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  1. #21
    Do we know for sure that Hammer of Wrath is becoming baseline? In the Deepdive summary it's listed in the "Talent and Honor Talent" point.

    Talents and Honor Talents - Demonic Circle, Summon Gargoyle, Hunter's Mark, Hammer of Wrath, Cyclone, Anti-magic Zone
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    please god let them remove holy power.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cringers View Post
    If they removed Holy power from ret id play it in a heart beat!
    This. And even more so if they revert Divine Storm from being an AoE slap to being a DIVINE STORM on a cooldown like in Wrath. And have the Divine Purpose talent reset your DS CD. That would be epic. No more "well let me just get 5 HP first so I can use this puny AoE slap and then.... oh the mobs died. well okay"

    Though I doubt they would go that far :/

  3. #23
    Divine Intervention or GTFO
    Hammer of Wrath is much welcome return, I member getting it in 1.5 or 1.6 while leveling in Vanilla. What a glorious day it was.
    Shadowlands is real world
    The Maw is China
    The Jailer is China government
    Sylvanas is Blizz

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ExiHext View Post
    This I can't see happening, if I am honest. But I have to admit that I play WoW since Cata, so I don't know Ret without HoPo.

    I wouldn't be too mad if we got Blessing of Might and Blessing of Kings back as 1h group buffs, but I don't think they will add it back. On the other hand: those where quite iconic abilities, too. So who knows?
    They were quite unspecific about everything it seems. Hope we will get some more info out of the interviews that are held the next few days.
    Tldr for below: holy power atm isn't a real resource and is fairly outdated given current game philosophy on gameplay based on shadowlands talk. Would be shocked if it sticks around unaltered.

    Holy power was added just before they made sure every class/spec had a unique resource. Before that it was CD and proc based like most other specs. Think arms as it is today but you basically have infinite rage.
    On one hand the holy power system makes sense when you have options, like when you would use Templars verdict for 3 or that other one (can't remember the name) that costs 5 does double to stunned targets and heals you. Or when you are balancing when to use blade vs strike to not waste power.
    But here is the issue, at lower ilvls, haste is so low it's a CD rotation with or without holy power. I'd often just be sitting there AAing waiting for something to proc or come off cd.
    Ar higher ilvls and with lucid dreams mechanic, I just priority spam like fury warriors, with the tweak of blade before Templars if at 3 and judgement before anything if 4 or less.which essentially looks like "use this on CD and ignore crusader's strike" in actual gameplay.
    There is still Inquisition but not really because its not a choice. You have to press it every 40 or so seconds whether you want to use Templars or storm or not.
    Holy power hasn't really been a real resource for awhile and doesn't match current game design philosophy, or how it sounds at least for the new expac.
    I would actually be quite surprised if it stays unchanged!
    Last edited by gioderpington; 2019-11-03 at 01:19 PM.

  5. #25
    If they don't do a full rework of retri I'll probably keep it as my main alt for tanking or healing. I'm not really displeased with the way the spec feels but with the utility it brings to dungeons and raids. I love that they are bringing old abilities back though.

  6. #26
    ========RAID WIDE/GROUP UTILITY==========
    -brez(if any1 should have it its a paladin, remember warcraft 3 paladin?)
    -empowereded aura (raid/grp wide cd)
    -turn evil - (baseline, like the old one. fear demon/undead/abberation for X seconds)
    -buffs (see greater blessings)
    -debuff/mark (possiblity through judgment, similar to monk/dh marks) ????

    =====buffs greater blessings ideas(1 for all specs, and 1 unique per spec)========
    -kings(for all specs) - 5% primary stats ???
    -might(ret specific) - increased attack power, OR % of secondary stat OR % of highest secondary stat, OR certain stat(no procs please)
    -salvation(prot or ret specific) - reduce threat generated( if threat is more of a thing )
    -sanctuary(prot specific) - less damage taken by X OR redirect X damage to tank OR ???
    -light(holy specific - increased healing taken by X.
    -wisdom(holy specific - mana regen by X)
    Last edited by Cofic; 2019-11-03 at 05:02 PM.

  7. #27
    remove combo points

    replace the goofy blade thing with exorcism for ret

  8. #28
    As long they keep seals out of the game...

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
    Replace it with some more similar to Maelstrom that the shamans have, call it Zeal or something similar, and voilá you now have more modularity over what you actually do in a rotation and what you can do, on top of the devs having greater control over resource modifying talents impacting combat flow.
    Slap the ol' Divine Storm proc from T10/WoD and you get something that feels a lot better to play.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Enhancement Shamans currently a bit of a mess to play because of their Maelstrom? There are times when they can't spend it fast enough and times where they're completely starved for it. Elemental works fine from what I understand, most likely because they're generating Maelstrom in a smoother more predictable fashion.

    Functionally, without giving the Paladin an equivelent to Windfury, we'd still be generating it from our abilities. That's going from Yellow Combo Points to Yellow Rage. On a more fundamental level, there's little difference between "20 Zeal" and "1 Holy Power". Its the same build and spend gameplay, just with different numbers involved.

    Giving us another Classes mechanic with a new name isn't really a solution. Paladins need their own mechanics, not to appropriate someone elses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zmagoslav View Post
    As long they keep seals out of the game...
    I'm disapointed they specifically mentioned Auras - They were always the least interesting part of the Paladin kit. Seals were a close second. I'd hate to see either return in their previous states.

    I don't just want Blizzard to give us back old abilities though. I want new abilities, permenant ones that are a part of my character not bolted on to an item I'm using. I'd like them to expand on my character, not take it all the way back to the state it was in TBC or whatever expansion people are claiming was the best these days,

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Enhancement Shamans currently a bit of a mess to play because of their Maelstrom? There are times when they can't spend it fast enough and times where they're completely starved for it. Elemental works fine from what I understand, most likely because they're generating Maelstrom in a smoother more predictable fashion.

    Functionally, without giving the Paladin an equivelent to Windfury, we'd still be generating it from our abilities. That's going from Yellow Combo Points to Yellow Rage. On a more fundamental level, there's little difference between "20 Zeal" and "1 Holy Power". Its the same build and spend gameplay, just with different numbers involved.

    Giving us another Classes mechanic with a new name isn't really a solution. Paladins need their own mechanics, not to appropriate someone elses.
    Enhancement shamans are a mess due to the Windfury mechanic and RNG burst resource gain.
    Unless you were unaware, you can tone that down quite a bit. Also, there are no other "unique, undiscovered" mechanics out there that would work, they're all just variations of what the other mechanics in game are.

    Ret needs a mechanic that works, not something that is unique or snowflake about it.
    There's also a lot of difference between having a resource mechanic built in resource per second to a value of 100, than a bar with 5 dots on it, the amount of modularity it gives you in play and design is a lot higher than something as rigid as combo points.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Functionally, without giving the Paladin an equivelent to Windfury, we'd still be generating it from our abilities. That's going from Yellow Combo Points to Yellow Rage. On a more fundamental level, there's little difference between "20 Zeal" and "1 Holy Power". Its the same build and spend gameplay, just with different numbers involved.

    Giving us another Classes mechanic with a new name isn't really a solution. Paladins need their own mechanics, not to appropriate someone elses.
    I could see some kind of holy power bar make up for some intersting mechanics. At present we cannot pool much hopo for burst or "dry" periods in our rotation.
    With a hopo bar which could save 100 hopo (with CS generating 10, BoJ generating 20, TV cost 30), we could store hopo for up to three TV in a row.
    Doesn't sound too bad...Divine Purpose would have to be changed significantly. Of course that is just one of the options and probably not the best. Just the first thing that came to my mind.
    I don't expect something like that, because it would be the scale of a Legion rework and they already said that's not what is going to happen (still could change their mind for certain specs).
    On the other hand they want to double down on classes rather than specs, so they have to a) give all paladin specs hopo or b) remove it from all if they want to be consistent.

  12. #32
    It'd be nice if auras actually had some sort of visual that stays with the Paladin, like it was back in the Warcraft III days.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by ExiHext View Post
    So with shadowlands on the horizon, I am excited to see what iconic spells are going to return and how the devs will implement that. Will they be impactful or rather lackluster (looking at you, Ret Aura).
    From the Deep Dive it seems Consecration is going to return to all paladins (not sure if I am happy about that), Hammer of Wrath seems to stay a talent but at least for prot either. I also read about Exorcism for prot (hopefully ret and holy will get the spell, too).
    So what do you expect? What abilities or even mechanics do you want to see returning?
    Honestly I just wanna see things like wings taken off the GCD. As prot, having cooldowns on the GCD just feels clunky as balls, like by clicking them I'm losing something if it means AS or judgement stays off CD for another whole second or two.

    I don't play the other specs so I have no idea what they might want, but the covenant spell from Kyrian looks like something awesome to have, AoE avenger's shield? Yes please. An easier way to keep consecration under me while having to move would also be nice, moving efficiently is a good skill and all but it feels really punishing to be moving around too much and you kinda have to when shit's going crazy in M+ with certain affixes.

  14. #34
    Uh, I just saw I misinterpreted that Hammer of Wrath thing...it will be coming back permanently and not as a talent. Holinka just used the example of abilities which were made into talents or honor talents and are now coming back as baseline. That is great!

  15. #35
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    Lotta people who don't play Paladin with some opinions up in here... Tbh, some of your "change this and I'd play it" stuff, I'm just gonna go out and say it; don't play it then.

    Holy Power management is a part of the spec for Ret. Not sure why anyone would be complaining about having to generate 3 Holy Power to hit a Templar's Verdict that crits like a truck, or even DS that hits decently hard now. Charge-up, then nuke is a pretty simple thing to understand, and putting your spenders on a CD and taking away Holy Power isn't going to make it better when you can generate holy power faster in certain windows and with procs (which lets you dump a lot more TVs and DSs). Putting them on a CD is going to slow down the spec, because guaranteed that Blizzard isn't going to speed up the rate at which you can cast huge damage abilities. Now, I don't know about Holy, but for Prot, I was also a fan of Holy Power. Having other abilities consume charges of Shield of the Righteous instead of Holy Power feels fucking awful.

    Now as far as the other stuff goes, Hammer of Wrath remaining a talent is basically just "meh". I'd be happier with it as a baseline ability, but it's non-consequential. However, I'd still be much happier with HoW than Consecration which they showed as an "iconic class ability". You don't have to think hard to figure out that Concecration is fucking worthless for Ret.

    Then the Auras, I have a feeling the only people who cried about Auras being gone were non-Paladins. Blizzard was right when they said they were non-impactful to gameplay. Clicking a button and having a buff radiate from your character isn't going to make anyone go "ooooh, let's play that class, it's so engaging."
    Last edited by xxcloud417xx; 2019-11-04 at 11:46 AM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Being limited exclusively by cooldowns is how we got to "faceroll Ret" in WotLK. While that was a good time to be a Ret, that was in large part due to how hard most of the core abilities hit rather than anything mechanical.
    Speaking as a top 20 ret during WotLK with several top 10 world parses on 25H encounters during ICC there was a lot of nuance to the Ret priority. It was beautiful in that you could just mash and do well, but if you actually followed the priority and managed uptime you consistently outperformed other Rets.

    Being limited by Mana is how we got to Classic Ret - Where you need to constantly throttle your damage in order to not run out of Mana. That's not a fun or interesting playstyle either for a melee class.
    I actually disagree that the concept isn't fun or interesting for a melee class. I think it could be if it was mechanically sound and balanced well. It's really no different than any other resource, including Holy Power. You generate it and spend it.

    If Holy Power was removed what would you add instead? The spec needs more mechanics than "Press all the buttons!".
    I've done this exercise a few times. There was my Zealotry concept where using a weak filler attack transformed your next attack into an empowered version (different animation/effect, i.e. Exorcism baseline becomes Hammer of Wrath under Zealotry).

    I've also tried retrofitting this concept into Wings into a WoD era Seraphim variant. In that you had alternating short duration windows (i.e. 30s) where you were empowered. In the empowered form (i.e. in Wings) your abilities change animation/effect like the Zealotry example above. The goal then becomes trying to stay in that form for as long as possible (a la Voidform from SPriest).

    Another version used a stacking DoT mastery (thematically, the idea was that a Paladin's weapon is sheathed in light which rends the foe, and we reclaim the light which deals burst damage based on stacks) that dealt damage and granted an effect on "unleashing" an Seal, very similar in execution to D3 Crusader Laws. The Seal had a passive effect and an active one. Activating a Seal triggered your Mastery. The concept was pretty binary in that you had your standard DPS Seal (passive effect was every crit finisher or something reduced the CD of wings by like 3s) and the active effect boosted haste by x%. However, abilities had mana costs so you couldn't indefinitely sustain your DPS Seal, you'd have to switch occasionally to your regenerative Seal.
    Last edited by Wrecktangle; 2019-11-04 at 03:09 PM.

  17. #37
    I would rather have Seals back. Not as they were, but as powerful 30-60 second cooldowns.

    Aside from that they really need to improve Retribution's animations, namely Templar's Verdict and Crusader Strike.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Netherspark View Post
    I would rather have Seals back. Not as they were, but as powerful 30-60 second cooldowns.

    Aside from that they really need to improve Retribution's animations, namely Templar's Verdict and Crusader Strike.
    not sure i want them to "improve" more animations. we already have the dumb looking floppy wings and the awful new judgement animation.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by xxcloud417xx View Post
    Now as far as the other stuff goes, Hammer of Wrath remaining a talent is basically just "meh".
    It isn't remaining a talent. I watched the video from the deep dive today and Holinka explicitly said some former baseline abilities which were made talents or honor talents will be coming back as baseline. Hammer of Wrath is one of them.:-)

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by ExiHext View Post
    It isn't remaining a talent. I watched the video from the deep dive today and Holinka explicitly said some former baseline abilities which were made talents or honor talents will be coming back as baseline. Hammer of Wrath is one of them.:-)
    I'm probably one of the few who thinks this: But I hope we get the old version of HoW back. Not the weak one that you can spam during AW (and when they are low on health), but ONLY when they have low health but hurts like a Deeprun Tram and make it feel like an execution ability!

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