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  1. #61
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    Would love exorcism back! Preferably tied to some kinda proc where it does double damage or something similar.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    please god let them remove holy power.
    When it came out i quit my pally, this would bring me back to one for sure

  3. #63
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    before holy power all you needed to do as a paladin was hit anything on cd, without holy power it would go back to a time where rotation barely even matters, what wow needs is combos where you can set up abilities to be more powerful than normal, holy power does that in a small way. Your basically asking to dumb down paladin even further.
    again combo points and hitting any thing on cd are not the only options look at all the other melee classes that don't have combo points. ret is no more complicated then any of the other melee classes its just less fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by analmoose View Post
    When it came out i quit my pally, this would bring me back to one for sure
    I did to, recently got back into my pally because they got rid of it from holy and prot but i still refuse to play ret.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExiHext View Post
    So with shadowlands on the horizon, I am excited to see what iconic spells are going to return and how the devs will implement that. Will they be impactful or rather lackluster (looking at you, Ret Aura).
    From the Deep Dive it seems Consecration is going to return to all paladins (not sure if I am happy about that), Hammer of Wrath seems to stay a talent but at least for prot either. I also read about Exorcism for prot (hopefully ret and holy will get the spell, too).
    So what do you expect? What abilities or even mechanics do you want to see returning?
    Hammer of wrath is not going to be a talent. And whats wrong with consecration going to all specs?

  5. #65
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    Bring back Divine Storm, Exorcism, Sacred Shield, Clemency, Empowered Seals, Emancipate, Judgements, Hands and Blessing, and grab a shotgun and take Holy Power out back behind the barn and then come back alone.

    That would go a long way to fixing things. But it won't happen.
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  6. #66
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    Holy Power gone forever. It's shit and always has been. The only times it has been a tolerable mechanic is when enough gear and legendaries/traits/essences/set bonuses etc made it irrelevant and the spec immediately feels much better because of it. Every single fucking time this is the case. Just eliminating it entirely is good and makes all of the talents, powers and gear choices that much more meaningful because you're not thinking "I'd like that but then I have to deal with Holy Power so fuck it". People that think "hurr durr that's just skillllllllll thooooo" are the problem here more than anything else as they equate a clunky lame system being annoying to deal with 'skill' as if being more awkward means more skillful.

    Auras and blessings being simple basic things. Fuck this 'it has to be intense gameplay' shit. That always ends badly and results in something being scrapped, awkward or shit. Just let auras be passive 5% damage reduction or something. That's nice and it's all they ever did anyway. Let blessings just be group buffs like Battle Shout or Fort. Throwing up a buff is part of being a paladin so leave it at that. Who cares what it does? The shitty absorb from Kings on everyone? A passive resource regeneration for everyone? I don't think either would be game-breaking but what they do is largely irrelevant, it's the feel that they give you that is the issue here.

    Blade of Justice is shit. It was brought in so paladins have 'more weapon-based attacks' and is a ranged fucking spell of a sword flying out of the ground. Fuck off with that design. Functionally the spell's actually fine and works okay, even being too vital with regards to this stupid HP system. Just make it the same thing but Exorcism and give it back its old cool sound and visual. I love that sound.

    Consecrate baseline so you have a basic shitty AOE like Whirlwind or Crash Lightning or whatever. Make a talent/spell interact with it and bam, you have AOE similar to Enh or Fury and both of theirs is fun and interactive enough. Hell just steal Maelstrom and call it Wrath or something and you have a good resource system like Crusaders have in D3.

    Make Crusader Strike DO SOMETHING. Make it hit everything in your Consecrate. Make it actually do damage. Make it debuff targets rather than Judgement and have Judgement be some big damaging attack instead. All that paladin abilities do is 'do damage' and it's fucking dull. This is where the spec should have some fun shit added to it, not be forced to cope with a shitty Holy Power system. I swear so much of the spec would be much more playable without it.

    All this "Ret has to be complicated hurr durr" can fuck off. Wrath Ret was the highpoint of the game and people only think of it as a starting point because they only played it then because it was shit before. Ret was the final point of evolution of a spec that always sucked and it fixed all of its problems. That's where it should go back to at least in part because lots of things it had then are lost now. "Hurr durr you could get some shitty addon to paly it thoooooooo" all the try-hards cry. Good. Let try-hards not play my spec. I'd love that. What's the real danger? Ret becomes an easy to play spec like fucking DH? Ohhhhhhhhhhh noooooooooooooo. What a terrible fate. People might rip on Ret's playerbase, something that has never happened before. Fuck that, I don't care if it's easy, so long as it's fun and it'd be more fun like that than now because Wrath Ret was the best it ever was.
    Paladin Bash has spoken.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    before holy power all you needed to do as a paladin was hit anything on cd, without holy power it would go back to a time where rotation barely even matters, what wow needs is combos where you can set up abilities to be more powerful than normal, holy power does that in a small way. Your basically asking to dumb down paladin even further.
    the spec is nearly "press everything on cd" even with current HP.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Vintersol View Post
    Just give back the mobility row!
    Nooooo. There is already an oversaturation of mobility amongst classes right now. The classes that are thematically less mobile but tankier (ex Paladins and Warlocks), should bolster their strengths and not fill in the holes of their weaknesses.

    Everyone is getting an extra mobility skill with Covenants anyway.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    My biggest concern with them is that they seem to be simply throwing old abilities back onto existing classes in what seems like nothing more than an attempt to simply placate players. Some people are going to be happy with that, I see it as being a step backwards. A lot of what is already anounced for Shadowlands looks like they're simply reverting back to older designs.

    I've mentioned this a lot this thread, but I don't want old abilities back just for the sake of having them. I want something new, something fresh. We've yet to see a shred of originality from what we know about Shadowlands so far.
    One thing is crystal clear: even with some old abilities returning, we won't get classic or even cata or MoP classes back.



    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    So.. Anything thats got "Seal" in the name, even if mechanically it's something hugely different? What if it was called "Seal of Fireball" and cast Curse of Weakness on your target would that satisfy you, provided it had the Seal Animation where the symbol appears and the column of light rises around your character? What if it was a hollow self buff that did nothing but give you some flavour text, would that be acceptable too?

    I realise those are absurd example, but that seems to be the length some people are willing to go to get anything that's a Seal in name only into the game. I mentioned this in another thread about Classic, but Seals never worked for Prot or Holy until WotLK when they became self buffs that you activated once and forgot about. In Holys case, they only worked in WotLK because they were required for a 15% haste buff and were supported by a Glyph. The whole thing, honestly, felt quite forced.

    They, kind of, worked for Ret and ret alone. Even then only Seal of Command scaled with stats Ret would commonly have on their gear. Again, that was until WotLK when Seals were allowed to scale properly and their effects were divorced from the Judgement debuffs.

    That leaves Blizzard in a difficult situation. Why add back a mechanic that only "worked" for a single spec after they'd separated it into it's component parts? Attempting to side step the issue and making them Ret only runs contrary to the more class focused design for the expansion. Making a Seal system that works for all three Paladin specs is something Blizzard have tried and failed at for years across multiple expansion. Even if, by some miracle, Blizzard nails it - The mechanics themselves are still uninteresting to play with.

    Seals are best off out of the game in my opinion. There's no way to make them fun, interesting and useful without also making them something completely different to what players are asking for.
    Now you are exaggerating a little bit. I already gave you Zeal as an example which would fit the seal fantasy. No clutter, no balancing or gameplay problems, no new or cumbersome mechanic. It looks like a seal when executed, why not call it so?
    I have to admit that I wouldn't be opposed to return Seal of Truth and Seal of Righteousness, but I also understand that a lot of people didn't like them and for the sake of gameplay they don't need to come back.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    They will more than likely take most of the feedback that comes from their official forums/beta testing etc.
    You will hear nearly the same feedback on the official forums since a lot of posters use both of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    Hammer of wrath is not going to be a talent. And whats wrong with consecration going to all specs?
    Thanks guys for repeatedly telling me this when I already admitted I was wrong two pages ago. I edited the OP, ok? ;-p

    Consecration for ret is (depending on its incarnation) a suboptimal spell, because it will eventually be rotational (as in BfA if selected as a talent), which means we are balanced around it, but t has the huge drawback that it is stationary. Which means, if the tank moves the mob(s) out of it, you are losing dps.
    This problem could be solved through a) cons having no cooldown (but then it will not grant hopo, which renders it quite useless) or b) let cons move with the player (which it did through a glyph for prot I think in WoD). About the moving part blizz seems quite adamant to not return that, because it was requested for quite some time now.
    They solved the problem for prot through dramaticaly reducing the cooldown, but for ret a lower cooldown means no holy power generation and mediocre damage at best.

    Which all doesn't mean that I dislike cons (no high end player AT ALL), especially if it would finally get a new animation. Just reciting the general problems the ret community has with cons (but I am sure someone will prove me wrong on this xD). Perhaps blizz finds a satisfying way to implement it, I am excited.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noct View Post
    Nooooo. There is already an oversaturation of mobility amongst classes right now. The classes that are thematically less mobile but tankier (ex Paladins and Warlocks), should bolster their strengths and not fill in the holes of their weaknesses.

    Everyone is getting an extra mobility skill with Covenants anyway.
    Get out! I want my Long Arm of the Law back! In fact that is the single most requested ability by me. They could keep all the rest if I got LAotL back. Blizzard, please!
    Last edited by ExiHext; 2019-11-07 at 07:43 AM.

  10. #70
    I don't see them doing much more than returning auras and blessings tbh...
    Prot is a rotational CD based spec that also has some situational tank desicion making moments.
    Holy has the mana bar to play around.
    Ret has HoPo and the forgotten mana bar. I don't see them returning to pre cata system where everything will be attached to mana so for rets and their damage I believe HoPo will stay. Having said that I would love to see them complimenting with baseline survivability for the lack of mobility and with group/raid wide utility bound to mana leading to some decision making regarding mobility/self damage reduction-survivability/group wide utility/ dps CDs. I honestly don't see them going into the trouble of balancing the above so again it will be something superficial like auras and blessings and a couple of spells coming back.

  11. #71
    I'd really like to see empowered seals back. I know it wasn't that popular even back in WoD, but I really enjoyed it. It actually made for a fairly complex rotation that I haven't seen in ret since.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    If I get my auras, I am a happy man. Plus I will take the Hammer of Wrath as prot. Finally it is back...
    Game design is so easy. All you gotta do is take away something, and return with it years later like you're the Jesus of Gameplay. Can't wait for the fanfares when Tier Sets come back.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by molsn View Post
    And now stop imagining and poof, you're an Outlaw Rogue using Roll the Bones, get outta here.

    The only thing wrong with Ret now in PVE is that there is that small amount of downtime where you have no buttons to push, all I'd like to see is Exorcism back, with the talent to make it Mass Exorcism. Auras are trash and they can stay extinct, bring Consecration along for the ride too, never do I want that trash back on my bars, useless aoe that sucks.
    Pretty sure Roll the Bones is rng buffs, which is what makes it so frustrating to use. The model I presented gives the player the ability to choose the aura/seal buffs that he wants for certain fights, giving depth to the - let's be honest - shallow builder/spender model we have today. Seals/buffs were what made paladins awesome in Classic. If they're afraid to give us useful buffs like Blessing of Might directly, they should be part of our rotation.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinBash View Post
    Auras and blessings being simple basic things. Fuck this 'it has to be intense gameplay' shit. That always ends badly and results in something being scrapped, awkward or shit. Just let auras be passive 5% damage reduction or something. That's nice and it's all they ever did anyway. Let blessings just be group buffs like Battle Shout or Fort. Throwing up a buff is part of being a paladin so leave it at that. Who cares what it does? The shitty absorb from Kings on everyone? A passive resource regeneration for everyone? I don't think either would be game-breaking but what they do is largely irrelevant, it's the feel that they give you that is the issue here.
    I care. I don't want forgettable shit for flavor.

    Blade of Justice is shit. It was brought in so paladins have 'more weapon-based attacks' and is a ranged fucking spell of a sword flying out of the ground. Fuck off with that design. Functionally the spell's actually fine and works okay, even being too vital with regards to this stupid HP system. Just make it the same thing but Exorcism and give it back its old cool sound and visual. I love that sound.
    BoJ is my favorite Ret ability and reminds me of the temple knights of FFT, which is a great incarnation of the Paladin archetype. I'm all for exorcism coming back, but not at the expense of BoJ.

    Consecrate baseline so you have a basic shitty AOE like Whirlwind or Crash Lightning or whatever. Make a talent/spell interact with it and bam, you have AOE similar to Enh or Fury and both of theirs is fun and interactive enough. Hell just steal Maelstrom and call it Wrath or something and you have a good resource system like Crusaders have in D3.
    While I'm in agreement with D3/Wrath concerns, Consecrate just hasn't been fun or useful in as long as I can remember. It really does need a rework on what it does if it's to be fun in any capacity. I do love the ability thematically and aesthetically.

    Make Crusader Strike DO SOMETHING. Make it hit everything in your Consecrate. Make it actually do damage. Make it debuff targets rather than Judgement and have Judgement be some big damaging attack instead. All that paladin abilities do is 'do damage' and it's fucking dull. This is where the spec should have some fun shit added to it, not be forced to cope with a shitty Holy Power system. I swear so much of the spec would be much more playable without it.
    Agreed.

  15. #75
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  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
    Replace it with some more similar to Maelstrom that the shamans have, call it Zeal or something similar, and voilá you now have more modularity over what you actually do in a rotation and what you can do, on top of the devs having greater control over resource modifying talents impacting combat flow.
    That just makes Ret into a holy version of enhance. I want specs to be more different, not less. Ret's been a build and spend spec since Cata, and the problems with it have been from Blizz mucking with the resource build rate, not the core system (once it was fixed mid-Cata). It would be better to get rid of the build-spend pattern in other specs where it was added as their core system in WoD or Legion.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by threadz View Post
    the spec is nearly "press everything on cd" even with current HP.
    not saying its any harder but each spec should have an extra degree of complexity which requires some skill to pull off, not just hitting something off cd

    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    again combo points and hitting any thing on cd are not the only options look at all the other melee classes that don't have combo points. ret is no more complicated then any of the other melee classes its just less fun.
    the only playstyles WoW has is Procs and combo points of different variations like runes, HP, everything in melee is try to hit your most powerful ability as soon as possible and anything else when it comes of cd, not very interesting combat either way, ret before HP was even more braindead and basic than it currently is now, you could play ret back in wotlk with a 1 button macro and come top.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2019-11-07 at 06:44 PM.
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  18. #78
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    not saying its any harder but each spec should have an extra degree of complexity which requires some skill to pull off, not just hitting something off cd



    the only playstyles WoW has is Procs and combo points of different variations like runes, HP, everything in melee is try to hit your most powerful ability as soon as possible and anything else when it comes of cd, not very interesting combat either way, ret before HP was even more braindead and basic than it currently is now, you could play ret back in wotlk with a 1 button macro and come top.
    Runes don’t work like combo points they have never been a build 5 with to do x. We also have 15 years worth of class design between shamans warriors and pre combo point Pallys to draw from to show that combo points and the current proc style are not the limits to the classes.

  19. #79
    Seals. I want to see these seals again.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
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    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    Runes don’t work like combo points they have never been a build 5 with to do x. We also have 15 years worth of class design between shamans warriors and pre combo point Pallys to draw from to show that combo points and the current proc style are not the limits to the classes.
    runes are a variation of combo points, if you dont have enough combo points you cant either do something or it will be far less potent, if you dont have runes available you cant use an ability, it is the limit on what blizz can do since they lack the ability to make classes actually interesting to play.
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