Shadowlands paladin changes

[Lucetia]

Which incarnation? I only know Legion Divine Intervention which basically was auto bubble. That was not very useful, especially in pvp.
The other Divine Intervention I found was something like sacrificing yourself to make another party member immune to damage for 3 minutes, but the target cannot use abilities...doesn't sound that good either.

Never messed with Legion version (or knew there was one, must have been a PvP Spell)

The original version was basically "Kill yourself and bubble someone else for so many minutes". It wasn't something you used all the time, but you'd used it when you are calling a wipe since you could bubble someone with res to get the group back up and since you sacrificed yourself you too no durability damage. So you and whoever got to save a repair bill while everyone else got to save a run back. It had a ton of applications you could use it for other things. One instance was there was a fight that gave a debuff that didn't drop unless you died but if you popped that on you and another you could remove two debuffs in one go and get battle ressed. I want to say it was Deathbringer in ICC, but it might've been another fight.

[crusadernero]

Give us auras back even though they dont matter THAT much. Give us blessings too, it was cool having that for whatever spec you had.

[dcc626]

If they don't do a full rework of retri I'll probably keep it as my main alt for tanking or healing. I'm not really displeased with the way the spec feels but with the utility it brings to dungeons and raids. I love that they are bringing old abilities back though.

they already said they arent looking to do large class overhauls in Shadowlands. so i wouldnt expect too much.

- - - Updated - - -

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Enhancement Shamans currently a bit of a mess to play because of their Maelstrom? There are times when they can't spend it fast enough and times where they're completely starved for it. Elemental works fine from what I understand, most likely because they're generating Maelstrom in a smoother more predictable fashion.

Functionally, without giving the Paladin an equivelent to Windfury, we'd still be generating it from our abilities. That's going from Yellow Combo Points to Yellow Rage. On a more fundamental level, there's little difference between "20 Zeal" and "1 Holy Power". Its the same build and spend gameplay, just with different numbers involved.

Giving us another Classes mechanic with a new name isn't really a solution. Paladins need their own mechanics, not to appropriate someone elses.



I'm disapointed they specifically mentioned Auras - They were always the least interesting part of the Paladin kit. Seals were a close second. I'd hate to see either return in their previous states.

I don't just want Blizzard to give us back old abilities though. I want new abilities, permenant ones that are a part of my character not bolted on to an item I'm using. I'd like them to expand on my character, not take it all the way back to the state it was in TBC or whatever expansion people are claiming was the best these days,

well, everytime that make a talent baseline then have to add a new talent to replace it. i think we will see a number of those across the specs. will be interested to see how things look when beta is released next year.

[ThiagoTorres]

So with shadowlands on the horizon, I am excited to see what iconic spells are going to return and how the devs will implement that. Will they be impactful or rather lackluster (looking at you, Ret Aura).
From the Deep Dive it seems Consecration is going to return to all paladins (not sure if I am happy about that), so does Hammer of Wrath.
I also read about Exorcism for prot (hopefully ret and holy will get the spell, too).
So what do you expect? What abilities or even mechanics do you want to see returning?

All bless again, hammer of wrath being a finisher and not a holy power feed with crap damage, exorcism for at least prot and retry (but hope all 3 specs)

Tbh i really wish they remove holy power from ret paladins lol but i know that wont happen

[paxen]

WoW fundamentally has 4 types of resources:

- huge pool slowly drained: mana
- small pool constantly refilled: energy
- generated by abilities: combo points, or runic power if it's a bar
- generated by auto attacks: classic rage

The melee classes all use some combination of the latter three, in addition you also have cooldowns, procs and dots, which do some of the same stuff but, I'd argue, are a bit different.

most leather classes use energy + combo points
demon hunter fury is runic power, if you use demon blades you turn part of it into rage
hunter focus is energy (6/second) + runic power (from abilities)
maelstrom is rage (auto attacks) + runic power
modern rage is also classic rage + runic power
DKs use energy (under this view runes closely match up to energy, not combo points) and runic power, which is functionally inverse rogues (energy-> runes and combo points->runic power)
and paladins use combo points

Maybe the problem is that paladins are about the only class left that doesn't use a mix of the three types, but only combo points?


Actually, I think turning Holy Power into mana could be cool (ret would have to have separate mana pool for healing, unless they nerf dps healing again). Two reasons for this: I could see a paladin glowing slightly when they're full of holy power, and as the fight goes on it slowly diminishes. The second part is that a mana dps class needs some sort of Evocation mechanic, and I think the purely cosmetic Contemplation spell would be just the thing.

You could have judgement and crusader strike generate something akin to arcane charges, and have templar's verdict be the reset mechanic, or maybe crusader strike lowers the mana holy power cost of TV, stacking, letting you either burn your entire bar on TV, or stretch it out by using some number of CS inbetween.

Other abilities like Judgement and Blade of Justice would be cooldowns/procs to spice it up.

[Gungnir]

That just makes Ret into a holy version of enhance. I want specs to be more different, not less. Ret's been a build and spend spec since Cata, and the problems with it have been from Blizz mucking with the resource build rate, not the core system (once it was fixed mid-Cata). It would be better to get rid of the build-spend pattern in other specs where it was added as their core system in WoD or Legion.

Sure, and that would still be a vast improvement over the Holy Power system.
The Maelstrom/Rage mechanic are a lot less rigid than the combo point system, giving you a lot more freedom and flow in what you do.

[StrawberryZebra]

I don't really see how they've "kept resetting to last known good configuration".

They haven't yet - Shadowlands looks, so far, to be their first time doing it. I don't want it to be the default get out for Blizzard if and when they make a mess of things. "Fixing" the problems by pretending they never happened isn't really a sustainable model for the future.

but how many of those 'new and interesting' options would litarally just be giving back some of the same abilities?

Ideally zero - Thats why they'd be new and interesting. Not a rebranded version of a skill that was already removed, not an existing skill with a new name. Not adding back an old skill just for the sake of it. Something that is both new and interesting. And not something thats tied to an item or a Covenant either. I hardly think it needs to be stated at this point but temporary skills are very jarring from a player perspective.

The game world and the story will be expanding, I don't think wanting my character to expand and grow with it is too unreasonable to ask for.

Not very proficient in prot, but for holy I can see Glimmer of Light stay, for ret Empyrean Power (while I would like the later as a baseline class mechanic). I just hope they do not keep things like Indomitable Justice, Light's Decree or Avenger's Might. That would be really lazy.
They need some new talents in the tree if they are going to make some talents baseline. Assuming, that they don't change the number of rows. I wouldn't be opposed to let's say 5 talent rows either, if we got more stuff baseline and the decisions in the talent tree were impactful.

I also wouldn't mind keeping the trait that adds the DoT to crit Holy Shocks somewhere on the Paladins kit too. I forget the name off the top of my head. It makes crit more interesting as a stat.

Most of the Prot traits tend to simply be adding to your passive survivability, they're solid performers at what they do, but they don't stand out as being fun or particularly inventive. They're not really something I would want to keep in any kind of form, I barely even notice their effects as it is.

One instance was there was a fight that gave a debuff that didn't drop unless you died but if you popped that on you and another you could remove two debuffs in one go and get battle ressed. I want to say it was Deathbringer in ICC, but it might've been another fight.

Quite possiably Azgalor in Mount Hyjal?

[mickybrighteyes]

Ideally zero - Thats why they'd be new and interesting. Not a rebranded version of a skill that was already removed, not an existing skill with a new name. Not adding back an old skill just for the sake of it. Something that is both new and interesting. And not something thats tied to an item or a Covenant either. I hardly think it needs to be stated at this point but temporary skills are very jarring from a player perspective.

The game world and the story will be expanding, I don't think wanting my character to expand and grow with it is too unreasonable to ask for.

I think you'd still be getting a lot of sword of justice type abilities that are just a reskinned toned down version of something older. (exorcism was miles better cause of range for example). Or something like wake of ashes or divine storm. Taken away and given back as an option for a talent instead.

This is just an awkward set up since we're already sitting in a post 'power loss' state as it is.

[Daymanmb]

DI was removed because it was an ability so strong entire fights needed to be balanced around having it.. Im not sure it needs to make a return.

[Demsi]

DI was removed because it was an ability so strong entire fights needed to be balanced around having it.. Im not sure it needs to make a return.

Was it really? seing as you killed yourself when using it.

[Sigxy]

Was it really? seing as you killed yourself when using it.

I heard the argument before. Just couldn't find much apart from one boss fight which seems like a bug Blizzard could've just hotfixed. Apparently if you used Divine Intervention on the Razorgore fight in BWL you could prevent adds from respawning on the next attempt.

[Lucetia]

Was it really? seing as you killed yourself when using it.

It didn't cause balancing issues. If I remember the reasoning then it was along the lines of "You shouldn't have to kill yourself to progress in a fight" referring to sacrificing and battle ressing to remove certain debuffs. At the time it basically felt like "Too many people are getting creative and we don't like it."

[Daymanmb]

Was it really? seing as you killed yourself when using it.

Yes, battle rez was a thing.

[ipoststuff]

Things i do NOT want back for ret
- Seals
- Inquisition
- Consecration

Things i want back for ret
- Auras
- Blessings
- Exorcism

[Thontor]

please god let them remove holy power.

Please no. Holy Power is the best thing they ever gave to ret

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Was it really? seing as you killed yourself when using it.

You could use it to trivialize Iron Council HM in Ulduar, IIRC. If I'm not mistaken, you could use it to remove the explodey debuff off the tank.

Of course, most of the time it was used to troll people in our raid. Using it on the tank at 2%, that kind of thing :P

[paxen]

I think some variant of Seals could be good. A version where the main purpose of a Seal is to change Judgement (giving it a snare, adding cleave damage, a heal effect, maybe even mana regen), with perhaps a small constant buff. Could be off the gcd so you can change easily, or on it so that you're not changing Seals every judgement.

[th3478t9gr89h2r89]

I think seals should return, but they shouldnt have a 30 sec duration. Just make them infinite untill you change seal. Also judgement shouldnt lose the seals.

Auras should return, wich they seem to be. You should also have a empower aura spell class wide instead of holy only.

Ditch divine steed and give us emancipate(?). Paladins should be slow but never slowed. blessing of freedom plays into this, even though it has a cd.

Bring back blessings buffs. The current 2 blessings for ret are crap. and make them class wide obviously.

If we are keeping holy power crusader strike should lose its CD. We could also use a AoE HP builder, along with other uses for spending. A heal or CC for example.

[Sigxy]

Ditch divine steed and give us emancipate(?). Paladins should be slow but never slowed. blessing of freedom plays into this, even though it has a cd.

I don't agree entirely with how to replace Divine Steed. I do think it SHOULD be replaced - but in my preference Pursuit of Justice. We don't have a sprint, instead a speed boost at all time to make up for it - meaning we can't chase someone on demand but we can still catch up.

[ExiHext]

I don't agree entirely with how to replace Divine Steed. I do think it SHOULD be replaced - but in my preference Pursuit of Justice. We don't have a sprint, instead a speed boost at all time to make up for it - meaning we can't chase someone on demand but we can still catch up.

Long Arm of the Law or bust!