View Poll Results: What would you like seen done with Pathfinder?

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  • Remove pathfinder

    83 19.35%
  • Keep Pathfinder but remove the time-gating (available at launch)

    208 48.48%
  • Pathfinder is fine as-is

    138 32.17%
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  1. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Wow...it is pretty late where I am here, so it is gonna take me some time to digest what you wrote - but....thanks for the well thought out replies. There is good food for thought - but yeah...baseline in the end will always be what makes them most money and hopefully not short sighted cash in, ruining it in the long run.
    I REALLY wish that I could have this type of conversation more often. But I tend to let the trolls and haters push my buttons on this topic. When I really get down to it, I have spent a lot of time thinking about games in general, but game design in WoW specifically. Largely because it's one of my favorite games....well....used to be, anyway. :/

    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    As you said "ANY corporation as large as Activision-Blizzard is money" - but ...hell...not only are they required by law to have the incentive to make money (not kidding...when you set up a business, you also have to do so with the intention to make money...it is an actual requirement in my country) - and that also applies to companies smaller than Blizzard

    Let's not kid ourselves. I am a single, self-employed male. My goal is to bloody well make money ^^
    Look, I'm not going to get mad at anyone for wanting to make money. But I can, and will, get mad at someone for the WAY in which they make their money, if that way is underhanded or dishonest.

    And that's what gets to me about a lot of the AAA game companies. I look at games like The Witcher 3 as a prime example showing how making a quality game can be profitable. Without every opportunity being taken to lie, trick, coerce, or prey upon the customer wallet. It is absolutely possible to make a highly successful, profitable game without treating your employees and customers like absolute shit.

    So when I see things like Blizzard putting more store mounts than ever before in the cash shop, taking away player agency with things like the GCD, personal loot, and flight, as well as pushing predatory mobile trash like Diablo Immortal....I can't just sit back and say nothing. That crap pisses me off!

    Blizzard.... just make a quality game. Stop trying to trick or psychologically manipulate players out of the money. You have some of the most dedicated fans in the history of gaming. Just respect them, and respect your game. Stop following the trends of industry super-avarice and underhanded coercion. Go back to setting the trend and being the industry leader by dispensing with all that bottom-tier greed. People WILL respond positively to that.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-11-14 at 11:41 PM.

  2. #522
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I REALLY wish that I could have this type of conversation more often. But I tend to let the trolls and haters push my buttons on this topic. When I really get down to it, I have spent a lot of time thinking about games in general, but game design in WoW specifically. Largely because it's one of my favorite games....well....used to be, anyway. :/



    Look, I'm not going to get mad at anyone for wanting to make money. But I can, and will, get mad at someone for the WAY in which they make their money, if that way is underhanded or dishonest.

    And that's what gets to me about a lot of the AAA game companies. I look at games like The Witcher 3 as a prime example showing how making a quality game can be profitable. Without every opportunity being taken to lie, trick, coerce, or prey upon the customer wallet. It is absolutely possible to make a highly successful, profitable game without treating your employees and customers like absolute shit.

    So when I see things like Blizzard putting more store mounts than ever before in the cash shop, taking away player agency with things like the GCD, personal loot, and flight, as well as pushing predatory mobile trash like Diablo Immortal....I can't just sit back and say nothing. That crap pisses me off!

    Blizzard.... just make a quality game. Stop trying to trick or psychologically manipulate players out of the money. You have some of the most dedicated fans in the history of gaming. Just respect them, and respect your game. Stop following the trends of industry super-avarice and underhanded coercion. Go back to setting the trend and being the industry leader by dispensing with all that bottom-tier greed. People WILL respond positively to that.
    Again, thanks for the extensive reply. There isn't really anything for me to argue with. Nicely thought out. Have a good night and looking forward to more posts from you.

  3. #523
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    Ion got boo-d for pathfinder on the most fanfanatic event. That should tell you something.
    This is a super-important point that I think a lot of people don't fully appreciate or understand.

    A lot of detractors...of ANY argument...are fond of using the "vocal minority" line to undermine the validity of an opponent's stance. We see this ALL the time in the debate about flying.

    But here's the thing. The vocal minority argument might be true when it's just a few random people on the forums. But the people who go to Blizzcon are the most dedicated, and arguably financially stable, fans of Blizzard. These are the types of players that Blizzard wants to target. The ones with money, and the ones who are already predisposed to spend that money. FFS, they literally paid months in advance to travel to what boils down to a glorified advertisement for Blizzard products!

    If those kinds of players are booing your announcements, Blizzard needs to sit up and pay attention. We saw this with Diablo Immortal. We saw it again with Classic. While they might not be representative of the entire playerbase, they can be strongly considered as a sounding board for the limit of what you can get away with. These are literally, not figuratively.... the most dedicated and invested players.

    Blizzard has been doing much better about listening and acting on player feedback as of late. It's not perfect....it likely never will be. But Classic made Blizzard realize that sometimes players know what they're talking about. I would strongly hope that Blizzard will recognize and listen to players about Pathfinder as well. Not just random forum posters who "REEEEEEEEE!" about some random buff or nerf....but the most dedicated portion of their players who attend Blizzcon.

    I'm not saying the should instantly kowtow and bend to demands. But maybe actually stop and consider what people are saying about not liking Pathfinder before copy/pasting it into Shadowlands.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Again, thanks for the extensive reply. There isn't really anything for me to argue with. Nicely thought out. Have a good night and looking forward to more posts from you.
    Thank you. The fact that there are reasonable people out there who are willing to have this level of conversation is why I keep at it.

  4. #524
    Scarab Lord Vynestra's Avatar
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    good god people give up the pathfinder arguments already, jesus.

  5. #525
    imagine if pathfinder flying was implemented since tbc

  6. #526
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    what would you say about realms with flying enable and with flying disable or shards with that or an npc that turn your flying skills off so you can be on the ground all the time , i LOVE flying btw
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  7. #527
    Quote Originally Posted by MORGATH99 View Post
    what would you say about realms with flying enable and with flying disable or shards with that or an npc that turn your flying skills off so you can be on the ground all the time , i LOVE flying btw
    Yeah that could work

  8. #528
    Quote Originally Posted by MORGATH99 View Post
    what would you say about realms with flying enable and with flying disable or shards with that or an npc that turn your flying skills off so you can be on the ground all the time , i LOVE flying btw
    No offense, but why have an NPC to turn off your flying if you just...I don't know....don't use your flying mount?

    Anyway, I think the idea of turning off flight for everyone who has War Mode toggled on is the easiest, simplest, and most straightforward change that Blizzard could implement to shut up the "Flying hurts WPVP" people. They'd actually get what they want, too! So it's a win for them.

  9. #529
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d00dles View Post
    Alternative: Allow flying mounts within 30 yards of the flight point. Problem solved?

    This means players would be able to fly fast for the first quest (assuming the quest hub has a fp) but from there on out its ground mounts only. Players cant escape from pvp or unnecessary crazy flying rules. Seems like a decent compromise to me.
    There is an easier solution - turn flying back to 60% speed, this way both ways of transportation are relatively similar. Those who want to slog through a whole location over 15 minutes on a flying mount can do that, those who want to get to places quickly using ground mount/fly paths can also do that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosteye View Post
    I would buy Shadowlands and try it out if they said they were removing the time-gating of flying (available at launch). Is it my idea of perfect? No - but it would be a start in the right direction.

    Part 1:
    - Max level
    - Loremaster
    - Exploration
    - Drop the rep requirement

    Part 2 - removed

    ez way to make the playerbase happy
    Then flying is not a reward, but a glorified max level ability unlock.

    At this point blizzard can't do anything with flying besides delaying it or removing it completely (they could also turn it back to 60%, but people would consider that a removal of flying). Lots of players who play WoW in-and-out (as in "i do 4 daily quests over 10 minutes on all my 12 characters in just an hour, but without flying it takes 4 hours instead!") really like flying, because it's a very powerful tool to skip over terrain on top of being the fastest means of transportation, which shouldn't be the case in the first place. This system evolved into "flying or bust", because there is literally no benefit of using ground mount over flying mount, you are significantly slower, because the other option allows you to just skip over everything, and it's a problem that blizzard needs to solve. They decided to solve it with pathfinder, which is kinda "meh" solution that pleases everyone, besides vocal minority of players who want flying to be gone completely and those who want flying to be unlocked without effort.
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  10. #530
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nozari View Post
    imagine if pathfinder flying was implemented since tbc
    Hmmm...could be we would still have this discussion. Only as in "It is an archaic system and needs to go"

    There is constantly a new breed of players - or (and) ppl change their minds. After years of ppl begging to be able to fly in Azeroth, Blizzard revamps the whole world to allow it and then we get ppl saying how indroducing flying at all ever was the biggest mistake (and killed WoW...since we gotta have some hyperbole) - I don't remember anyone complaining about flying per se as a game mechanic...that didn't start until Legion.

    But fair enough - I get it that people are upset because something was handed to them first - and now you have to earn it again and again. Though I don't seem to remember anyone complaining that each and every alt had to level on foot in previous x-pacs and only got flying at max level (yeah, I know...some exceptions apply) while in Legion and MoP your alts can fly right off the bat if you unlocked pathfinder.

    I am in that weird situation where I start out on the ground, thinking...meh...this sucks. Then getting used to it as I learn to navigate new zones. Hunting treasures and exploring all corners becomes an adventure. The requirements to unlock flying just happen naturally. Explore, get rep, do questlines. And still..when that day hits where all requirements are fulfilled and I finally take off to the skies...ah....so awesome. And a sense of "yeah...finally....I achieved it".

    But I think I know how pissed off ppl who oppose pathfinder are. I bet as much as I was constantly pissed off over raid attunements in Vanilla and especially in TBC. And done't even get me started on needing to run normal 5 mans until you are blue in the face and finally reach revered with the faction tied to that 5 man before you can do it on heroic.

    Yet...again...for some reasons I don't remember people complaining. It was just shit you do in an MMO.

  11. #531
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    lSo everything is related. If they can remove a loved feature, but by doing so it can be replaced by something else in the game that makes them money, they'll probably do it. In this case, it's my belief that by taking flight out of the design of the open world, they save money in development costs by streamlining the process. They only have to design in a single level, mostly 2-dimensional world. They don't have to update AI to handle 3-dimensional pathing, etc.
    And yet we get people complaining that the world design is too convoluted and they struggle to find objectives or get around because of the need to find paths over or around hills and mountains. You seem to be confused with the simpler map design from when Blizz allowed flying and didn't even have to bother making paths to areas of content.

    How does this relate to Pathfinder? Think about what Pathfinder actually does. It lets Blizzard use a more simple open world design formula(not that individual encounters or art are simple, but the overall approach to the open world), while simultaneously causing players to spend more time to complete objectives, and incentivizes players to complete more of the world by holding flight hostage.
    Both world and content design are more complex after flight was removed, the daily system of pre-WoD Warcraft was hardly complicated and flying made it an absolute snooze fest if you were "forced" to do it by tying in (or "holding hostage ") end game progression.

    If you take your spin away from the description what you're saying is Blizz are using flight as an incentive that keeps people playing and giving them a reward they consider worthwhile. In general that is considered a good thing...

    Hopefully you can see that while that probably does good things to the on-paper statistics of engagement and time played, it might not necessarily be all that enjoyable from a player perspective.
    Here you're showing your blindspot again. Try to remember that your "player perspective" differs from others. Just because you're not keen on something it doesn't mean others don't find it enjoyable.

    I would like you to also consider what I said earlier about the fallibility of the human beings running the game. If it was just a robot making the decisions based on pure logic, then maybe it's because in the long run the calculations have been done, and it actually saves/makes them more money this way. And maybe those ARE the actual arguments being made internally at Blizzard to support the No-Flying approach to the game.

    But I highly suspect what it really comes down to is more human: Someone, probably Ion and a couple of supporters, really just don't personally like the idea. And as people are fond of saying: It's Blizzard's game and they can do what they want with it.
    Whilst Blizz can do what they want with the game I think it's a pretty daft idea to think that just a few devs would be able to dictate the design if it was rejected by a majority of the player base, disliked by the other devs and offered no improvements to gameplay. Blizz have been pretty quick to change tack if systems are considered to be an overall negative.

    But another important thing to consider: Until the game actually uses a modern zone design where flying is fully integrated into it, how can Blizzard possibly have accurate data on how well players react to it? They probably have super accurate data collected on how players respond to zones without flying, since those are all over the place. But when was the last zone that had flying in from the beginning? MoP?

    Given how the initial test was WoD, and how that test was so controversial, maybe it's time they revisited the concept, if only to update their data.
    Blizz already experimented with different ways of flight being integrated into the game and due to engine limitations, a general unsuitability for games like WoW to use 3D combat and it moving too far away from it's open-world RPG/action/adventure roots they decided it wasn't an Avenue worth exploring further - in WotLK they got as far as advertising aerial combat on the box before scrapping it as a bad idea. What you call "modern design" just isn't going to happen. On the other hand Blizz had seen plenty of positive results from "no-fly" content like Isle of Quel'danas, Firelands and the MoP islands, as well as negative results for the Cataclysm leveling experience and MoP's initial glut of dailies. Even WoD had a response that made them think the game wouldn't need flying at all.
    Last edited by Dhrizzle; 2019-11-15 at 09:10 AM.

  12. #532
    I am now running a friend thru BfA (we just finished Legion) and flying makes it so, so much better. If they removed flying altogether I probably wouldn't have alts, on the other hand I'd also probably be unsubbed. That's me and your mileage may differ.

  13. #533
    Imo, pathfinder shouldve been availible right away as a reward for reaching exalted with all the factions. (and later in a .1 patch nerfed to only require revered so that new players arent forced to grind too much old content).

    As with almost every other aspect of wow, its the timegating that annoys me. Not the grind. Im happy to grind, i hate waiting thou.
    None of us really changes over time. We only become more fully what we are.

  14. #534
    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    Imo, pathfinder shouldve been availible right away as a reward for reaching exalted with all the factions. (and later in a .1 patch nerfed to only require revered so that new players arent forced to grind too much old content).

    As with almost every other aspect of wow, its the timegating that annoys me. Not the grind. Im happy to grind, i hate waiting thou.
    That would be a terrible system. That outright rewards players for waiting to do content.

  15. #535
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    It was called a COMPROMISE for god's sake. Ion got boo-d for pathfinder on the most fanfanatic event. That should tell you something.
    He also got cheered. It was a clear 50/50

  16. #536
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    He also got cheered. It was a clear 50/50
    He literally says while it's happening that there's more boo.

  17. #537
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    He also got cheered. It was a clear 50/50
    Clear? Lol?

    He announced it, people started to boo. And you can see Ion's reaction to it, which sparks a bit of laughter from the crowd. There might have been some sporadic cheers for Ion's embarrassment at the boos, but there were no cheers for pathfinder. To claim that it was 50/50, much less "clear" is gold medal mental gymnastics.

  18. #538
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    That would be a terrible system. That outright rewards players for waiting to do content.
    It how all systems are nowdays.

    But i dont rly care either way. As long as I don't have to wait. My one and only wish for shadowlands is that content isnt needlessly gated. Its all i dare ask for at this point..
    None of us really changes over time. We only become more fully what we are.

  19. #539
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    It's funny how you neglect to mention that a player who attempts to gank like that, but isn't himself prepared for the inevitable CC, is being punished for his mistake. Especially in retail wow, where if said player attempts to mount up and fly away, you can bomb them with the net.


    The only difference here is that you, and people like you, seem to think that flying is to blame. When in truth it's your own lack of ability to adapt to a different dynamic of world PVP. You don't like that flying exists in the dynamic, so rather than adapt, you attempt to demonize the thing that you don't like.





    I stopped reading here. Again, someone or something you don't like gets demonized. It's blatantly obvious where your opinion stems from; and it's not a place of logic of objectivity. Good day.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Failing to understand the argument I made isn't the same thing as me "dodging". I'm sorry you can't perceive anything that isn't directly effecting you, or understand concepts beyond what you immediately see. But that doesn't make me wrong. You're seeing two things: Flying and a lack of PVP targets. You make the assumption that the two are connected. But when someone comes along and provides an alternative explanation for why one is not directly causing the other, rather than consider carefully what's being explained, you get mad that someone doesn't share your view.

    To the both of you: If you so badly want world PVP without flying, then Phase 2 of Classic is about to begin. Go there. Enjoy yourselves.
    "you can net them" yeah if u give my net 5000 yards range dude. you are absolutely off your rocker if you think that is the case. the net is the most worthless shit, you don't think we've all tried to make that work you narcisistic basement dweller? it doesn't work in practise, and you would know that, the only time the fucking net/shell works is if people are hovering AFK. so yeah, flying is to blame, for Wpvp and so much more. as I said, all it does is take away from the game, not add to it. it reduces immersion you get to experience less of the content that was created for you, wasting the effort of the entire development team, wether its Art, Sound, or anything else. and honestly, im confident that anyone who disagrees is being Intelectually dishonest. they all know, but they don't actually want to experience the game. they don't like the game, they like a few select things in the game. such as the Pokemon shit, or collections, or maybe they only like Arena, or Only like Raiding. Personally i fucking hate the game right now, still love raiding. but that isn't Wow, that is just raiding. I used to like everything, From BG's to Arena's, to Raiding, to dungeons, and even the retardedly long attunement quests from TBC, I've spent thousands of hours exploring the world, I've wall jumped everywhere, under and ontop of every major city and Vista, and that is different, that is liking the game. and I'm sorry that you don't, I don't either anymore, and it sucks. but objectively Flying was a mistake and only helps to hurt the game and you know it, so stop fighting for ur right to skip parts of the content.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    The heck are you talking about? I was referring to how flying lead to less interaction in general between factions.

    Flying is the major reason for killing wpvp.

    - - - Updated - - -




    Dont mind sircowdog, he seems to think that lack of content is the reason world pvp is dead. ( even though it was alive and well until flying was unlocked in bfa). He just refuse to admit that and keeps dodging.
    his issue seems to be with Wpvp iteself though, he just seems to think its bullying or some shit.

  20. #540
    Quote Originally Posted by Tumile View Post
    narcisistic basement dweller
    Do you want your point of view to be taken seriously? Next time avoid these:

    1) Wall of text
    2) Lack of grammar.
    3) Opening with an insult.
    4) Logical Fallacies:
    • 4a: Sound is harmed by flight(really?)
    • 4b: Fun/Immersion is subjective
    • 4c: Raiding isn't wow(really?)
    • 4d: Straw Man(Claiming I want to skip everything)
    • 4e: Straw Man(Assumption that I have problems with WPVP. Bullying(really?))

    I get it. You don't agree with my point of view. But seriously, literally everything about your post is based on false premise, bad presentation, and utterly made up points that have nothing to do with where I actually stand on the topic.

    Next time try actually reading with the intent to understand instead of insult.

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