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  1. #1
    Herald of the Titans TheWorkingTitle's Avatar
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    "Mages are masters of the elements" - Brian Holinka

    FINALLY.

    After six years of me harping on this very simple concept that was the foundation of Mage from Classic to MoP, we're finally being restored to being Mages and not just Icecallers, Pyromaniacs, and Arcanomancers. No longer will we be one trick ponies, pigeon-holed into a specialization. We will be mages again, because we are masters of the Arcane.


    "If you change specs right now, it's almost like you change classes with how much some specs change." - Holinka

    "Classes are [supposed to be] made up of elements from each spec, then the spec doubles down on it." - Holinka

    "Mages will get Frostbolt, Fire Blast, Arcane Explosion [back]! Mages are master of elements." - Holinka

    "There are just some of the abilities returning in Shadowlands." - Holinka



    Here are some of my posts over the years:



    April, 2014: "One over-arching theme with the Mage changes is that while in any specific specialization, Mages are losing the ability to use multiple important spells while in said specialization.

    A Mage is a master of arcane magic and with such should NEVER be MORE limited in their abilities to use said spells.

    There should not be a pruning if none of these spells are mandatory to use. They are situational and give flavor and complexity to the Mage class when used correctly. Anecdotally, I have never come across someone in all my years complaining about the Mage classes bloat of ability."


    April, 2014 "When you master Arcane magic you have to ability to call upon any of the 3 schools at your disposal. Talents only enhance your ability to do so."


    April, 2014 - "Talent specialization is meant to enhance the power the Mage wields over the Arcane magic. They always could use all spells and this design shift is to completely undo that. You either want it to happen, or don't like - like me. Mages (with the WoD changes) went from being the caster with access to 3 schools of magic to having only 1.


    August, 2014 - "A Mage is a master of Arcane Magic (meaning all 3). Frost and Fire are sects of that magic and a Mage is able to utilize all 3 at the same time. A specialization means that you can do a little extra of a part of that sect of Arcane Magic. A Fire Mage isn't only supposed to be able to use Fire spells. That's not a Mage..that's something entirely different.


    November, 2016 - "This isn't a small thing at all. What you speak of is what Mages were from Classic to MoP. That is the vast majority the game's history. The entire foundation of being a "Mage" is being a master of the Arcane. Like you said, they draw from all three trees of the Arcane, and then specialize in one to be a bit better in that specific tree (while still being able to use spells from the other two trees).

    What we have had since WoD on is more akin to Pyromaniacs, Icecallers, and Arcanomancers. True Mages, true purists, those who played Mage from Classic to MoP know what a travesty this is. We aren't Mages anymore. Haven't been for years.
    "


    December, 2016 - "Roleplayers? How about Mage players from Classic-->MoP (you know, the vast majority of the game).

    I've said this so many times but I'll say it again.

    Mages are "masters of the Arcane", able to draw from all three trees in battle at the same time. They specialized in one tree to become more proficient at that type of arcane, but used the other two trees as well. That is what the entire idea of being a Mage meant.

    Now? We aren't Mages anymore (unless you want to devil's advocate that Fire can still use Frost Nova/Ring of Frost/Counterspell etc. (lol) )

    We are now Pyromaniacs, Icecallers, and Arcanomancers. This entire idea of Mages only being one sect of the Arcane is frankly misguided and ignorant. You don't know what a Mage is if you think what OP thinks.
    "



    So, I just wanted to remind everyone that doubted me and disagreed with me that I was right all along. Vindication has never felt so sweet.
    You think you don't, but you do

  2. #2
    True story, but don't quote this idiot
    Shadowlands is real world
    The Maw is China
    The Jailer is China government
    Sylvanas is Blizz

  3. #3
    Bro, you are going to get 3 spells from the other specs, that you probably will never gonna use, you wont be master of anything.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazdum View Post
    Bro, you are going to get 3 spells from the other specs, that you probably will never gonna use, you wont be master of anything.
    ofc he will use them.. its not all about your pve rotation, smartass

    also they showed 3, but they said that its just a part of what's gonna return

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by iosdeveloper View Post
    True story, but don't quote this idiot
    Yeah hard to go all in on trust or hype when Holinka is the guy fixing things. He was so far in over his head with pvp that it is hard to trust his ideas for anything now.
    "Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

  6. #6
    It's a start. I still feel like fire mage would play too bland even with Frostbolt and Arcane Explosion returning, although that is obviously already a huge step in the right direction.

    As far as returning abilities are concerned, though, I'd also like to see Cone of Cold and Alter Time make a comeback. Toolkit-wise, that would 100% satisfy me (and as far as I know, they even alluded to AT making a comeback at an earlier point).

    CoC, on the other hand, is just a must-have when it comes to questing or PvP. Fire mage has become so bad at keeping opponents at bay compared to it's earlier iterations. Frostbolt will obviously vastly improve fire's ability to kite already but CoC was always an essential tool for taking on and kiting multiple opponents. It's a fair trade off IMO, offering a big slow but only on targets that are very close already.

    On top of being incredibly useful and iconic to the mage class, blasting enemies with a whirl of frost, it's a very satisfying ability to use. Among all the abilities, this one I hope to see return the most.
    Last edited by Lodravel; 2019-11-03 at 02:11 PM.

  7. #7
    The problem was they went a little too far with the Artifacts thingy. They had to link them to specs and thus the specs had to be made unique. And that just carried over into 8.0.

  8. #8
    I 'm all for specs having cross-spec-abilities again

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by pppbroom View Post
    Yeah but what's the point of having a frostbolt if you never use it because your rotation is all fire? I mean, yay, extra button but what's the point?
    To slow? Something to cast when you're locked from your school?

  10. #10
    do you remember the good ol' days when all rogue specs played 99% the same. Swapping from sin to sub felt more like changing a single talent than a spec. If you really want these days back - wow.

  11. #11
    "Here are 3 abilities you may or may not bother to bind and use. Love us please"

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWorkingTitle View Post
    "Mages will get Frostbolt, Fire Blast, Arcane Explosion [back]! Mages are master of elements." - Holinka
    Heck, then who is Elemental Shamans or Shamans as WHOLE?

    "Mages will get Frostbolt, Fire Blast, Arcane Explosion [back]! Mages are master of elements." - Holinka -> and we see them with only 2 (Fire + Water)

    Then rename them into Elementalists...... or add lightning,earth,wind skills.

    For me Mages were always "Masters of Magic, especially Arcane magic"
    Last edited by cocomen2; 2019-11-03 at 11:39 PM.
    I want these classes in new x-pac :Necromancer,Runemaster,Warden,BladeMaster,DarkRanger,Alchemist,Lich,Tinker,SpiritWalker
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Necromancer and Dark Ranger are rip offs of already existing classes
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    Not true at all, people with this view have no imagination.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by cocomen2 View Post
    Heck, then who is Elemental Shamans or Shamans as WHOLE?

    "Mages will get Frostbolt, Fire Blast, Arcane Explosion [back]! Mages are master of elements." - Holinka -> and we see them with only 2 (Fire + Water)

    Then rename them into Elementalists...... or add lightning,earth,wind skills.

    For me Mages were always "Masters of Magic, especially Arcane magic"
    I'm a mage main and I agree with you. But I also agree with OP. Truth be told, Holinka made a poor choice of words.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by pppbroom View Post
    Yeah but what's the point of having a frostbolt if you never use it because your rotation is all fire? I mean, yay, extra button but what's the point?
    When are you going to cast frostbolt as a fire mage? While leveling and nowhere else. All the "class identity > spec identity" from Blizzcon 2019 is really only going to affect leveling. And for certain specs/classes, pvp.

    Note that I'm not saying depruning is a bad thing; it's just not nearly going to be so groundbreaking as people are hyping themselves up to think. Though I admit I am curious if this means that Survival's run as a melee spec is over. Shame if it is; I rather liked it even if I don't main hunter (they can't tank or heal so I can't justify maining one).
    Do not ask questions for which you do not want the answers.

  15. #15
    Diablo sorcerer is master of elements
    Warcraft mage is more of a reality bender, attuned with some elements
    Shadowlands is real world
    The Maw is China
    The Jailer is China government
    Sylvanas is Blizz

  16. #16
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nefarious Tea View Post
    When are you going to cast frostbolt as a fire mage? While leveling and nowhere else.
    Depends on dungeon and raid design. If some mobs/bosses can go fire immune then you'll want Frost or Arcane spells and likewise for other specs. It might not even be immunity - could be a tactic when a mob needs to be slowed, for example.

    this is what a lot of people forget - specs/abilities usually are tied pretty closely to how they want to design encounters (or vice versa.... "Now that mages can use spells from all trees, we can do this in a fight..." )

  17. #17
    My only issue is he used the term "Elements". Mages aren't actually masters of the elements. That's obviously shamans. Mages shape magic itself and yes it does take the form of elemental spells like Fireball and Frostbolt, but it's still pure magic. As opposed to a Shaman's magic which is directly from the elements.

    Basically a Mages Fireball is formed by twisting cosmic/arcane energy. Shamans Flame Shock is formed by calling on the elements.

  18. #18
    Ugh... I'm already dreading this "unpruning"... non-rotational abilities are fine, but rotations already have the required "critical mass" of abilities, and any duplicates will be pure bloat.

    If a Frost mage already has Ice Lance as an instant cast that works with their kit... what use will Fire Blast really have? Is it there just to say "now I cast the orange spell... and now the blue spell... and now the orange spell"? Are they useless for the other specs, but they're there just so people can goof off?

    If this was made in a more customizable way, it would be cool, but just throwing random specs' spells just to pretend "mastery of elemental magic" is atrocious design.

    It doesn't help with action bar muscle memory, also.

    Now I wish mages had stances with their own action bars. At least I'd be able to change to "frosty" "fiery" and "arcaney" when on Frost, Fire or Arcane and use the keybinds I already have for area spells, basic spam, instants and such for the other ones they're putting there. That way at least, when I'm Fire and I need to stop spamming Fireball and spam Frosbolt (because the slow I guess), I can just press the same BASIC SPAM button I use for Fireball and not try to reach an absurd keybind for a spam which would be unfit to be on a rotational keybind spot, while moving.

    This is going to drive me nuts...
    Once upon a time... the end. Next time, try twice upon a time.

  19. #19
    For this thing to work and not to be the dead dull state of Classic where you got a few buttons but ever only use two, they need very serious design on how all these abilities and talents play together. I hoped for major class overhauls, but they said they are not doing that, so I'm quite curious how you make all these abilities into a polished modern design in 2020 without serious reworks.

  20. #20
    My question is, what is an arcane mage going to do with frostbolt? I'm all for returning abilities and removing spec restrictions but things like this don't make a whole lot of sense now.

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