View Poll Results: What would you like seen done with Pathfinder?

Voters
429. You may not vote on this poll
  • Remove pathfinder

    83 19.35%
  • Keep Pathfinder but remove the time-gating (available at launch)

    208 48.48%
  • Pathfinder is fine as-is

    138 32.17%
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  1. #501
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    Your argument is that you are trying to incorporate other factors into why you don’t meet horde in wpvp.

    You first said that flying has no affect on this which made me consider the newspaper you wrote a pile of garbage. Thank god we at least get to enjoy the first half of the expansion at least before flying ruins the experience completely.

    I highly suggest that you turn on warmode next expansion and see how people actually play instead of passing judgment on how people play the game. You Either don’t know what you’re talking about or you are dodging.

    Playing safely with WM turned off doesn’t give you the right to speak on wpvp.

    There is a lot of it at the start of BFA, and it got killed with flying. Not because of “lack of content”

    And classic doesn’t work because it’s a shit game.
    It was dead before pathfinder 2 was released, aside from the sporadic instances of groups camping flight points and quest hubs to grief other players. Yeah, there was more at release, but there were also more players. Eventually those players stopped playing or turned wm off because the 10% exp/ap/gold isnt worth being corpse camped by 10-15 trolls (not referring to the playable race).

  2. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    No need to attack me personally on a pretty cut clear issue. I and many others like to see horde on the road so we can wipe the floor with them. Flying reduce that greatly. Period.
    So this boils down to you not getting what you want in a very specific context. How is that the fault of flying? You just want to attack players under conditions you dictate instead of having to adapt your tactics to the reality of the actual open world dynamic.

    Thank you for your honesty, at least. And thank you for revealing that your problem is not with flying, but with being bad at PVP.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    Your argument is that you are trying to incorporate other factors into why you don’t meet horde in wpvp.

    You first said that flying has no affect on this which made me consider the newspaper you wrote a pile of garbage. Thank god we at least get to enjoy the first half of the expansion at least before flying ruins the experience completely.

    I highly suggest that you turn on warmode next expansion and see how people actually play instead of passing judgment on how people play the game. You Either don’t know what you’re talking about or you are dodging.

    Playing safely with WM turned off doesn’t give you the right to speak on wpvp.

    There is a lot of it at the start of BFA, and it got killed with flying. Not because of “lack of content”

    And classic doesn’t work because it’s a shit game.
    Oh FFS..... You can't possibly be this dense.

    Do you know why there are a lot of people in war mode early on in an expansion? MAYBE because all the content is fresh, and there are still people interested in actively consuming it, as well as garnering that much needed WM bonus.

    Instead of how it is later in the expansion when there are less people doing the content......wait for it......

    ....BECAUSE THEY ALREADY DID IT AND MOVED ON TO OTHER THINGS!.


    /facepalm

    Can you PLEASE think about this for more than two seconds? If a person is already exalted with the reps they need, has completed all the quests, and finished all the achievements...why would they still be mucking around in War Mode in an area that has nothing of value for them?

    The only people who are going to be there are those who are specifically there to fight. And that number of people is nowhere near the same as when everyone is rushing to complete objectives when the content is still new.

    If you STILL don't understand this very basic concept, then I don't know what to tell you.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-11-13 at 01:57 PM.

  3. #503
    Pathfinder is fine as is. Doesn’t even need to be unlocked in the first patch. As it stands we end up being able to fly for a longer time during an expansion than not. Time wise it’s balanced well enough. Flying is not and never will be an integral part of the game and gameplay, it’s just a convenience.

    Instead of complaining about pathfinder what I’d like to see is a push for the flight whistle to be made account wide and usable everywhere.

  4. #504
    Quote Originally Posted by Seradi View Post
    Pathfinder is fine as is. Doesn’t even need to be unlocked in the first patch. As it stands we end up being able to fly for a longer time during an expansion than not. Time wise it’s balanced well enough. Flying is not and never will be an integral part of the game and gameplay, it’s just a convenience.

    Instead of complaining about pathfinder what I’d like to see is a push for the flight whistle to be made account wide and usable everywhere.
    I can get behind the flight master whistle idea.

  5. #505
    Quote Originally Posted by Sithalos View Post
    They said 1,000 times that they like the Pathfinder system and that they're not going to change it. Stop making threads about it.
    what a shame that playerbase dont like it..

    but since devs design game for themselves not for playerbase who cares eh ?

  6. #506
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    Once again, you make baseless assumptions.


    Just because you don’t wpvp, doesn’t mean everyone is. Everyone plays MMOs for different reasons.

    It’s you who are dodging the main issue. Flying is a major reason for death of wpvp. Wpvp is one of the few things that allows me to enjoy the game. If you don’t like getting ganked unfairly, dont turn wm off.
    Detailing a logical explanation for why there are obviously more people engaging in content when it's new, as opposed to less people engaging when it's old and had all its value replayed to death, is very specifically NOT a "baseless assumption".

    And what's more ridiculous about making that claim against me(despite the fact that I broke down my reasoning) is that you go on to make your own statement without ANY explanation, facts, reasoning, or details. Followed up immediately by an assumption about whether or not I engage in WPVP or not.

    Do you see the irony here?

    For the record, before Wow I spent a few years playing games like DAoC and UO. After that, I spent the first 5 years of WoW on a PVP server. You know...that glorious golden age of vanilla where flying didn't yet exist? Followed by 5 years of EVE online, which makes WoW's open world PVP look like something a monkey with head trauma smeared on a wall.

    So don't talk down to me about how I don't WPVP. My opinion of WPVP is based on over a decade of experience, with the latter half in a game that makes me fully understand just how insanely bad WoW's attempt at it is.

    Second, if you want to claim that Flying was the "death of WPVP", you're going to need to provide some details. Because it seems glaringly obvious that battlegrounds and arena did the lion's share of that by not only providing a more fair place to fight, but also better rewards and guaranteed access to both. Follow that up with cross-realm tech which obliterated faction and realm identity and reputation. Then Blizzard's repeated failure to add anything of worth or interest for WPVP objectives, largely due to their attempted focus on E-Sports for Arena and RBGS.

    Whatever damage you THINK flight did to WPVP is because you're refusing to look at any other factor. And even if we acknowledge that flying changed the dymanic of WPVP in a way which you personally dislike, Blizzard has provided you with exactly the thing you most desire: Classic.

    So please, take your unreasoning hatred and scapegoating of a situation you clearly don't comprehend, and either take the time to educate yourself fully or go to classic where you can get everything you want.

  7. #507
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    You can’t possibly expect me to read this pile of nonsense.

    And i never claimed it was the death of wpvp. I said it is the major reason.

    Other than admitting that flying put less people on the ground. You keep puking this nonsense that i stopped reading 2 posts ago.
    So you'd rather take your ball and go home angry than change your opinion based on real arguments? Do you realize the type of person this makes you out to be? Fine then. I guess I'll take that as you admitting defeat since your ad hominem fell apart, and you never actually provided ANY details for your point of view other than "Flying bad!"
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-11-14 at 02:00 PM.

  8. #508
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosteye View Post
    Looks like I won't be preordering.

    I'm sick of this garbage. Literally nobody complained before WOD about flying except like 1% of World PVPers, and another 1% of avid roleplayers who claimed "Muh immersion!"

    Even Blizzard's most avid fanbase in attendance at Blizzcon was largely unimpressed by this announcement
    "won't be pre-ordering"? That is a bit weak ass....how about "I will quit". What does pre-ordering has to do with it being in the final game...that you then buy on release?

    Look, there are IMHO two options here:

    -They are happy how it works, how it keeps ppl logging in and doing it (not that it is a huge effort...it seriously isn't)
    -They are bleeding subs because of it, people bombard them with pleas to stop it and they don't care because they love to lose money and piss ppl off.

    I let YOU decide

  9. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    "won't be pre-ordering"? That is a bit weak ass....how about "I will quit". What does pre-ordering has to do with it being in the final game...that you then buy on release?

    Look, there are IMHO two options here:

    -They are happy how it works, how it keeps ppl logging in and doing it (not that it is a huge effort...it seriously isn't)
    -They are bleeding subs because of it, people bombard them with pleas to stop it and they don't care because they love to lose money and piss ppl off.

    I let YOU decide
    I would buy Shadowlands and try it out if they said they were removing the time-gating of flying (available at launch). Is it my idea of perfect? No - but it would be a start in the right direction.

    Part 1:
    - Max level
    - Loremaster
    - Exploration
    - Drop the rep requirement

    Part 2 - removed

    ez way to make the playerbase happy

  10. #510
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    "won't be pre-ordering"? That is a bit weak ass....how about "I will quit". What does pre-ordering has to do with it being in the final game...that you then buy on release?

    Look, there are IMHO two options here:

    -They are happy how it works, how it keeps ppl logging in and doing it (not that it is a huge effort...it seriously isn't)
    -They are bleeding subs because of it, people bombard them with pleas to stop it and they don't care because they love to lose money and piss ppl off.

    I let YOU decide
    Probably more accurate to say they're making enough money from the cash shop, character xfers, race changes to allied races, and wow token to compensate for the drop in subs.

  11. #511
    If they'd add in a way to get rep at your own pace, Pathfinder threads would cease to exist.

    Seeing you need 12,000 rep and get 85 rep per WQ? That's not fun at all, I'm sorry. It needs major changing.

  12. #512
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosteye View Post

    ez way to make the playerbase happy
    I see two problems here:

    -nobody ever gave me a definition of "the playerbase"
    -people complaining on the forum do not represent what everybody else does. Just look at how few people actually post here in the statistics and even in this tiny thread, there are people disagreeing with you, some agree partially...so again..what is this playerbase?

    (if your playerbase would be in any agreement, you wouldn't have a 3 way split poll and only 17% in favor of removing it - now we can discuss what the 50% really mean with " remove the time-gating" - because to me they seem to be fine to at least grind out whatever rep is needed.

    I like to point out that there was a thread that asked the simple question of "flying yes or no" and over several hundred pages and thousands of posts...it didn't bring a clear answer.

    Yeah..."playerbase" and knowing what they want. The playerbase is everyone of us and we all want different things. Would I have a problem with paying 1000 gold and be able to fly? Nope. Not even with paying 10 000 or 100 000. But I also don't have a problem with Pathfinder as it is - well...I guess I have one..the gap between part 1 and part 2 is too long.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Probably more accurate to say they're making enough money from the cash shop, character xfers, race changes to allied races, and wow token to compensate for the drop in subs.
    No idea if it is more accurate - unless you can did your way through the quarterly reports and connect the dots. As it is none of these things have anything to do with flying.

    Again, I know it is an unpopular opinion, but just as Google, Amazon and who knows what else knows what porns you watch, what shit you buy, what stuff to recommend to you, Blizzard monitors all activities and knows what we do. If they pull pathfinder in one x-pac..sure people might grit their teeth. Do it in a second x-pac and people still stick with it...hm...maybe it is okay with them

    Whatever - i am sure of one thing. If data shows, people are quitting the game in masses because of pathfinder, J. Allan Brack or maybe Mr. Kotik himself is gonna take Ion aside and tell him to drop the shit.

    Because..why offset something everyone dislikes and quits over by shop services, when you can have everyone happily staying AND pay for shop services.
    Last edited by det; 2019-11-14 at 04:10 PM.

  13. #513
    Quote Originally Posted by Frosteye View Post
    Looks like I won't be preordering.

    I'm sick of this garbage. Literally nobody complained before WOD about flying except like 1% of World PVPers, and another 1% of avid roleplayers who claimed "Muh immersion!"

    Even Blizzard's most avid fanbase in attendance at Blizzcon was largely unimpressed by this announcement
    First off random numbers are BS.
    Your own god damm poll suggest that 80% is fine with path finder. But want something less time gated. So 1% is 80% :P.

    Secondly you brush off all reasons with Muh immersion. It has more reasons. Like blizzard not making content x amount of people just fly past. Why make a terrain when most people fly over it and dive bomb the quests. And more reasons....not going to tell them here...this is like the 10th i need flying now cry post.

    3th you make it sound like its heavy time gated....IT IS NOT. Right now pathfinder 1 gives you a bonus to speed, pathfinder 2 launches and is farmable/getting it is real fast. So the only time gating they do is saying....now its flying time. Could that be sooner...yeah. I think right now its most of the time patch 2 or 2,5. I think patch 1 or 1,5 would be better.

    4th We at least ( not even counting spells/items ) have not 1, not 2, but 3 Hearthstones. 1 for a inn, 1 for dalaran broken isle, 1 for garrison. So you can go around a zone really fast. And there are a LOT of flightpoints and you have a god damm flute that works in the last expansion and the current one. So you have 2 options to go around the zones real fast. And 3 options to get to big city's fast.

    Question: What is your problem with the current system??? You have enough way's to get around in zones and continents. So why do you need flying? answer me this!

  14. #514
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    I see two problems here:

    -nobody ever gave me a definition of "the playerbase"
    -people complaining on the forum do not represent what everybody else does. Just look at how few people actually post here in the statistics and even in this tiny thread, there are people disagreeing with you, some agree partially...so again..what is this playerbase?

    (if your playerbase would be in any agreement, you wouldn't have a 3 way split poll and only 17% in favor of removing it - now we can discuss what the 50% really mean with " remove the time-gating" - because to me they seem to be fine to at least grind out whatever rep is needed.

    I like to point out that there was a thread that asked the simple question of "flying yes or no" and over several hundred pages and thousands of posts...it didn't bring a clear answer.

    Yeah..."playerbase" and knowing what they want. The playerbase is everyone of us and we all want different things. Would I have a problem with paying 1000 gold and be able to fly? Nope. Not even with paying 10 000 or 100 000. But I also don't have a problem with Pathfinder as it is - well...I guess I have one..the gap between part 1 and part 2 is too long.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No idea if it is more accurate - unless you can did your way through the quarterly reports and connect the dots. As it is none of these things have anything to do with flying.

    Again, I know it is an unpopular opinion, but just as Google, Amazon and who knows what else knows what porns you watch, what shit you buy, what stuff to recommend to you, Blizzard monitors all activities and knows what we do. If they pull pathfinder in one x-pac..sure people might grit their teeth. Do it in a second x-pac and people still stick with it...hm...maybe it is okay with them

    Whatever - i am sure of one thing. If data shows, people are quitting the game in masses because of pathfinder, J. Allan Brack or maybe Mr. Kotik himself is gonna take Ion aside and tell him to drop the shit.

    Because..why offset something everyone dislikes and quits over by shop services, when you can have everyone happily staying AND pay for shop services.
    17% in favor of removing, but ~67% (2/3rds ) in favor of changing it. A clear majority agrees that the current incarnation of pathfinder is flawed.

  15. #515
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosteye View Post
    17% in favor of removing, but ~67% (2/3rds ) in favor of changing it. A clear majority agrees that the current incarnation of pathfinder is flawed.
    That is the awesome thing with polls, isn't it? 299 ppl voted in your little poll.

    TWOHUNDREDNINTYNINE.

    A clear majority of..what exactly? Are 299 ppl representing WoW? Even if there are under 1 million subs, hell....you do the maths how representative that is - but I give you a hint

    1% is 10 000
    0,1% is 1000

    ...and your poll participation of 299 ppl is even below that..like 0,033% or something?


    So..what representative conclusions do you honestly pull from that? You know...conclusions that Blizzard does not have more "hard" numbers on?

  16. #516
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    No idea if it is more accurate - unless you can did your way through the quarterly reports and connect the dots. As it is none of these things have anything to do with flying.
    I actually follow a few youtubers who did go through all the quarerly reports, as well as the earnings call, and conference call for questions from investors. Which is not to say that I'm some kind of expert. We're all just guessing. But the one thing I can be sure of is that the driving force in ANY corporation as large as Activision-Blizzard is money.

    So everything is related. If they can remove a loved feature, but by doing so it can be replaced by something else in the game that makes them money, they'll probably do it. In this case, it's my belief that by taking flight out of the design of the open world, they save money in development costs by streamlining the process. They only have to design in a single level, mostly 2-dimensional world. They don't have to update AI to handle 3-dimensional pathing, etc.

    And while it's not directly related, if they're making enough profit from other aspects of the game, they probably don't feel that the losses from people sore about flying are enough to warrant changing how it works. There might be other factors involved that we're not aware of, as I mention below.

    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Again, I know it is an unpopular opinion, but just as Google, Amazon and who knows what else knows what porns you watch, what shit you buy, what stuff to recommend to you, Blizzard monitors all activities and knows what we do. If they pull pathfinder in one x-pac..sure people might grit their teeth. Do it in a second x-pac and people still stick with it...hm...maybe it is okay with them

    Whatever - i am sure of one thing. If data shows, people are quitting the game in masses because of pathfinder, J. Allan Brack or maybe Mr. Kotik himself is gonna take Ion aside and tell him to drop the shit.
    I always hesitate to put a lot of stock in the idea that human beings, who are mostly divorced from the gaming community can make, good decisions based on that data. Brack is famously quoted with the "You think you do but you don't" line, and look how that turned out. Classic is now carrying the WoW title.

    The thing we have absolutely have to remember is that what the executives want is very much NOT the same thing as what is necessarily good for the health of the game. These are the guys who thought Diablo Immortal would carry Blizzcon as the big reveal, and who very much want to move into the mobile market. Not because the mobile market has good, quality, healthy games. But because that's where they can be the most predatory with their business.

    How does this relate to Pathfinder? Think about what Pathfinder actually does. It lets Blizzard use a more simple open world design formula(not that individual encounters or art are simple, but the overall approach to the open world), while simultaneously causing players to spend more time to complete objectives, and incentivizes players to complete more of the world by holding flight hostage.

    Hopefully you can see that while that probably does good things to the on-paper statistics of engagement and time played, it might not necessarily be all that enjoyable from a player perspective.



    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Because..why offset something everyone dislikes and quits over by shop services, when you can have everyone happily staying AND pay for shop services.
    I would like you to also consider what I said earlier about the fallibility of the human beings running the game. If it was just a robot making the decisions based on pure logic, then maybe it's because in the long run the calculations have been done, and it actually saves/makes them more money this way. And maybe those ARE the actual arguments being made internally at Blizzard to support the No-Flying approach to the game.

    But I highly suspect what it really comes down to is more human: Someone, probably Ion and a couple of supporters, really just don't personally like the idea. And as people are fond of saying: It's Blizzard's game and they can do what they want with it.

    But another important thing to consider: Until the game actually uses a modern zone design where flying is fully integrated into it, how can Blizzard possibly have accurate data on how well players react to it? They probably have super accurate data collected on how players respond to zones without flying, since those are all over the place. But when was the last zone that had flying in from the beginning? MoP?

    Given how the initial test was WoD, and how that test was so controversial, maybe it's time they revisited the concept, if only to update their data.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-11-14 at 10:35 PM.

  17. #517
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I actually follow a few youtubers who did go through all the quarerly reports, as well as the earnings call, and conference call for questions from investors. Which is not to say that I'm some kind of expert. We're all just guessing. But the one thing I can be sure of is that the driving force in ANY corporation as large as Activision-Blizzard is money.

    So everything is related. If they can remove a loved feature, but by doing so it can be replaced by something else in the game that makes them money, they'll probably do it. In this case, it's my belief that by taking flight out of the design of the open world, they save money in development costs by streamlining the process. They only have to design in a single level, mostly 2-dimensional world. They don't have to update AI to handle 3-dimensional pathing, etc.

    And while it's not directly related, if they're making enough profit from other aspects of the game, they probably don't feel that the losses from people sore about flying are enough to warrant changing how it works. There might be other factors involved that we're not aware of, as I mention below.



    I always hesitate to put a lot of stock in the idea that human beings, who are mostly divorced from the gaming community can make, good decisions based on that data. Brack is famously quoted with the "You think you do but you don't" line, and look how that turned out. Classic is now carrying the WoW title.

    The thing we have absolutely have to remember is that what the executives want is very much NOT the same thing as what is necessarily good for the health of the game. These are the guys who thought Diablo Immortal would carry Blizzcon as the big reveal, and who very much want to move into the mobile market. Not because the mobile market has good, quality, healthy games. But because that's where they can be the most predatory with their business.

    How does this relate to Pathfinder? Think about what Pathfinder actually does. It lets Blizzard use a more simple open world design formula(not that individual encounters or art are simple, but the overall approach to the open world), while simultaneously causing players to spend more time to complete objectives, and incentivizes players to complete more of the world by holding flight hostage.

    Hopefully you can see that while that probably does good things to the on-paper statistics of engagement and time played, it might not necessarily be all that enjoyable from a player perspective.





    I would like you to also consider what I said earlier about the fallibility of the human beings running the game. If it was just a robot making the decisions based on pure logic, then maybe it's because in the long run the calculations have been done, and it actually saves/makes them more money this way. And maybe those ARE the actual arguments being made internally at Blizzard to support the No-Flying approach to the game.

    But I highly suspect what it really comes down to is more human: Someone, probably Ion and a couple of supporters, really just don't personally like the idea. And as people are fond of saying: It's Blizzard's game and they can do what they want with it.

    But another important thing to consider: Until the game actually uses a modern zone design where flying is fully integrated into it, how can Blizzard possibly have accurate data on how well players react to it? They probably have super accurate data collected on how players respond to zones without flying, since those are all over the place. But when was the last zone that had flying in from the beginning? MoP?

    Given how the initial test was WoD, and how that test was so controversial, maybe it's time they revisited the concept, if only to update their data.
    Wow...it is pretty late where I am here, so it is gonna take me some time to digest what you wrote - but....thanks for the well thought out replies. There is good food for thought - but yeah...baseline in the end will always be what makes them most money and hopefully not short sighted cash in, ruining it in the long run.

    As you said "ANY corporation as large as Activision-Blizzard is money" - but ...hell...not only are they required by law to have the incentive to make money (not kidding...when you set up a business, you also have to do so with the intention to make money...it is an actual requirement in my country) - and that also applies to companies smaller than Blizzard

    Let's not kid ourselves. I am a single, self-employed male. My goal is to bloody well make money ^^

  18. #518
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    That is the awesome thing with polls, isn't it? 299 ppl voted in your little poll.

    TWOHUNDREDNINTYNINE.

    A clear majority of..what exactly? Are 299 ppl representing WoW? Even if there are under 1 million subs, hell....you do the maths how representative that is - but I give you a hint

    1% is 10 000
    0,1% is 1000

    ...and your poll participation of 299 ppl is even below that..like 0,033% or something?


    So..what representative conclusions do you honestly pull from that? You know...conclusions that Blizzard does not have more "hard" numbers on?
    let's go backwards. Would you say the majority of the playerbase wanted flying gone from the game?
    From the huge outcry that made Blizz not doing that says no. So then. If it's a COMPROMISE between the DEVS and the PLAYERS where the DEVS get to design the game how they want and the PLAYERS can keep flying does that tell to you that players are generally happy with this? ACCEPTING something doesn't mean HAPPY.
    It was called a COMPROMISE for god's sake. Ion got boo-d for pathfinder on the most fanfanatic event. That should tell you something.
    Last edited by Lei; 2019-11-14 at 11:00 PM.

  19. #519
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    let's go backwards. Would you say the majority of the playerbase wanted flying gone from the game?
    From the huge outcry that made Blizz not doing that says no. So then. If it's a COMPROMISE between the DEVS and the PLAYERS where the DEVS get to design the game how they want and the PLAYERS can keep flying tells to you that players are generally happy with this? ACCEPTING something doesn't mean HAPPY.
    It was called a COMPROMISE for god's sake.
    Nah, definitely not ( for "the majority of the playerbase wanted flying gone from the game")

    Yeah...calling it a compromise is a good call. Not that everyone will be happy with it, but I guess that is also part of a compromise.

    As I said..I am fine with how it is...but I would also be ok with the Wrath and MoP way of just paying a guy once you reached max level.

  20. #520
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    An lets start the same discussion for the one millionth time. They won't change it. Get over it.
    While we are beating dead horses, can we talk about high elves coming to the alliance again too?
    J. Allen Brack was right all along
    "You think you do, but you don't."

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