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  1. #81
    Titan Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    runes are a variation of combo points, if you dont have enough combo points you cant either do something or it will be far less potent, if you dont have runes available you cant use an ability, it is the limit on what blizz can do since they lack the ability to make classes actually interesting to play.
    They really aren’t. Combo points chi hp all work the same way you use X ability to gain Y amount to use Z ability.

    Runes in the other hand are gained passively or though a few select talents or ability’s depending on what iteration of the dk your on. Then there’s how runes we’re in the past with blood unholy frost and death where you could mix and match your rune use for different abilities giving you an amount of choice that combo points have never had.

    Hell with the logic you are using you might as well Say rage is combo points as you need X amount to do Y or else you can’t do it or it’s less effective.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    They really aren’t. Combo points chi hp all work the same way you use X ability to gain Y amount to use Z ability.

    Runes in the other hand are gained passively or though a few select talents or ability’s depending on what iteration of the dk your on. Then there’s how runes we’re in the past with blood unholy frost and death where you could mix and match your rune use for different abilities giving you an amount of choice that combo points have never had.

    Hell with the logic you are using you might as well Say rage is combo points as you need X amount to do Y or else you can’t do it or it’s less effective.
    you have a set number of runes and you can get a set number of combo points, its the same just in a different way to give the illusion its different, combo points also have choices in what abilities you can use them on, just because runes regen over time and you build combo points up doesnt mean they are not a similar system.
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  3. #83
    Titan Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    you have a set number of runes and you can get a set number of combo points, its the same just in a different way to give the illusion its different, combo points also have choices in what abilities you can use them on, just because runes regen over time and you build combo points up doesnt mean they are not a similar system.
    I’m not gonna bother going into greater detail as you either clearly don’t know/care about the differences or are just trolling me.

    Apples and oranges are not the same fruit just because they are both spherical.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    I’m not gonna bother going into greater detail as you either clearly don’t know/care about the differences or are just trolling me.

    Apples and oranges are not the same fruit just because they are both spherical.
    The only difference is the way its generated and thats it, the core part is you need x rune/combo point to use x ability
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  5. #85
    Titan Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    The only difference is the way its generated and thats it, the core part is you need x rune/combo point to use x ability
    Sure that’s the only difference just like how rage is just another kind of combo points as well.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Okacz View Post
    Game design is so easy. All you gotta do is take away something, and return with it years later like you're the Jesus of Gameplay. Can't wait for the fanfares when Tier Sets come back.
    I fully expect them taking stuff away in couple of expansions again. :/

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    not saying its any harder but each spec should have an extra degree of complexity which requires some skill to pull off, not just hitting something off cd



    the only playstyles WoW has is Procs and combo points of different variations like runes, HP, everything in melee is try to hit your most powerful ability as soon as possible and anything else when it comes of cd, not very interesting combat either way, ret before HP was even more braindead and basic than it currently is now, you could play ret back in wotlk with a 1 button macro and come top.
    i think the big negative of the combo points though is things feel like they have very little impact. the builders always feel sort of weak and our finishers are used pretty frequently so they also feel kind of meh. compare to a time like wrath when every divine storm felt like a nuke.

  8. #88
    I believe that the switch to holy power in Cata and the fantasy model that Blizz implemented in legion were the 2 biggest mistakes made. Holy Power is, at its foundation, shiny combo points and there are now 4 classes that use some sort of combo point model (monks, rogues, Fdruid, ret pally). it seems that every change to the paladin class was a rework of something that already existed within another class. which leads me to the next point I wanted to make about the 'class fantasy' route Blizz took in legion. the reworks that many classes/specs got in legion were, IMHO, backward,i.e. I think BM hunter should have been the melee spec. I pitched years ago that the pally resource should be a [insert cool name here] bar, we can call it 'wrath', that fills as you use holy attacks similar to how demo locks used to be when they had demon form or Spriests, where, once filled, you can activate pally wings that drains your "wrath bar" as you attack/heal.

    Other than that; id like to see...
    1. judgment speed boost
    2. less utility & more damage
    3. official Ranged 'shockadin' spec
    4. Night Elves as a race choice for paladin
    5. Divine Purpose/ Repentance baseline
    Last edited by Omaski; 2019-11-08 at 07:54 AM.

  9. #89
    Auras bring unity to paladins
    All classes should bring a buff... ret pal with might, holy with wisdom, prot with kings
    If Exo is back then certainly Holy Wrath needs to be as well
    Crusader Strike baseline
    HoW baseline
    Interrupt baseline

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
    If Exo is back then certainly Holy Wrath needs to be as well
    Legion PTSD intensifies...

  11. #91
    Would really like it if Holy Power went away to let other abilities hit a bit harder and 'do something'.

    Judgement: Debuffs the target with Light to heal people attacking the target (Or wisdom if they could make mana matter - which they should).
    Crusader Strike: Take inspiration of the original design. Attacking someone with it applies a debuff that increases all holy damage dealt on the target (could change it so it's +1% crit chance and stacks 3 times, kinda how TBC/WotLK had Improved Judgement of the Crusader to grant that).

    Right now it's just really unsatisfying. Use weak abilities to get holy power up and then do an attack that doesn't do much damage at all because you can get holy power somewhat fast enough. I would just prefer having all abilities hit hard(-ish), but to make up for it, have to deal with the cooldowns on the abilities (Not to the same level of Classic, mind you, but WotLK. Though I sure can say seeing Seal of Command proc and you crit both that and auto attack at the same time on Classic, feel SO satisfying compared to anything we do now). On those cooldowns you should be able to pop an instant flash of light or something to help your friends out.

  12. #92
    Herald of the Titans Vintersol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noct View Post
    Nooooo. There is already an oversaturation of mobility amongst classes right now. The classes that are thematically less mobile but tankier (ex Paladins and Warlocks), should bolster their strengths and not fill in the holes of their weaknesses.

    Everyone is getting an extra mobility skill with Covenants anyway.
    Then strip the mobility from other classes. Paladins hat +runspeed since classic. I can't stand my paladin anymore because he is so fucking slow.
    It's high noon.
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  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Pennem View Post
    To be fair though, this is a restructuring that is setting a new foundation going forward.
    And that is my concern - That Blizzard are going to keep resetting the game to the last known good configuration every couple of expansions. It sets a worrying precedent for the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinBash View Post
    Auras and blessings being simple basic things. Fuck this 'it has to be intense gameplay' shit. That always ends badly and results in something being scrapped, awkward or shit. Just let auras be passive 5% damage reduction or something. That's nice and it's all they ever did anyway.
    Devotion Aura is already a passive 3-10% damage reduction. It's a stupidly powerful ability that goes completely unnoticed. I don't think that degree of "invisible power" is really healthy for the game, I'd much rather offer that kind of power in appreciable chunks, that gives some form of feedback for the Paladin and lets the other players know that the Paladin is benefiting the group.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExiHext View Post
    Now you are exaggerating a little bit
    I was intentionally exaggerating, but that seems to be the lengths some posters in here are willing to go to get just something that's got the word "Seal" in the name. I just don't get it. The original Seal/Judgement system only worked for a single spec when they separated the two - Removing the only interesting part of the system in the process. A return to that would undo a lot of the progress the Paladin has made since Vanilla.

    Quote Originally Posted by A Princess From Norway View Post
    Please remove Glimmer! Thank you!
    I assume that it will be going with the Azerite system. Then again it may also live on as a talent, it's too early to say at this point. I don't particularly care for the trait myself, but the playstyle it promotes, staying in melee range to be most effective, is something I'd like to see stay. The idea of a full time melee healer is something that's never really been explored in WoW.

  14. #94
    The Lightbringer Pennem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    And that is my concern - That Blizzard are going to keep resetting the game to the last known good configuration every couple of expansions. It sets a worrying precedent for the future.
    Not really, at least not to me. They're hearkening back to a bit of old design but melding it with the modernity of current WoW. I like that. There's fun things of the past that shouldn't have been taken away, like Pally Auras being switchable on the fly depending on the situation and available to all Paladins.

    Stuff like that is good.

    Again, the majority of feedback for classes right now was that a lot of classes core gameplay loops are not fun, and rentable abilities isn't fun.

    They're not simply taking a few steps back, it's going to affect what's given in the future as well.

    I don't really see how they've "kept resetting to last known good configuration". Every expansion they try to be fresh with classes but they've also taken so much away too. From what it sounds like, they're bringing stuff back and also going to make sure that shake-ups won't be so crazy (hence them mentioning SL class changes specifically not being Legion-level shake-ups).

  15. #95
    At this point paladins have had holy power longer than they haven't. I know I shouldn't be surprised, but it is truly amazing how people can't just let it go at this point.


    The aura obsession really fascinates me too, since they will almost certainly be turned to near worthlessness on a dps class. The thing people should be clamoring for is Blessing of Sacrifice, since it was actually good. But even then I don't think they want to return to the days of dps classes having tank cooldowns.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    I assume that it will be going with the Azerite system. Then again it may also live on as a talent, it's too early to say at this point. I don't particularly care for the trait myself, but the playstyle it promotes, staying in melee range to be most effective, is something I'd like to see stay. The idea of a full time melee healer is something that's never really been explored in WoW.
    Not very proficient in prot, but for holy I can see Glimmer of Light stay, for ret Empyrean Power (while I would like the later as a baseline class mechanic). I just hope they do not keep things like Indomitable Justice, Light's Decree or Avenger's Might. That would be really lazy.
    They need some new talents in the tree if they are going to make some talents baseline. Assuming, that they don't change the number of rows. I wouldn't be opposed to let's say 5 talent rows either, if we got more stuff baseline and the decisions in the talent tree were impactful.

    A lot of people were already freaking out because there was no new talent row in the demo at blizzcon...didn't understand that. Class changes (which have to come even if blizz denies) weren't implemented, so we still have no idea how many rows we will get and at which level.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    At this point paladins have had holy power longer than they haven't. I know I shouldn't be surprised, but it is truly amazing how people can't just let it go at this point.
    I somewhat agree. Then again I just know paladin WITH holy power, so I never had a real problem with it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    The aura obsession really fascinates me too, since they will almost certainly be turned to near worthlessness on a dps class. The thing people should be clamoring for is Blessing of Sacrifice, since it was actually good. But even then I don't think they want to return to the days of dps classes having tank cooldowns.
    If auras are only those near meaningless icons in the stance bar then yea, don't need that. But if they give us a button like aura mastery which empowers the chosen aura for a few seconds, I can see this being fun. Or a talent that expands auras is some way. Or auras being some impactful cooldowns.
    There ARE way to make auras meaningful. The question is: will they go that way or will they just implement Cataclysm aura bar where you chose one and only change to pony aura and back in battlegrounds.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by ExiHext View Post
    There ARE way to make auras meaningful. The question is: will they go that way or will they just implement Cataclysm aura bar where you chose one and only change to pony aura and back in battlegrounds.
    Feels like it could be done really easily for two of them. Devotion aura increases armour for everyone, depending how much armour the one using it has. Ret aura, based on attack power (spell if holy).

    Concentration... I'm not sure how much of an issue pushback is nowadays so can't really comment. Does it cause any problems (and if so, PvP only or PvE as well)?

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by ExiHext View Post
    So with shadowlands on the horizon, I am excited to see what iconic spells are going to return and how the devs will implement that. Will they be impactful or rather lackluster (looking at you, Ret Aura).
    From the Deep Dive it seems Consecration is going to return to all paladins (not sure if I am happy about that), so does Hammer of Wrath.
    I also read about Exorcism for prot (hopefully ret and holy will get the spell, too).
    So what do you expect? What abilities or even mechanics do you want to see returning?
    Aura's always weren't a make or break thing, but they were nice to have. I'd love to see them come back, but don't expect anything amazing from Ret Aura really. I'm hoping if they bring them back they bring them all back. Devotion, Retribution, Concentration, Shadow/Fire/Frost Resistance (preferably all in one, but I'm not opposed to 3 separate) and Crusader Aura (yeah we'd probably lose our auto 20%)

    Consecration being back baseline would be nice. I get frustrated with my Ret spec when I swap to it and don't have it for PvP since I'm lazy on swapping talents constantly. Hammer of Wrath being back would great. I liked using it back then and it was nice seeing it light up as it was like a "light at the end of the tunnel" on % and it was another decent range move to use when it activated.

    Exorcism I'd like to see come back as well as Holy Shield for protection (original where it was on use compared to now; though the one now has spell reduction too so idk).

    Honestly, and I know I may be pitchforked over it, I'd love to see Seals come back. Even if it's a choice between Righteousness or Corruption (having the dot at times is nice). Though seal twisting would be more fun, but I don't see it standing a chance of coming back.

    The #1 spell I want to come back is Divine Intervention.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    To be quite honest, "unpruning" sounds like an awful idea. I don't want old abilities back, I want this expansion to bring new and interesting abilities.
    but how many of those 'new and interesting' options would litarally just be giving back some of the same abilities?

    Like how they got rid of exorcism and gave that silly magic blade skill with have the range...

    Or in the case of rogues, they straight up replaced signature skills with the EXACT SAME ability just renamed while slapping a different dmg equation on it (odd cause they don't bother renaming all the skills like that)

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    The #1 spell I want to come back is Divine Intervention.
    Which incarnation? I only know Legion Divine Intervention which basically was auto bubble. That was not very useful, especially in pvp.
    The other Divine Intervention I found was something like sacrificing yourself to make another party member immune to damage for 3 minutes, but the target cannot use abilities...doesn't sound that good either.

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