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  1. #221
    Stood in the Fire
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    I think what Blizzard needs to do is look at various talents that help make the different specs unique from one another and make those talents baseline, then add in stuff around that core gameplay.

    Some examples:
    —Protection should get Holy Shield baseline. Not only is that talent so powerful that it's not even a choice for it's row, but it's one of the few abilities that Protection Paladins have that is distinct from every other tank spec. Warriors have Critical Block baseline. Brewmaster Monks have Stagger baseline. Paladins should have Holy Shield baseline.

    —Retribution should get Divine Purpose baseline. That talent is SO much fun from a gameplay perspective; the Legion era gameplay where the Grand Crusader ring gave you Divine Purpose for free was among my favorite times to be a Retribution Paladin because getting long chains of Templar's Verdict / Divine Storm is FUN. Along similar lines, Wake of Ashes should be baseline. Considering that Retribution has trouble sustaining Holy Power in general (especially compared to Legion's gameplay), nothing has competed with that talent for all of BFA. Plus the fantasy of a frontal cone-slash that shoots Holy Fire everywhere is AWESOME.

    —In short, if a talent is so good that there's never a reason to not select it, it should either be removed or made baseline.

    I also think that Blizzard needs to really deep-dive into some of the abilities they've pruned and figure out ways they can make them feel good. For example, auras were iconic to paladins in Classic and Burning Crusade, sure, but they were pretty much fire-and-forget. As Protection, you used Devotion Aura for personal defense and Aura of Light for threat (in Wrath especially, there was a weird interaction for a bit where healing from Aura of Light generated threat so you could toggle it on, heal the raid, and watch all the enemies try to punch you for no effort). What I'm saying is that I don't want auras back as things I choose between if there's no actual choice. Rather, I'd like to see Blessings come back as a thing for all specs (rather than be Retribution exclusive). I think that if buffs were handled on a class-by-class basis (like how all monks bring the physical damage debuff) we'd be encouraged to bring every class, but have flexibility in which roles we brought.

  2. #222
    Dreadlord Pigglix's Avatar
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    Honestly i just wish they cut the holy power generators cd by half or at least make crusader striker either without cd or make it be a 3 sec cd baseline.

    I hope with consecration being baseline, it keeps the 1 holy power generator and im curious to see what will replace the talent, same for hammer of wrath baseline, but still..with a 20 sec cd on it, it wont help to speed up the spec rotation.

    Even with 22% base haste + inquistion, there are periods of time where i just sit there waiting for a good 2-3 secs without nothing to press.

    making fire of justice be baseline would be awesome too. And that charge paladins had in the earlier Legion beta(alpha?)

    I think, ret paladins are the only melee without a real gap closer.

    So basicly, my wishes for Ret shadowlands are:

    - Remove the cd from crusader striker or make it really short or bake the fires of justice on it baseline

    - Wake of ashes baseline

    - A charge ability (like the legion one)

    - Maybe reduce the cd from the others Hpower gen too?
    - Would love to see Divine Purpose as baseline aswell, imo WoD ret pally was the best interaction of the class, it was proc everywhere, the spec didnt felt slow. MoP was really great too pace wise once you pumped the haste.

    - Since consceration and hammer will be gone from talents, maybe make the free divine storm proc into a talent? Would hate to lose it once we get rid of the azerite neck...but...if blizz speed up ret rotation, i may be alright to not have that talent/ ability from neck anymore

    - Remove the "divine steed" spell and give us the "speed of light" spell, it was so much more cooler than the horsie imo.

    And i think that's all i wish for ret. Prot and Holy i cant speak much since i dont play with them, but i would love to see holy shield baseline for prot and the old sound of hammer of the righteous back.
    Last edited by Pigglix; 2020-01-06 at 06:17 AM.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Somewhatconcerned View Post
    Seals

    And a better judgement animation.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The WoD seal talent was actually quite fun, just really underpowered.
    Its was realy strong my friend.
    The reaply on seals was maybe confusing for alot of players, but the hot and haste were already very strong.

    They maybe should have gone for 2 seals and leave the slow from the seals, but its never coming back I think.

  4. #224
    Biggest shadowlands change for Paladins so far is warriors getting shattering throw back. Get ready to be wrecked boys.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhozul View Post
    I think what Blizzard needs to do is look at various talents that help make the different specs unique from one another and make those talents baseline, then add in stuff around that core gameplay.

    Some examples:
    —Protection should get Holy Shield baseline. Not only is that talent so powerful that it's not even a choice for it's row, but it's one of the few abilities that Protection Paladins have that is distinct from every other tank spec. Warriors have Critical Block baseline. Brewmaster Monks have Stagger baseline. Paladins should have Holy Shield baseline.

    —Retribution should get Divine Purpose baseline. That talent is SO much fun from a gameplay perspective; the Legion era gameplay where the Grand Crusader ring gave you Divine Purpose for free was among my favorite times to be a Retribution Paladin because getting long chains of Templar's Verdict / Divine Storm is FUN. Along similar lines, Wake of Ashes should be baseline. Considering that Retribution has trouble sustaining Holy Power in general (especially compared to Legion's gameplay), nothing has competed with that talent for all of BFA. Plus the fantasy of a frontal cone-slash that shoots Holy Fire everywhere is AWESOME.

    —In short, if a talent is so good that there's never a reason to not select it, it should either be removed or made baseline.

    I also think that Blizzard needs to really deep-dive into some of the abilities they've pruned and figure out ways they can make them feel good. For example, auras were iconic to paladins in Classic and Burning Crusade, sure, but they were pretty much fire-and-forget. As Protection, you used Devotion Aura for personal defense and Aura of Light for threat (in Wrath especially, there was a weird interaction for a bit where healing from Aura of Light generated threat so you could toggle it on, heal the raid, and watch all the enemies try to punch you for no effort). What I'm saying is that I don't want auras back as things I choose between if there's no actual choice. Rather, I'd like to see Blessings come back as a thing for all specs (rather than be Retribution exclusive). I think that if buffs were handled on a class-by-class basis (like how all monks bring the physical damage debuff) we'd be encouraged to bring every class, but have flexibility in which roles we brought.
    I agree with this pretty much. Auras though need to be treated as they are now personally and can be used as a "cool down" type of effect imo.

  6. #226
    Like if i wanted to elaborate on things that ret just needs baseline based on what has been mentioned earlier
    -Wake of Ashes
    -Divine Purpose
    -The Fires of Justice

    Luckily Hammer of Wrath and Consecration are going to be baseline so there is that.

    The reasoning is such proc/rng talents and abilities are VERY fun but if you see how things have simmed all expansion they fall behind talents like Inquisition or Crusade depending on what is going on, or fall behind Blade of Wrath or Hammer of Wrath. Fun options that lessen the downtime that can probably cause fun procs to happen are nice. But not at the expense of talent points.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulthane View Post
    Like if i wanted to elaborate on things that ret just needs baseline based on what has been mentioned earlier
    -Wake of Ashes
    -Divine Purpose
    -The Fires of Justice

    Luckily Hammer of Wrath and Consecration are going to be baseline so there is that.

    The reasoning is such proc/rng talents and abilities are VERY fun but if you see how things have simmed all expansion they fall behind talents like Inquisition or Crusade depending on what is going on, or fall behind Blade of Wrath or Hammer of Wrath. Fun options that lessen the downtime that can probably cause fun procs to happen are nice. But not at the expense of talent points.
    I know people will hate me for that (because rng), but I think the minor effect of Memory of Lucid Dreams would suit ret.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by ExiHext View Post
    I know people will hate me for that (because rng), but I think the minor effect of Memory of Lucid Dreams would suit ret.
    I agree tbh its a nice minor.

  9. #229
    Immortal Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xudomus View Post
    EDIT: Damn, beat me to it, lol



    I mean, for people that just don't like to keep track of HoPo as a UI element. I think they could do cooldown ret, and just have the abilities that generated holy power instead reduce the CDs on the abilities proportional to the amount of HoPo they provided before. Exactly the same gameplay, same casts per min of finishers, but now they can say "We removed holy power!" and all the memers can be satisfied
    So what is the difference then? If you want it to play the exact same way why should the change anything? The extra little bar enrages you so much that you can handle the spec because of it?

    It sounds like all you're doing is hating HoPo for hates sake, if you want the class to play exactly the same if they got rid of HoPo then there is really no point getting rid of HoPo. Unless you're trying to say you aren't capable of concentrating enough to make sure you don't overcap HoPo...then that is player error and maybe you'd be better fit playing a class that doesn't need any resource management and you can spam away.

    Sounds like a casting class that needs zero mana management is best for you...
    Hope, the greatest power of all!

    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  10. #230
    I feel like I am in the minority who enjoys having holy power on Ret, and I have been playing it since wrath launch.

  11. #231
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
    Replace it with some more similar to Maelstrom that the shamans have, call it Zeal or something similar, and voilá you now have more modularity over what you actually do in a rotation and what you can do, on top of the devs having greater control over resource modifying talents impacting combat flow.
    Slap the ol' Divine Storm proc from T10/WoD and you get something that feels a lot better to play.
    Maelstrom made me quit shamans. I'd quit paladin too.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Player Eleven View Post
    Maelstrom made me quit shamans. I'd quit paladin too.
    Yeah, give me back the good old days of popping defensives to get a dps increase!

  13. #233
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisuke42 View Post
    I feel like I am in the minority who enjoys having holy power on Ret, and I have been playing it since wrath launch.
    I'm okay with it. What I'd like is for the devs to roll back on all the other classes having similar systems. Not every damned class needs to be a build-and-spend class.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    I'm okay with it. What I'd like is for the devs to roll back on all the other classes having similar systems. Not every damned class needs to be a build-and-spend class.
    BUT... ret could be the ONE that actually manages mana in their dps rotation cause ya know... they are a mana user not combo points.
    And its balance fairly easily heal you spend mana and have less access to dps abilities
    Seal to help restore mana doing less damage ofc similar to hunter when they has aspect of viper i know they had that seal or judgement w/e b4
    "I'm Tru @ w/e I do" ~ TM

  15. #235
    all i want is my pre 7.0 holy paly back i hate this meele healing style so mutch
    BFA Season 3


  16. #236
    As prot paladin I can't say I miss much from the past.
    Seals were annoying in the way that if you died you had to put your seals back. I did enjoy switching seals but I think today's gameplay is too fastpaced to allow to burn a GCD to just switch a seal.
    Auras were annoying the way that people forgot to switch to something useful. I do miss sometimes having people run as fast as me when they're in my aura, but that's about it. Maybe protection aura when it acted as a damage reduction raid-CD.
    Buffs were annoying in the same way - you have to always manage people to give their buffs. This really pisses me off in raids. I have an addon that yells when we're missing a buff but people still don't buff unless being called by name a few times.

    I would maybe like back:
    - the Wrath spell that AoE stunned Undead and Demons, was it? had it glyphed for something, can't recall

    What I want new on my tank
    - a battle rez; aybe something unique like sacrifice % health to rez

    I missed the AoE taunt when it was removed but I don't miss it now anymore.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Good ol Stroggylos View Post
    Aegis of Light that is currently a prot talent makes no sense. In the end of the day why would a tank use a channeled spell .... It fits the class fantasy quite well though so i would expect it to be shared with other specs of the class (i got ret in mind obviously).
    Yeah, it's a pity though since it has such a nice visual. I used it a few times on big raid AoE situations (Orgozoa last phase comes to mind), but we don't really have the boss designed for it. For example, in some raids we had loads of "stack and heal" situations (for example Megaera rampage phase in ToT), but now we don't anymore.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    As prot paladin I can't say I miss much from the past.
    Seals were annoying in the way that if you died you had to put your seals back. I did enjoy switching seals but I think today's gameplay is too fastpaced to allow to burn a GCD to just switch a seal.
    Auras were annoying the way that people forgot to switch to something useful. I do miss sometimes having people run as fast as me when they're in my aura, but that's about it. Maybe protection aura when it acted as a damage reduction raid-CD.
    Buffs were annoying in the same way - you have to always manage people to give their buffs. This really pisses me off in raids. I have an addon that yells when we're missing a buff but people still don't buff unless being called by name a few times.

    I would maybe like back:
    - the Wrath spell that AoE stunned Undead and Demons, was it? had it glyphed for something, can't recall

    What I want new on my tank
    - a battle rez; aybe something unique like sacrifice % health to rez

    I missed the AoE taunt when it was removed but I don't miss it now anymore.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yeah, it's a pity though since it has such a nice visual. I used it a few times on big raid AoE situations (Orgozoa last phase comes to mind), but we don't really have the boss designed for it. For example, in some raids we had loads of "stack and heal" situations (for example Megaera rampage phase in ToT), but now we don't anymore.
    Holy wrath is something i miss too - glyphing it made it stunn aberrations to if i remember correctly

    I miss righteous furry as a buff i can click off - was usefull sometimes

    Also i want devotion aura back - MoP incarnation (whole raid dr and silence immunity)

    Finally i want holy power back for prot instead this stupid charge system

  18. #238
    Here’s my two cents.

    Redesign aura mastery. AM is now an ability that stays in effect until canceled. During AM your current aura’s effects are doubled and gains an additional effect for the first few seconds.

    AM afflicts you with Aura Exhaustion. AE periodically drains your mana, increasing the longer it is active. Once deactivated it will take 1 min for AE to drop. Auras cannot benefit from their short term buff while AE is active.

    Possible auras

    Devotion: increases armor by ×%. AM empowers devo to pacify enemies for 3 seconds when hit for the next 3 seconds.

    Concentration: reduces spell push back. AM grants silence and interrupt immunity for the next 4 sec.

    Crusader: increases mount speed by 20%, appied to divine steed as well. AM causes all party members to gain divine steed for 3 seconds after using divine steed, in addition grants root and snare immunity.

    Fire, frost, shadow resistance (3 separate auras): reduces fire, frost, or shadow dmg by 5%. AM causes the next spell cast in the chosen school to be reflected within the next 3 seconds.

    Retribution: enemies are dealt x dmg when striking the paladin in melee. AM increases all damage the paladin and it’s fiends take by x% but deals 100% of the damage back to attackers during the next 3 seconds not exceeding 25% of the paladins HP.

    Remeber the Aura mastery doubles the passive effect and grants the empowered effect for a short time. The empowered effect cannot happen if the paladin has Aura exhaustion.

    blessings

    Blessings are more simple. I simply imagine them being more powerful if used on friendly targets.

    Freedom: see unbound freedom.

    Protection: now pacifies the paladin but not a friendly target.

    Sacrifise: can now be used on self. Reduces all dmg by 30%. All dmg avoided will be delt as a magic dot over time after sacrifise ends. Spell remains the same on friendlies.

    unique spec blessings

    Prot, spellwarding (now baseline): remains the same but silences if used on self.

    Holy, divine intervention: if the target is fatally wounded during the next 6 seconds they will be healed to 25% and absorb all dmg but be immune to healing for 6 sec. Only 3 seconds if used on self.

    Retribution: sanctuary now baseline

  19. #239
    Auras are just boring to me. Fire and forget buffs that visually do very little and mechanically do very little as well. Sure you're playing out the fantasy of supporting others I guess, but it's very lackluster feeling.

  20. #240
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toore View Post
    I miss righteous furry as a buff i can click off - was usefull sometimes
    It was useful for tanks because you could turn it off after a tank swap if the other tank was having trouble building threat quickly so you wouldn't be generating tons of it. Likewise if you had the boss and the other tank was supposed to pick up adds - you'd turn RF off, banking on your large threat lead on the boss, and the other tank could then easily grab the adds without you having to dance around trying not to hit them with AoE, etc.

    Also, it was handy for Ret and even Holy, as a way to generate a lot of threat should it be useful to emergency tank something, etc.

    Finally i want holy power back for prot instead this stupid charge system
    Hell yes. And with more than one HP spender we can then make choices about which button to press, rather than just hitting whatever is about to cap out on charges.

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