seems they just don't care enough yet.

Why would they care? They're making money forcing people to transfer to the faction with the healthier raid scene.

[Lex Icon]

not mad,not excited. i'm pretty sure lot's of people where expecting more though.

pretty sure this proves that the A/B team, every other xpac has to have a class stuff is'nt real so that's something.

[Zyrinx]

Other, because this needed to be multiple choice.

[Wildberry]

@Slowpoke is a Gamer

Because everything about this expansion looks like it sucks. I'll actually give an effortpost since my primary gripe isn't represented on the poll, but this would've been much better with the ability for users to pick multiple choices.

Let's start of with the fact that Shadowlands doesn't introduce a new class. This is, given the context of other features, completely unacceptable. Given that Shadowlands is (unfortunately) our "Death themed expansion" the window for Necromancers has closed, and that just further rubs salt in the wound.

People suggest that, because "Classes are being fixed," that this is okay. It's not, and it's incredible that we've hit the point where we have to choose between "New Class" or "Attempt to make the existing classes remotely palatable to play." As if the latter shouldn't be a baseline that any sensible person would take for granted

But this all hinges on the idea that classes are being fixed. I don't think they are. This is where I find the poll to be most lacking. There's no option for "I really wanted class changes, but am unhappy with the route they've taken."

Let's take a look at some of the sample abilities they've given back to us: Death Coil, Raise Dead, Heroic Throw, etc. Is it nice to have these things back? Sure. Is this going to save class design? No.

Rather than seeing a proper return to older class design systems, we now see them sprinkling a handful of abilities onto modern specs. They stated during the deep dive panel that they don't want to "disrupt" players.

Unfortunately, they disrupted those of us who liked Fury's old enrage mechanic. They disrupted 2h Frost players. They disrupted Sub Rogues and Survival Hunters. But instead of getting these issues fixed, we've basically received confirmation that the Legion-era class designs are here to stay. Rather than revert these redesigns, they're going to give us a minor round of unpruning and call it a day.

That's not good enough, and it completely misses the mark.

Elsewhere, we see class design continue in the wrong direction. Part of what makes modern class design so toxic is the role of Expansion Specific Auxiliary Progression Systems. Rather than throw those out entirely, we see them return again in the form of Covenants & Legendaries.

These systems aren't new. They have some new cosmetics tacked on, the progression system might differ, but we've already seen the meat of the feature.

Regarding Covenants specifically, what are Covenant Class and general abilities if not Essences? What are Soulbinds if not Azerite/Artifact Minor Traits?

These systems are bad in their current iteration. What changes now that they're reintroduced through a Reputation System rather than a secondary Experience Grind (Artifact & Azerite Power)?

Furthermore we see a return of something I was never a fan of at all: Legion Legendaries. The acquisition system has changed, they tell us, but again Legion Legendaries were a case where classes were designed under the impression that their gameplay would be modified heavily with outside items.

These things are inherently detrimental to classes, and their continuation tells me that class design isn't going in a direction that I would consider acceptable.

I've been a proponent for "Fixing Classes" since Warlords of Draenor launched. This isn't what I had in mind, and nothing we saw during the Deep Dive panel today fills me with any sort of confidence whatsoever.


I won't spend too much time on leveling, but I'm not a fan of the new leveling system. Forcing new players of all races into the same intro zone feels bland, and the fact that it serves as a "demo" of sorts just signals that we're moving away from Azeroth being a living breathing world, into a place where Azeroth is effectively just a lobby with outdated UI for actual "content" (Instanced PvE and PvP content). Forcing new players to go from 10-50 in BfA is another aspect I don't like. At all. And to top it all off, this seems to have poured cold water on the hopes for a new world revamp.

Naturally, they decided to continue systems that I've grown to detest (Hello, pathfinder department), so I don't even get a bit of good news there.

The story has become outright grotesque.

Rather than returning to the successful formula of "Sailing to a new continent," as Blizzard put it today, with an open, known enemy force waiting for us, we instead continue on the path of sloppy segues from one expansion into the next.

Rather than sailing to a new continent, we instead travel to a dimension that's only been alluded to here and there, and is in no way iconic in the sense that Outland and Northrend were.

Rather than having a clearly identified threat looming over us, like the Lich King and the Scourge, we're going to continue being left in the dark as to what Sylvanas' 4d chess strategy is, and unraveling the oh-so-gripping mystery of the Jailer. We have no clearly identified enemy, we're instead going up against some faceless, yet-to-be-revealed boogeymen of Sylvanas that have been made up on the spot.

Similarly, rather than pursuing Sylvanas with the full might of the Horde and Alliance (Similar in the manner to the way we fought against the Burning Legion, Illidari and Scourge in BC and WotLK), we're going to continue the trend of helping local denizens of wherever we're at contest these grand cosmological forces that are so big, they don't really resonate well.

To top it all off, we're continuing with this awful "Plans of cosmological forces" plot. It's dull, and it doesn't feel rooted in Azeroth at all. I can get excited about fighting the Scourge, I can get excited about fighting the Legion, or Naga, or Old Gods. I'm not remotely excited to find out why "The Light made a bargain with the enemy of all." It doesn't resonate, and it feels sloppily tacked onto a franchise that I actually like.

I was genuinely excited to see how, say, Outland, or Northrend would be built in World of Warcraft. Exploring these places was an enjoyable experience on its own. From seeing the foot of Icecrown's glacial spire, to fighting against all the awful things the Scourge cooked up for us was genuinely exciting.

I'm not remotely excited to work alongside recently invented races, to fight recently invented foes, in a recently invented place that exists in a dimension with descriptions that, prior to this reveal, wouldn't fill a page.

It's too grand, it's too detached, it's too new, and we've been kept in the dark for far too long regarding relevant plot points.

I could go on about my lack of excitement regarding "New customization options" (And detailing the amount of work that they managed to dodge with this system, it's really incredible, actually), or continue paragraph after paragraph of story gripes (I do have them. Does anyone feel confident that this writing team is going to do anything but butcher Kael'thas further). but instead I think I can boil things down very simply:


This expansion does not have features that excite me. It feels barebones. The story doesn't appeal to me at all. World of Warcraft started changing heavily with Cataclysm-era systems, but it felt like there was a clean break between "Old WoW" and "Nu-WoW' starting in WoD, which was unburdened by older systems which continued into Cataclysm and MoP. I do not like "Nu-WoW." I hated WoD, I hated Legion, I hated BfA.

Rather than recognizing this break, Shadowlands offers "fixes," alterations and content from within the framework of "Nu-WoW." I'm not remotely excited about this and I'm not planning on buying this expansion or even continuing to play retail WoW. It's beyond clear at this point that this game has evolved into something that I can't stand, and there's no chance of us going back to systems that I actually enjoy.

[Schmilblick]

Because It looks So Bad.

[Kyrian Warrior]

So yeah. People are mad. Not everyone mind you, only about 50%.

Did you count?

[therealbowser]

I voted that I'm "mad" because of no Tinkers, which isn't technically false, but I'm not mad about Shadowlands about it. I think Shadowlands is very promising. Surprisingly so. They are actually listening and making changes to make the game better instead of trying to milk WoW dry. This could be a really good expansion.

It would be more accurate to say I'm mad that we have Demon Hunters, a class that is no longer relevant and probably never will be again, and doesn't really have hardly anything interesting about it except for "being like Illidan", and could be the last class we have because Blizzard is concerned about balance or something else (we don't know for sure), instead of Tinkers which would have filled a gap that was critically missing -- a tech class, in a game universe where technology plays such a massive role.

Whatever. I don't even hold Demon Hunters or Legion responsible here, but it's shitty that we've waited for our turn (even though it should have been before Demon Hunters) and now they got passed up. Maybe next expansion, maybe not. Even shittier for people that wanted Necromancers, though, because after this expansion we can basically confirm that they will never be a playable class ever.

On the plus side, they may be holding Tinkers back for a steampunk setting expansion. I mean, I can't see that happening but I would love if against all odds it did. Well, who knows.

[Watchers]

I voted that I'm "mad" because of no Tinkers, which isn't technically false, but I'm not mad about Shadowlands about it. I think Shadowlands is very promising. Surprisingly so. They are actually listening and making changes to make the game better instead of trying to milk WoW dry. This could be a really good expansion.

It would be more accurate to say I'm mad that we have Demon Hunters, a class that is no longer relevant and probably never will be again, and doesn't really have hardly anything interesting about it except for "being like Illidan", and could be the last class we have because Blizzard is concerned about balance or something else (we don't know for sure), instead of Tinkers which would have filled a gap that was critically missing -- a tech class, in a game universe where technology plays such a massive role.

Whatever. I don't even hold Demon Hunters or Legion responsible here, but it's shitty that we've waited for our turn (even though it should have been before Demon Hunters) and now they got passed up. Maybe next expansion, maybe not. Even shittier for people that wanted Necromancers, though, because after this expansion we can basically confirm that they will never be a playable class ever.

On the plus side, they may be holding Tinkers back for a steampunk setting expansion. I mean, I can't see that happening but I would love if against all odds it did. Well, who knows.

lol dont compare DEMON HUNTERS to tinkers... demon hunter is warcraft lore, tinkers is something you gnomes made up an ilussion

[Three Faced Goddess]

1. The cinematic has depressed me. Not exaggerating and I have trouble with depression anyway. The only thing that will redeem the expansion for me is if we restore the Lich King and the Helm of Domination. Nothing else. Even Dark Rangers wouldn't redeem it. Screw Blizzard for wrecking the Lich King and wanking it to Sylvanas.

[Kuze]

This expansion is half amazing and half awful.

The good:
+ Torghast (conceptually)
+ Class design (conceptually)
+ Legendaries returning
+++ They won't be RNG drops
+ Less RNG, for example the weekly chest will be "here's some items, pick one of them" instead of "here's your disenchant for the week"
+ More customization for races, be the character you really want to be.

The bad:
- Faction divide staying; alliance horrible for recruiting for Mythic raiding
- Besides DK, no class/race restrictions lifted
--- Which means those customization changes don't let you "be who you want to be" due to race restrictions (also the faction divide)
- Flying still the awful "wait 18 months to fly in initial zones"
-(?) Covenant balancing worries me way too much between all the power you gain from them and how they'll be balanced between 3 other choices. What about picking the one I want vs the one for min-maxing? (MAX difference should be around .5% for the majority of the time; more than that and I'm pretty pissed)
- No new class or race at launch, nor new specs, nor even "large class changes"
--- Which means those awful buffs/debuffs from BfA are probably here to stay
- No major content announced outside of Covenants and Torghast

The ???:
? How will mounts/flight work for 10-50?
? Are we keeping Heirlooms?

This is pretty bang on. People need to chill out on the we don't need any xxx. Of course we don't need shit, but we want a new class, we want new races, there's nothing wrong with wanting new things.

- - - Updated - - -

1. The cinematic has depressed me. Not exaggerating and I have trouble with depression anyway. The only thing that will redeem the expansion for me is if we restore the Lich King and the Helm of Domination. Nothing else. Even Dark Rangers wouldn't redeem it. Screw Blizzard for wrecking the Lich King and wanking it to Sylvanas.

How did they ruin anything? Sylvanas is on some op shit, powered by who knows what, might not even be her in the end. Bolivar hasn't done anything but threaten people since he took over the throne. BOLVAR IS NOT ARTHAS. He was reluctant to take the crown. Arthas grabbed that shit, look past your nostalgia. The story is fine

[Cuddleheart]

Much like everyone else, I'm not mad but I'm super disappointed. Every other expansion had features that made me excited. Honestly, the biggest feature of Shadowlands seems to be getting out of BFA and new appearance options. I didn't even need a new class to be more stoked on Shadowlands. I would have been happy with a revamp of the old world or that cosmetic class skin idea that was floating was neat. Anything other than just new land and new story.

[Gigantique]

Voted Class design because that's the biggest gripe, but my surprisng first time being anything but hyped at an expansion reveal is because of many things. Sylvanas-fatigue, especially in her "It was my plan all along!" victories and her tainting the awesome concept of the Shadowlands was the nail in the coffin for my interest in lore, and I was always the huge lore nerd when it came to Warcraft.

I didn't mind many of the Legion class designs (barring survival hunter, may it rest in peace), but not a single of the classes I've played felt anything but worse going from geared Legion to geared BfA, and them not introducing a new fresh class to experience Shadowlands through OR redesigning classes we have into something better to experience it with, is a glaring issue to me. I can't enjoy seeing your amazing content if my vessel for doing so feels like garbage to use. F for Marksmanship Hunters.

I could be wrong, but everything Ion said sounds like lawyer-dodging to me.
>No Artifact Grind, but we will put that grind behind Covenants now, so same same but different.
>No Heart of Azeroth Essences, but lookie here, the Covenants need to be grinded to unlock abilities!

I actually never minded Pathfinder before, but it's starting to become a bit stale now. BfA had some of the best looking armor sets in-game for season 1 and 2, so that was a pretty nice hook. I always liked the faction war as a concept. so that was fine too (but quickly ruined by the god-awful plot of BfA), and the classes felt pretty damn good in Legion, so I got hyped. That was quickly smothered the deeper into BfA I played, and so many of my toons just became a slog to reach lvl 120 with because they just felt so much worse to play. The 4-5 armor sets in Shadowlands so far look pretty lackluster too, maybe barring the skeletal one.

I can't build hype to "reset" in Shadowlands with these classes. So I'll wait patiently until I can observe them in-action, because I'll be damned before I take the word of Blizz again.

I also need to point out that Classic, the 15-year old carbon copy of original WoW, has quivers while retail has one specific quiver bound to one particular transmog for one particular spec "forcing" you to mog like and elf. I want quivers damn you.

[SirCowdog]

Oh, great, they're giving me back what they have taken. What an amazing "feature"! I am so happy!

I think this quote sums the situation up PERFECTLY!

I mean, blizzard selling back to us things we used to have. How is that supposed to be a good situation? That's just a masterful scam.

[La]

I think this quote sums the situation up PERFECTLY!

I mean, blizzard selling back to us things we used to have. How is that supposed to be a good situation? That's just a masterful scam.

Yeah, but they're also giving you some super cool, totally not azerite abilities, abilities, too

[Shaetha]

So yeah. People are mad. Not everyone mind you, only about 50%. I hear it in basically every thread here, someone going off about how Shadowlands is a "filler expansion," how the "cycle is broken," or outright making "I quit" posts.

I know we've all been there in the past with expansions, most of us that was us 2 years ago. Though I'm curious for some data on why people are mad. Is it just a shotgun of issues or is there one specific thing people are mad about most of all? So I've trolled a few threads, gathered up some complaints I've seen leveled, and put them in a poll!

You only get one answer though because I want to see why you're the most mad. What one thing is so egregious that you're willing to unsubscribe for two years? Or at the very least grumble about it until 9.1 and then come back to whack the Sylvanas Loot Pinata.

The same shit happens every time.

- - - Updated - - -

No features that are worth to be called features. Covenants are reputations plus Azerite essences, Torghast is Island Expeditions in a Mage Tower style. Besides that there's nothing worth to be called a feature.

(I like craftable legendaries and more customization but that's not worth to be called an expansion feature)

Literally everything is "thing + thing". This is not an argument.

[glowpipe]

Its a simple fact. People are mad becuase they can be mad. Its just human nature. People who actually don't like the game, they ignore it and move on. The people screaming the laudest about "how shit it is" does so just to get off by the replies.

Im not talking about actual feedback here. But the countless "this is shit" and "blizzard is official dead" and all those bullshit answers, not talking about any actual problems what so ever

[Melsiren]

I am looking forward to Shadowlands.

But I think the announcement was underwhelming.

[Th3Scourge]

Lol 50%

Maybe like 5% of whiners that whine no matter what.

Waaaa I didn’t get a new class I’m gonna cry
Waaaa I didn’t get a 4th spec I’m gonna cry
Waaaa Bolvar lost to god-tier Sylvanas I’m gonna cry

Unpruning the classes is a MASSIVE step in the right direction. Having anti-magic zone for M+ utility is going to be great, amongst others