View Poll Results: What would you like seen done with Pathfinder?

Voters
429. This poll is closed
  • Remove pathfinder

    83 19.35%
  • Keep Pathfinder but remove the time-gating (available at launch)

    208 48.48%
  • Pathfinder is fine as-is

    138 32.17%
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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    Removing flying completely was most likely a bluff that made the players easily and happily accept the "compromise".

    Players should really educate themselves in marketing and psychological strategies in businesses......... sigh.
    The realized during WotLK they made a mistake but couldn't really go back on it. I actually believe they wanted to remove it. Just in the time it takes to make each zone fully 3D and not perspective tricks is immense. Hell the artist doing the raid zone on stage this year at Blizzcon mentioned how nice it was to only have to do the fronts of certain structures. I don't think it was a bluff at all.

  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by Frosteye View Post
    Looks like I won't be preordering.
    By even considering to preorder you're already part of the problem.

    You forgot the option 'make the requirements more ridiculous'

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    The realized during WotLK they made a mistake but couldn't really go back on it. I actually believe they wanted to remove it. Just in the time it takes to make each zone fully 3D and not perspective tricks is immense. Hell the artist doing the raid zone on stage this year at Blizzcon mentioned how nice it was to only have to do the fronts of certain structures. I don't think it was a bluff at all.
    For sure it was a cost cutting thing for the most part, like you said. You see subtle and not so subtle budget cuts everywhere in the game. But as a player, do you really care about blizzard's pocketmoney issues? Should you care in a buy to play, sub based game, with microtransactions? Hint: this is why they are trying to make it look like it's somehow bad for the GAME. "We made a mistake". Really? How? This is when you see world PvP coming up (pretty much the ONLY real game related reason why flying is "bad"), but really, it is a weak argument seeing how world pvp was destroyed with arenas and bgs. What you see in BfA is not natural pvp. IE the one you saw in vanilla, or to some extent in classic. If there were no bonus/achievement etc, most players would just disable it.

    Most other mmos embrace flying, why is that? Their devs are not whining that they have to make 3d worlds, and they are fine with how long their content last.
    Poor blizzard. They have to make 3d worlds in 2019. I mean what an unreasonable expectation from the world's biggest mmo.

    Whenever the devs (Ion) says something that tries to justify some stupid ass decision in the game, just try at least to look further than "but but Ion has said so".

    "Divide and conquer" is what's happening in WoW. I remember back in the days the playerbase stood up as one when some idiotic decision was made. Now? Small groups of people are pointing and blaming each others. "I am a petbattler and I am FINE with personal loot in mythic raids!" "I am a cutting edge mythic raider who doesn't care about collectibles but mounts in paragon boxes are fine! What, you want everything for free?" "I log in weekly twice for 2 hours, and AP is fine! What farming?" etcetcetc.
    Last edited by Lei; 2019-11-12 at 04:15 PM.

  4. #464
    This poll is definitely some confirmation bias that the loudest people always think they have the majority opinion yet they’re almost always the minority.

  5. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    A tool to circumvent PvP can only be used in PvP mode? Seems backwards.
    Which means that there should be a relatively high chance of Blizzard implementing it
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefhammer View Post
    The realized during WotLK they made a mistake but couldn't really go back on it. I actually believe they wanted to remove it. Just in the time it takes to make each zone fully 3D and not perspective tricks is immense. Hell the artist doing the raid zone on stage this year at Blizzcon mentioned how nice it was to only have to do the fronts of certain structures. I don't think it was a bluff at all.
    I don't think they could get away with "stage illusion" scenery in the open world when there are so many tools like slowfall, levitate, glide, goblin-gliders, gravity inverters and the like plus flightpaths. The time taken to ensure players won't be able to get to the wrong angles will probably cancel whatever savings they might make leaving the roof off a couple of buildings.

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    I don't think they could get away with "stage illusion" scenery in the open world when there are so many tools like slowfall, levitate, glide, goblin-gliders, gravity inverters and the like plus flightpaths. The time taken to ensure players won't be able to get to the wrong angles will probably cancel whatever savings they might make leaving the roof off a couple of buildings.
    liberal use of invisible walls. + most people won't bother with it after going tourist once or twice.

    there was that rock in orgrimmar you could get into, had a fancy room and all, in cata i think it was. maybe its still there who knows. never was more than a dozen orso people in it and that thing was relatively famous as far as glitching terrain goes.

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    For sure it was a cost cutting thing for the most part, like you said. You see subtle and not so subtle budget cuts everywhere in the game. But as a player, do you really care about blizzard's pocketmoney issues? Should you care in a buy to play, sub based game, with microtransactions? Hint: this is why they are trying to make it look like it's somehow bad for the GAME. "We made a mistake". Really? How? This is when you see world PvP coming up (pretty much the ONLY real game related reason why flying is "bad"), but really, it is a weak argument seeing how world pvp was destroyed with arenas and bgs. What you see in BfA is not natural pvp. IE the one you saw in vanilla, or to some extent in classic. If there were no bonus/achievement etc, most players would just disable it.
    World PvP isn't the only gameplay reason for the decision, in fact back in WoD I think Blizz said PvP was hardly a consideration. Open world games play very differently when you have access to flight and a combination of players rejecting "flying" content in WotLK and Cata plus the engine's unsuitability to 3D content meant they decided to focus on ground based gameplay which represented the vast majority of WoW's content.

    Around the same time WoD was being developed one of the guys at Bethesda was talking about leaving the Levitate spell out of Skyrim and they had pretty much the same reasoning as Blizzard - any plans they made for encounters, accessing areas or just how players encountered a view were made pointless if people could just fly or float over the area.

    Most other mmos embrace flying, why is that? Their devs are not whining that they have to make 3d worlds, and they are fine with how long their content last.
    Poor blizzard. They have to make 3d worlds in 2019. I mean what an unreasonable expectation from the world's biggest mmo.
    Blizz are still making a 3D world regardless of the availability of flight so I'm not too sure what your point is trying to be here.

    Whenever the devs (Ion) says something that tries to justify some stupid ass decision in the game, just try at least to look further than "but but Ion has said so".

    "Divide and conquer" is what's happening in WoW. I remember back in the days the playerbase stood up as one when some idiotic decision was made. Now? Small groups of people are pointing and blaming each others. "I am a petbattler and I am FINE with personal loot in mythic raids!" "I am a cutting edge mythic raider who doesn't care about collectibles but mounts in paragon boxes are fine! What, you want everything for free?" "I log in weekly twice for 2 hours, and AP is fine! What farming?" etcetcetc.
    The trouble is you seem to be getting confused between "I don't like this" and "this is idiotic." It seems the player base is overall happy or complacent with the way flying has been handled over the past few expansions. Funnily enough the last time I remember there being an outcry ubiquitous enough to get Blizz to change course was probably mid way through WoD when they said no flying ever again.

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by Mighty Parrot View Post
    Buh-bye. Won’t miss you.

    I mean seriously, why not just...I dunno...enjoy the fucking game and have fun instead of bitching about not flying instantly.

    Jesus, you fuckers want everything given to you at the start.
    Maby they can't enjoy the game without flying?

  10. #470
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    I don't think they could get away with "stage illusion" scenery in the open world when there are so many tools like slowfall, levitate, glide, goblin-gliders, gravity inverters and the like plus flightpaths. The time taken to ensure players won't be able to get to the wrong angles will probably cancel whatever savings they might make leaving the roof off a couple of buildings.
    This. After all, their decision to leave Silvermoon unfinished because time was ticking out during the making of BC has bitten them in the ass more than once already. And if that wasn't enough, they have presumably learned from the flight debacle back in WoD, when they really thought they could remove flight once and for all, and get away with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Around the same time WoD was being developed one of the guys at Bethesda was talking about leaving the Levitate spell out of Skyrim and they had pretty much the same reasoning as Blizzard - any plans they made for encounters, accessing areas or just how players encountered a view were made pointless if people could just fly or float over the area.
    Come on, I'm clearly talking about FF and Guild wars even.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Blizz are still making a 3D world regardless of the availability of flight so I'm not too sure what your point is trying to be here.
    It was an answer. Read the whole context.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    The trouble is you seem to be getting confused between "I don't like this" and "this is idiotic." It seems the player base is overall happy or complacent with the way flying has been handled over the past few expansions.
    The booing at the Q&A to the pathfinder answer was pretty considerable.
    Idiotic in my opinion or what I meant by that means that someone is talking but what he is saying is objectively bullshit. It doesn't have to do anything with what I like or don't like. Like taking out the pvp vendors because players can't find them. I don't even pvp but I know, or at least HOPE for the sake of humanity that it's just a facepalmingly idiotic bullshit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Funnily enough the last time I remember there being an outcry ubiquitous enough to get Blizz to change course was probably mid way through WoD when they said no flying ever again.
    You clearly don't understand what "Divide and conquer" means in regards the example with WoW I brought.

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    This. After all, their decision to leave Silvermoon unfinished because time was ticking out during the making of BC has bitten them in the ass more than once already. And if that wasn't enough, they have presumably learned from the flight debacle back in WoD, when they really thought they could remove flight once and for all, and get away with it.
    Was Silvermoon a time thing? I thought (as with Stormwind) it was to save system resources back when WoW's minimum specs were much lower than now.

  13. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Was Silvermoon a time thing?
    Yes, it was (afaik), since Azuremyst/Bloodmyst are actually ready for flight, and it's turned off just for the sake of parity.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    BC servers, WotLK servers. They are pretty much good till MoP. That's like 6-8...10? more years to surf on the back of old expansions.
    Sadly that's probably the case. Maybe it will give them time to hire new leadership that isn't creatively bankrupt.

    I think the devs on the line and in the trenches are killing it. You can see the obvious quality of the art team and underlying foundation of the game's programming is solid, and clearly a product of hard work and dedication.

    I don't want people to misunderstand me. It's not all, or even most of Blizzard devs and employees I'm sick of. It's the people calling the shots.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    You say that you don't see people "because there is no content". I find that outrageous, and I dunno why you think that. when people are flying, you don't see them in the ground. > less people to encounter.

    If you can't see that then we have a problem here.

    I'm sorry man. I guess this is where our conversation should stop and agree to disagree.
    No...god dammit. That's not what I'm saying. It's not that there's no content. It's that the content that is there isn't good enough or deep enough to keep people in the open world. Even if flying didn't exist, players would just do their daily WQs in 10-30 seconds, then leave. You STILL wouldn't see people in the open world.

    So yeah, we're clearly disagreeing. And it's because you're not thinking. All you're seeing is what's directly in front of you instead of considering the actual source of the problem.

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    An lets start the same discussion for the one millionth time. They won't change it. Get over it.
    They brought back classic after 10 years of people asking for it. They also changed flying in the first place because people asked for it. The same may be possible to bring about a change to the current policy regarding flying mounts.

  16. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by Frosteye View Post
    Looks like I won't be preordering.

    I'm sick of this garbage. Literally nobody complained before WOD about flying except like 1% of World PVPers, and another 1% of avid roleplayers who claimed "Muh immersion!"

    Even Blizzard's most avid fanbase in attendance at Blizzcon was largely unimpressed by this announcement
    This game existed for a longer time WITH the Pathfinder - than without that specific requirement. Obviously given the poll results - this is the new normal and nothing that bothers people.

    But if flying makes or breaks it for you - as if the entire game was based on you flying - then you didn't like the game to start with anyway. This is a reward - a challenge you must accomplish - like or not.

    TBH - people like you should find other games instead, like FX:

    My Flying Little Pony -

    Or;

    Flight Simulator.
    Last edited by 12yoPlayedSinceClassic; 2019-11-12 at 11:35 PM.

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by 12yoPlayedSinceClassic View Post
    This game existed for a longer time WITH the Pathfinder - than without that specific requirement. Obviously given the poll results - this is the new normal and nothing that bothers people.
    Burning Crusade release date was 2007. january. Warlords of draenor "compromise" pathfinder patch (6.2) was 2015. june. Not to forget that flying was actually enabled even later, with 6.2.2 in September. Even if you take just WoD's release, when officially the dev statement was "flying is coming, just not with launch", which was in 2014. november, your "math" is still years off.
    Last edited by Lei; 2019-11-13 at 12:45 AM.

  18. #478
    [QUOTE=SirCowdog;51867970]

    I think the devs on the line and in the trenches are killing it. You can see the obvious quality of the art team and underlying foundation of the game's programming is solid, and clearly a product of hard work and dedication...

    - - - Updated - - -

    I just wanted to separate out that part of the post because I see it a lot as a defense for the decision to change flight. I know the art and amount of effort put into developing WoW is important to some players and I'm not discounting it at all. There are many reasons why people play WoW. The thing is, the art and effort which goes into it aren't important too me. I care about systems and how they interact with other systems which is why PvP and soloing raid content is where I have the most fun. Being grounded and forced to grind out a bunch of cosmetic requirements because the devs are proud of the work isn't a persuasive argument to me.

  19. #479
    [QUOTE=WinningOne;51868538]
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post

    I think the devs on the line and in the trenches are killing it. You can see the obvious quality of the art team and underlying foundation of the game's programming is solid, and clearly a product of hard work and dedication...

    - - - Updated - - -

    I just wanted to separate out that part of the post because I see it a lot as a defense for the decision to change flight. I know the art and amount of effort put into developing WoW is important to some players and I'm not discounting it at all. There are many reasons why people play WoW. The thing is, the art and effort which goes into it aren't important too me. I care about systems and how they interact with other systems which is why PvP and soloing raid content is where I have the most fun. Being grounded and forced to grind out a bunch of cosmetic requirements because the devs are proud of the work isn't a persuasive argument to me.
    But it doesn't matter what it means to you because the devs are the one who feel that way and have made the game accordingly.

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by WinningOne View Post
    Being grounded and forced to grind out a bunch of cosmetic requirements because the devs are proud of the work isn't a persuasive argument to me.
    I very much agree. I was simply drawing the distinction between the leadership and the line devs.

    Honestly, if I was on the art and world design team and saw my hard work being filled with trash-tier content and copy/paste kill-x quests, I'd be pissed!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    But it doesn't matter what it means to you because the devs are the one who feel that way and have made the game accordingly.
    It does matter if Blizzard wants to see subs and activity continue to decline, or actually see a resurgance.

    "You think you do but you don't." should be enough evidence of that.

    Blizzard can list all the reasons they want for why they're doing the game this way, but when you look at the response to that design in hard numbers, it's pretty obvious the no-flying philosophy isn't doing well for retail.

    If not for the release of classic, WoW would be at an alltime low. I'm not saying flight will fix everything. But the overall approach to designing the game needs to change, and I DO believe that including flight in the open world is an important part of that. Not just because I want flying, but because of what it represents.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2019-11-13 at 05:29 AM.

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