"Mages are masters of the elements" - Brian Holinka

[Loveletters]

...are you serious op? yes, pat yourself on the back for having an opinion that may be similar to the design intent of the class. i think mages should be fun, been saying that for years so when then they said they wanted them to be fun first thing i did was make a post about how vindicated i feel. seriously this is so pathetic

[Aggrophobic]

Oh yeah, a few extra abilities you'll never use. Fantastic.
Most classes are the very same as in BfA, they litterly did no work what so ever on that. Well the same just without the traits and the extra skills we got in the last patch so in reality you'll actually have less than now. Amazing.

[Gherothar]

The fact that you had to complain about the same thing for five years and Blizzard finally rotated (kinda) to that design doesn't mean you "were right all along". It was five years, iteration after iteration, which is going to change again at some point in the future. lmao. If they change it again and someone who spent 6, 7 or 10 years complaining about the exact opposite thing you did, will it mean they "were right all along"? You really needed a win, huh.

[Video Games]

Not that I mind but encounter design doesnt favor ae and i dont pvp so i dont need frostbolt. I guess giving players agency back is very nice though

[Nephys]

I really don't think its gonna make much different, a frost mage isn't gonna cast fireball as part of their rotation, and a fire mage isn't gonna cast arcane blast, but if having them on your spellbook makes you happy, sure, why not.

Now if we are talking about making a mage cast other element spells on their rotation, such as a frost mage casting fire blast, I would be opposed to that, when I play frost mage I really wanna play a frost mage, casting frost spells. I think it was a great addition when they gave each spec their "armor" spell, I think it really brings up their concept.

[Video Games]

I really don't think its gonna make much different, a frost mage isn't gonna cast fireball as part of their rotation, and a fire mage isn't gonna cast arcane blast, but if having them on your spellbook makes you happy, sure, why not.

Now if we are talking about making a mage cast other element spells on their rotation, such as a frost mage casting fire blast, I would be opposed to that, when I play frost mage I really wanna play a frost mage, casting frost spells. I think it was a great addition when they gave each spec their "armor" spell, I think it really brings up their concept.

but even so, fire blast is better dps while moving than ice lance so i'll take the better dps

[Krawu]

Brian Holinka: Mages are masters of the elements

Shamans:

[Elestia]

As an Ele shaman main, I def cringed. But understood what he was getting at.

And yea, seriously mages haven't felt like a mage in terms of combat in a long time. The only thing they got to keep was Frost Nova and Ring of Frost, which are for utility, not true dps.

The current core does feel solid in terms of defensive and some utility (Fire getting ignored). And it makes sense for specs to have unique spec related empowerment.

It's the combat with mages that just isn't there. Great example of a real caster is already in game with the Ele shaman which was built with several schools of magic. Mages went the literal opposite way, instead having the bolts and aoe spells partitioned out.

...

So in general, what might be nice would be combination style play with specs providing a simple benefit to school spells for variation in optimal play that is natural to the mage core. In fewer words: built in synergies. The key would be to have an appropriate foundation through a THREE WAY mastery. --A simple mastery triad common to all three specs in structure but emphasizes a school and defines a spell's interaction in combination with other schools in different ways. This would define: 1.) where the spec school is strong (where the spec's gameplay should be centered. 2.) What synergies are weak or redundant. 3.) Which school harmonizes / enhances.

It could be as simple as:
[Assume Living Bomb and Slow are baseline debuffs]
[Fireblast used to spread LB]
[Assume All specs use Water Elemental (have access to Freeze)]
[All specs have Frost Nova, per usual default kit]

Fire Mage:
Firelord: X% increased crit, X% fire damage
Flame Triumvirate:
Fire Starter: Fire crit chance increased against slowed and incapacitated targets -- Fire still focuses on crits and procs with enhanced procs on debuffed targets
Blast Furnace: Frost effects diminished by Fire effects - Fire spells will break frost roots and chill effects, but not arcane slows
Flame Keeper: Arcane effects unaffected by Fire effects

Frost Mage:
Frost Lich: X% increased haste, X% frost damage
Frost Triumvirate:
Flash Freeze: Frost spell haste increased against burning and incapacitated targets -- Frost can still control with freezes but gains haste when choosing a target to focus damage on via living bomb debuff.
Chillrend: Arcane effects diminished by Frost effects - Arcane slow is redundant with frost chill effects. Fire still deals its damage.
Frostfire: Fire effects unaffected by Frost effects

Arcane Mage:
Arcane Dominator (lol): X% increased versatility, X% arcane damage scaling with mana %
Arcane Triumvirate:
Torment the Weak: Arcane versatility doubled against frozen, incapacitated targets and targets with 35% or less hp - Critical AoE root threat, damage doesn't break frost roots and execute threat.
Dampening: Fire effects diminished by Arcane effects - LB still is efficient DPS but not a major source of damage.
Chill of the Void: Frost effects unaffected by Arcane effects

If this is too same-y maybe a more nuanced but similar system? This is just something I came up with on the fly, and would be a welcome change to mage in my mind.

Also, not that complicated. It's rock paper scissors where one school is always dominant, one is complimentary, one is diminished and all three are always in play. You could even name the Triumvirate passives the same for consistency: Torment of the Weak, Magical Dampening, Magical Enhancement.

[Doffen]

This is what I mean with giving back spells, there is no point if it doesn't give you anything useful. I am an Arcane Mage, I got Slow, instant cast, while frostbolt do some damage, it's weak, got a cast time. Fire Blast? What a joke. I can see that Arcane Explosion got some use for Fire between their dot AoE but also very limited. Why not give us Blizzard and Living Bomb at least? Fire and Frost gets my AE, would be nice with some AoE you can stand further than 10 yards with to cast.

It's early, but for me this look exactiy what I thought it will look like, giving spells back that is going to be used very rarely. Frostbolt and Fire blast will sit nicely in my spellbook. I'm an Arcane Mage, the master of true magic, Arcane. Let me specialize in that. Arcane Blast, Arcane Power, lesser mages can't handle that. All they can handle is either frost or fire, sub-schools of magic. "Your considerable talent is wasted on... Pudding"

They need to do better than this. Maybe they will.

[cocomen2]

If you still didnt get who is Brian Holinka , let me show you funny thing:

WOD class design with Brian Holinka = shitshow
Legion class design without Brian Holinka = not so bad (with artifact weapon and leg.) (pvp teamplates ,trinkets do not work in pvp)
BFA class design with Brian Holinka = shitshow (broken teamplates, TRINKETS WORK IN PVP)

You really had a hope for class design? he loved his work for WOD so much, that reintroduced ASHRAN in BFA.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo.../254657?page=2

[lunethzero]

Holinka:Mages are masters of the elements

Shamans: Am I a joke to you?

[Huggykaze]

Bro, you are going to get 3 spells from the other specs, that you probably will never gonna use, you wont be master of anything.

It's about a class feel. If you don't understand that go play a spreadsheet simulator, you won't see a difference.

[Charge me Doctor]

Or else give them a new core identity. If Paladins get Auras, and Warlocks get curses, and rogues Poisons, then maybe Mages need to be given something to truly reflect their class fantasy.

I'd prefer some buff that functions like a fear ward, but against bad decisions. Make it "empowered arcane common sense", it stops targeted players from doing something nonsensical, like staying in a puddle of DANGER to finish his cast, then wears off

- - - Updated - - -

Not that I mind but encounter design doesnt favor ae and i dont pvp so i dont need frostbolt. I guess giving players agency back is very nice though

At least it'll give me a reason to kick some magi out of frustration for jumping into melee and AEing everything as frost, while spawning crap in melee and eating cleaves.

- - - Updated - - -

Why not give us Blizzard and Living Bomb at least? Fire and Frost gets my AE, would be nice with some AoE you can stand further than 10 yards with to cast.

No living bomb for you, enjoy flamestrike.

[Doffen]

No living bomb for you, enjoy flamestrike.

Fine!

/Arcane4lyfe

[schwarzkopf]

To slow? Something to cast when you're locked from your school?

This, and this.

Or I just want to make the other side think I'm a frost mage

[Schattenlied]

If a Frost mage already has Ice Lance as an instant cast that works with their kit... what use will Fire Blast really have? Is it there just to say "now I cast the orange spell... and now the blue spell... and now the orange spell"? Are they useless for the other specs, but they're there just so people can goof off?

Fire blast will not be a thing you press on cooldown... Like in Wrath, when Mage had both fire blast and ice lance, they did not use fire blast as part of their normal rotation, they used it when they had to move... While running the only other at range spell they could cast was ice lance, and like right now, if the target isn't frozen ice lance hits like a wet noodle, fire blast, on the other hand, hit pretty hard. It entered as part of their rotation while they weren't footplanting, and in fact became their second highest priority cast right behind spending a fingers of frost proc.

[Lodravel]

If you still didnt get who is Brian Holinka , let me show you funny thing:

WOD class design with Brian Holinka = shitshow
Legion class design without Brian Holinka = not so bad (with artifact weapon and leg.) (pvp teamplates ,trinkets do not work in pvp)
BFA class design with Brian Holinka = shitshow (broken teamplates, TRINKETS WORK IN PVP)

You really had a hope for class design? he loved his work for WOD so much, that reintroduced ASHRAN in BFA.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo.../254657?page=2

You're missing a crucial part that doesn't fit in the misleading portrait your trying to paint. Holinka has been involved as far back as MoP.

[Amaterasu65]

Fireblast will be used to quick tag anything from distance. AE was the one spell I truly missed when it was restricted to Arcane, finishing up low hp mobs with it was useful, also good in PvP. Frostbolt will be good in PvP and kiting. These spells offer utility but doubt they are gonna be utilized much in raids.

[cocomen2]

You're missing a crucial part that doesn't fit in the misleading portrait your trying to paint. Holinka has been involved as far back as MoP.

Yeah he was in MOP, but he so smart to completely ruin class design with transition from MOP-> to WOD in one go....... he failed to understand how good was MOP. And now we must to suffer untill he gonna get it "Oh boy why i ruined this all" "Maybe we can go to mop design? nah players will shame me for this , so i would never admit my mistake" "WHO WANTS ASHRAN WITH HOLINKA?" ZA WARUDO

Why with him coming back to team, pvp changes start shitshow as if its HELL on Earth? srsly.

Holinka comes back in BFA - OOOOO LETS make PVE trinkets work in PVP activity!!!! YEAH

Some youtubers say that 2vs2 pvp with good trinkets (only on one team) same as 2vs4....... seems fair.

PvP-only players want pvp gear vendor? NAH THEM, they better farm PVE that they have no interest , anyway you cant PVP without op PVE trinkets now.

Anyone remember resilience stat? Memberberries remember.

[Tarba]

I just hope that fire spells on a frozen enemy will remove all ice debuff and make no damage.