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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Radeghost View Post
    So we learn that Lich King is the guardian of the rifts between two worlds and without him, the sky is basically shattered and the barrier between worlds of life and death is shattered. So, before Kil'jaeden created the Lich King and threw him into Azeroth, there was no barrier between life and death,r ight? So The War of the Ancients looked completely different, with Val'kyr, etc. And why there are no mentions in ingame books about The Happening - like "A meteor just crashed in Northrend and now everything looks completely different! People that died just vanished! Sky looks strange, it's not shattered anymore!"
    Or did they just retcon Lich King whatsoever and Ner'zhul never existed and Lich King was always a being of the Shadowlands?
    Wait, I am still reading up on today lore updates, but did we actually get any confirmation that, quoting you, "Lich King is the guardian of the rifts between two worlds and without him, the sky is basically shattered and the barrier between worlds of life and death is shattered"? Or is that just your own speculation based on what you saw in the cinematic?
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang
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  2. #362
    I am Murloc! Logwyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Death. That is the connection to the Shadowlands. Do you know where Death resides on the cosmic forces of Warcraft? Also the chronicles state that Ner'zhul was passed through death and made a spectral entity. Chronicles page 17.

    "Ner'zhul, his sanity cracking, finally agreed. Kil'jaeden passed the orc's spirit through death and revived him as a spectral entity."

    Does yanking souls back from the shadowlands play into it? Like the Forsaken dying then being pulled back to the living world?

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefall View Post
    Wow you've already been to all the new quest zones, the Maw, and the giant city?
    No, nor have I said so. Calling your attempt at a gotcha weak would be a compliment. That doesn't change the fact there are quests that send the player to the Shadowlands.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I bought all the Chronicles and read them and it was fun reading.

    I do not live in some fantasy world that Chronicle will be some Immutable Holy Warcraft Bible - in the end lore will be expanded and even changed at some point and it's fine. Heck Chronicle itself has a lot of void spots where stuff got little more than "yeah there is that thing" presentation, clearly leaving that for future, something like Elune and Void Lords are all as obscure as ever and yes, Shadowlands too. Heck we barely know anything about "Light" too and what we have seen it doing in Legion and BfA totally got us blindsided.

    I think this is fine and I am not sure what people really expected - the story goes forward and lore will evolve and inevitably some stuff will have to be rewritten because the thing is so huge it is impossible to not step on its own toes at some point.
    What if people expected the Chronicles to be what Blizzard advertised them as? I.e. "a series that attempts to codify, tighten up and clarify the history of Warcraft"? And the bit how it's impossible to introduce new things without stepping on the story's own toes is just an excuse for sloppy writing. If the old story can be changed to fit the new planned stories then the new stories can be just as well rewritten during the drawing board part of the process to fit the old story as well. They are both equally story-ish.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I am a strong proponent of common sense, not a usual thing in these forums. Bite me.

    You want to treat everything ever written in any sort of lore as immutable truth? Boy, you gonna be in for a tough time, no matter whether it's Blizzard or anything else.
    Apparently expecting basic effort in maintaining consistency isn't common sense. Who knew! It's almost as if the whole idea of common sense was a logical fallacy or something. Argument from incredulity to be specific.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Things change and evolve over time. It's same as crying over how Superman was retconned 500 times. The shit just happens because eventually there is so much piles of old crap, that you simply need to toss it aside and start anew or at least to clean up the mess.
    Comic books are well known for being the standard of what other writing is measured by.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    It's like bloody Azeroth was a name of a kingdom in Warcraft 1 and now lo hello it's a bloody Titan. OoooOoOOOOOoooo HOW DARE U BLIZZERD *ravenous screeching*!
    Multiple things having the same name isn't even remotely relevant to the concept of a retcon. Your little gotcha here falls flat on its face.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Blizzard does take its IP lore seriously, claiming otherwise is just pure nonsense. But sometimes they end up writing themselves into a corner or succumbing to some external pressure/constraints that leads to the whole pile of steaming bullshit like WoD and they end up having to amend things.
    The frequency with which they manage to write themselves into a corner truly presents the idea that they take their lore seriously.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    It's like Marvel and such - they end up retconning and changing shit, because eventually they reach that "we gotta do this shit" point. Wanna go cry how they don't care about their IP? That IP is their everything and sometimes changes are inevitable and necessary.
    Except for the part where comic book writing is dominated by rule of cool moments.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  4. #364
    Mechagnome Kemsa's Avatar
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    A lot of people knew that the "Victors wrote history" this is the same, the Titans point of view its the one in Chronicles, probably the book of Chronicles its just the Discs of Norgannon made in real life.

    The Shadowlands are being hinted since Vanilla with Muezala and the old tablet quests. Problem its... people forget about that because the story they wanted to tell us was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond this other ones. Just look at how the trilogy of Pandaria-Draenor-Legion came together. Cataclysm wanted to tell another one with the Dragon Souls and the future of the Leaders of the factions (Baine/sylvannas/Tyrande/Jaina) wich they become major characters on BfA.

    Now with Shadowlands Blizzard its going to expand the lore of every major power in the cosmology. Remember, the expansions was always about " a big threath from the Legion/oldgod/factionwar" until Shadowlands, thats it about a major power source. We could se in the future Yriel and the Inquisitor Light. The Endless void lords. The ravenous power of the Growth or even the shining Arcane take a major roll too.

  5. #365
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Both retcon threads have been merged, since discussion is all dancing around the same topic.
    Moderator of the General Off-Topic, Politics, Lore, and RP Forums
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  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    And it did just that. I read all 3 books, I have them right in my place.

    They certainly clear a lot of stuff up, so I am not even bloody sure what are you bitching about. As for your Azeroth blip, whatever you said is a prime example of a Windmill you are fighting - eventually stuff will get cleared up in this way and it's fine. Just like Elune will somehow end up being a reformed Void Lord or some shit like that or whatever other thing they make up there.

    No need to raise pitchforks over everything. And certainly pretending like Chronicles are end all be all lore - that's just silly, simply because huge parts of Warcraft universe are not even made or well defined yet besides "yeah there is this thing".

    Like they literally said themselves in the panel - yeah there always were Shadowlands and there was some sort of definition there, but what we get in the expansion - a lot of it they had to define from scratch, because all in all - it is a new lore. So yeah, you won't read in Chronicles about "Kyrians" because it simply was not a thing back then.

    Is this a "retcon" or is this some sort of sacrilege rendering Chronicles invalid? No, it's simply an expansion of the universe that will evolve over they years much more and further.
    Given how none of your counterexamples are a retcon and anyone even briefly checking what a retcon is would realize that, you either couldn't have been bothered to even do that, or you're blatantly straw-manning people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  7. #367
    if blizzard would go by the lore they created for warcraft and would stay in those confines, WoW wouldn't even be a thing.

    so why all the hate for "retconning"? blizzard is developing this story and this universe step by step and maybe are even leaving the established stuff behind to break out of azeroth and try something new. nobody could have written ALL the lore prior to warcraft. that means: this lore is a living thing. enjoy the damn ride.
    From Ancient Terra the Emperor commands His Proud Sons.
    From revered Blood-stock these Warriors are made His Proud Sons.
    No fear they shall know as Adeptus Astartes, His Proud Sons.

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by sylenna View Post
    if blizzard would go by the lore they created for warcraft and would stay in those confines, WoW wouldn't even be a thing.

    so why all the hate for "retconning"? blizzard is developing this story and this universe step by step and maybe are even leaving the established stuff behind to break out of azeroth and try something new. nobody could have written ALL the lore prior to warcraft. that means: this lore is a living thing. enjoy the damn ride.
    That's their own damn fault for hyping the spectacle up to 11 over the course of two expansions. Who actually thought we'd be defeating Sargeras and N'zoth back to back like this back in Cataclysm? MoP? Even WoD? They can't pace themselves and so they have to asspull new stuff that doesn't fit and try to hammer it into place disregarding everything it breaks. That's what we call "Bad Writing."

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    the biggest problem for me was the line 'no mortal went to shadowlands'
    That seems like an easy line to fix, because yeah, that is commonplace in canon already. Odyn (kinda mortal?), the death knights to get their horses as well as retrieve certain powerful souls for their rituals, Uuna and the player in A Dark Place, Sylvanas in Edge of Night, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    That seems like an easy line to fix, because yeah, that is commonplace in canon already. Odyn (kinda mortal?), the death knights to get their horses as well as retrieve certain powerful souls for their rituals, Uuna and the player in A Dark Place, Sylvanas in Edge of Night, etc.
    I mean, it is not unheard of in previous lore, but half your examples are bad. Odyn simply peered into the Shadowlands. And Uuna was kinda dead.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    I mean, it is not unheard of in previous lore, but half your examples are bad. Odyn simply peered into the Shadowlands. And Uuna was kinda dead.
    Hell, all those examples outside of Odyn are dead people, thus "no mortal" still holds with those examples.
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    Also, it's should HAVE. NOT "should of". "Should of" doesn't even make sense. If you think you should own a cat, do you say "I should of a cat" or "I should have a cat"? Do you HAVE cats, or do you OF cats?

  12. #372
    Btw, Helm of Domination doesn't have any real power of itself. It can store a concioussness and expand psychic abilities. As stated in Rise of the Lich King I believe. Ner'zhul was into death magic and was powerful nonetheless and the hełm unlocked his full potential.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by luigisp View Post
    We get a hint to the answer to this question in WoWHead's recent interview with the devs regarding Legendaries in Shadowlands:

    We will craft our legendaries in the Forge of Domination - this is the same forge with which Frostmourne was made, and we'll learn exactly how, and by who, it was crafted.
    Given the name of the forge, this most likely extends to the Helm of Domination as well.

    They never did explain exactly how Kil'jaeden and the Nathrezim created the Lich King (especially given how powerful he ended up being). This is Blizzard finally explaining the mechanics behind how the Lich King came into being.

    My educated guess: KJ and the Nathrezim of the Burning Legion struck a deal with one of the death entities in the Shadowlands (specifically the one who oversees the Forge of Domination) to craft the helm and sword.
    But we already know that Nathrezim crafted the Lich King's armor and weapon. Will they retcon it either? Holy fuck that's next level of bullshit

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Changing lore is not the same as expanding lore. As you yourself just said, lore has changed as time progresses.

    When we first saw "Valkyr" in WOTLK they were constructs created by Arthas and not servants of Odin. That was retconned later in Legion. You can claim it was "expanded" lore, but really it was a retcon. The original Valkyr were purely undead servants of Arthas and the Legion with powerful necromantic abillities and nothing hinted they were part of any lore associated with "death" or the "shadowlands" outside of the legion's death magic. Odin and Helya had absolutely nothing to do with the WOTLK Valkyr and the Vyrkul that were turned into Valkyr were purely due to the Lich King's powers. They even had a site named Valkyrion in Northrend as if to say this is where the lore and name Valkyr originated, with the scourge and death magic.

    Basically your "expanding the lore" means they are making it up as they go. Otherwise if all these elements of lore were mapped out in advance long ago, the story would be more consistent. But it isn't and largely lore developments serve gameplay and is created as the game goes on.
    ^This.
    The problem with wow story for... quite some time now is that they don't write ANYTHING with the future in mind, being event or just background lore.
    Look at intro event of BFA, the burning of Teldrasil and the bombing of Undercity, it's painfully obvious that they just wrote thos event because they were """"cool"""" (that's how they see in their mind "shocking twists"). But they didn't FOR A SECOND thought about the repercussion of thos event on the world outside of "it's war now. Warer than before", and they won't update the world to reflect it until the next old world revamp comes up.
    They won't developer what will happen to the NE & UD society, they won't show the logical retake of Gilneas or the inevitable fall of Silvermoon (remember when the only reason the BE joined the horde was because they couldn't afford to have to have their neighbors the forsaken come knocking at their door, when said door was still under siege of the scourge remnants?) now that the Forsaken are gone.
    Hell, the map is still in a Cataclysm state, because Blizzard don't think ahead anymore, instead of writing their story with the "now and then" in mind, they just write the now and leave it on the map for ever, because replacing it with the then once the extension is gone would be too much hasle. The result is a broken disjointed world that is the furthermore thing possible from coherence.

    And it's the same thing with the background lore. They don't seem to EVER think ahead. They don't plant seed that could be exploited later outside of "the story", and that lead them to evolve the world trough retcon because said world was either not build with evolution in mind, or the writer is too stupid and lazy to take existing lore and write logical evolution for it.

    And that problem becomes even more noticeable when blizzard stopped to be creative and just started to recycle old stuff instead of making new one exactly like they did with the Vyrkrul. For some reason they felt the need to bring back a race that had a pretty clear background, and copy pasted it outside of Northrend with the elements linked to the Lich King (like the Vargul and Valkyr), and just quickly retconned thos elements to have them fit in their new narrative, thus making their previous incarnation completely stupid (Apparently now Nerzul was just Hellya bitch and used her toy because... reasons?).

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Radeghost View Post
    Btw, Helm of Domination doesn't have any real power of itself. It can store a concioussness and expand psychic abilities. As stated in Rise of the Lich King I believe. Ner'zhul was into death magic and was powerful nonetheless and the hełm unlocked his full potential.

    But we already know that Nathrezim crafted the Lich King's armor and weapon. Will they retcon it either? Holy fuck that's next level of bullshit
    The Helm contains Lich King's spirit / essence - and said spirit (or essence), in turn, has Lich King's power. In both "Rise of the Lich King" and Chronicle 3, Arthas and Bolvar both gained power of the Lich King after they put the Helm on (for example, quoting Chronicle, "Thus, Arthas embraced the unknown and placed the helm upon his head. The Lich King's power flooded into him"). The Helm by itself might not contain too much power, but the essence inside does.

    Regarding the Nathrezim, we know that they and KJ created Lich King's armor and weapon. That hasn't changed, as far as we know. However, we do not know how they created it. It just turned out that they created it using Shadowlands power and possibly some existing forges and / or artifacts. That isn't really a retcon.
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang
    Donnons le sang de guillotine
    Pour guerir la secheresse de la guillotine
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  15. #375
    Brewmaster Highelf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odinfrost View Post
    Whoops, I was kinda wrong. It was the residue energy FROM that book that was resposible for the portal.
    Did the book build it too? On both sides? And power it up on both sides?
    “I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born.”
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  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by Hell-Nicø View Post
    ^This.
    The problem with wow story for... quite some time now is that they don't write ANYTHING with the future in mind, being event or just background lore.
    Look at intro event of BFA, the burning of Teldrasil and the bombing of Undercity, it's painfully obvious that they just wrote thos event because they were """"cool"""" (that's how they see in their mind "shocking twists"). But they didn't FOR A SECOND thought about the repercussion of thos event on the world outside of "it's war now. Warer than before", and they won't update the world to reflect it until the next old world revamp comes up.
    They won't developer what will happen to the NE & UD society, they won't show the logical retake of Gilneas or the inevitable fall of Silvermoon (remember when the only reason the BE joined the horde was because they couldn't afford to have to have their neighbors the forsaken come knocking at their door, when said door was still under siege of the scourge remnants?) now that the Forsaken are gone.
    Hell, the map is still in a Cataclysm state, because Blizzard don't think ahead anymore, instead of writing their story with the "now and then" in mind, they just write the now and leave it on the map for ever, because replacing it with the then once the extension is gone would be too much hasle. The result is a broken disjointed world that is the furthermore thing possible from coherence.

    And it's the same thing with the background lore. They don't seem to EVER think ahead. They don't plant seed that could be exploited later outside of "the story", and that lead them to evolve the world trough retcon because said world was either not build with evolution in mind, or the writer is too stupid and lazy to take existing lore and write logical evolution for it.

    And that problem becomes even more noticeable when blizzard stopped to be creative and just started to recycle old stuff instead of making new one exactly like they did with the Vyrkrul. For some reason they felt the need to bring back a race that had a pretty clear background, and copy pasted it outside of Northrend with the elements linked to the Lich King (like the Vargul and Valkyr), and just quickly retconned thos elements to have them fit in their new narrative, thus making their previous incarnation completely stupid (Apparently now Nerzul was just Hellya bitch and used her toy because... reasons?).
    I see things like this, and see how dedicated much of the fan base is to lore, to the point where “loremasters” are a thing in some guilds, and then I think...what is Blizzard itself doing? Much of what you and @InfiniteCharger are pointing out can be noted by anybody who devotes the time to it. And in theory, Blizzard devs should have at least one office, or maybe one guy, who gets paid a salary to devote time to lore. They can’t do as good of a job of keeping track of lore as people like you doing it for free?

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihsan997 View Post
    I see things like this, and see how dedicated much of the fan base is to lore, to the point where “loremasters” are a thing in some guilds, and then I think...what is Blizzard itself doing? Much of what you and @InfiniteCharger are pointing out can be noted by anybody who devotes the time to it. And in theory, Blizzard devs should have at least one office, or maybe one guy, who gets paid a salary to devote time to lore. They can’t do as good of a job of keeping track of lore as people like you doing it for free?
    Or they could could make a meme character then go back to snorting coke off the Doomhammer and walking around the office naked accosting people with 'I am the warchief'

    (Seriously though we got monkey pawed hard with Metzen we thought it was bad but we had no idea bout how bad things really were)

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandragon View Post
    We went into the dream in the raid. Show me where, other than an image of Thunderbluff, did that look like Azeroth? There are many places other than what we see in these locations. This part of the shadowlands is like a spirit way station.
    The Emerald Dream is azeroth barely touched by mortal architecture. Sparse night elven and tauren stuff. It's still one landmass, even.

  19. #379
    Legendary! sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    That seems like an easy line to fix, because yeah, that is commonplace in canon already. Odyn (kinda mortal?), the death knights to get their horses as well as retrieve certain powerful souls for their rituals, Uuna and the player in A Dark Place, Sylvanas in Edge of Night, etc.
    they didn't fix the idea of Legion is one and same across all universes just to make WoD Archimonde the same as TBC Acrhimonde, that line is probably why WoD holds the place of worst lore in entire wow history, a spot that BFA is heavy contestant for
    So i bet they won't change it for the rule of 'kool' as usual, like how they made the entire Me'dan story a total mess with how he is 'removed' yet everything happened due to his influence or by him is cannon (try to explain that dreadlord in entire mage campaign without Me'dan role heh), they don't care anymore, and it definitely sounds cooler to say that 'no mortal went before' than 'there is at least 2 who 100% go because u can't retcon that part or else Sylvanas won't get the dagger and become OP and open portal to shadowlands'
    Quote Originally Posted by Biske View Post
    Hell, all those examples outside of Odyn are dead people, thus "no mortal" still holds with those examples.
    DKs are mortals, being undead != immortal, immortals in wow don't die from old age, undead decompose with time until they collapse without constant maintenance, hence why sylvanas did that ritual for her pet Nathanos

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ihsan997 View Post
    I see things like this, and see how dedicated much of the fan base is to lore, to the point where “loremasters” are a thing in some guilds, and then I think...what is Blizzard itself doing? Much of what you and @InfiniteCharger are pointing out can be noted by anybody who devotes the time to it. And in theory, Blizzard devs should have at least one office, or maybe one guy, who gets paid a salary to devote time to lore. They can’t do as good of a job of keeping track of lore as people like you doing it for free?
    they got fired
    i won't be surprised if that is one of biggest reason why most old blizzard employees left
    Blizz used to make games for love of gaming not the paycheck, that's why old games had so much hard work in it, check how the leftover from old times talk about how they made vanilla wow, anyone who had a fun idea implement it, no hold back, do what u love, not what will sell and make money
    now u have Bobby Kodick, the most overpayed CEO who increased his paycheck by 15% in same year that blizz made most profit in its history and fired 10% of their staff, Bobby Kodick infamously said that his only wish is to remove fun from games, a journalist asked him if he has one wish only what it will be, he didn't ask for money, or wealth, or women, or even world domination like a james bond villain, no his biggest wish is to remove fun from games.
    Congratulation i think he finally did it, Bobby Kodick is probably the guy who hates video games the most in video game industry, he works only for paycheck, he cares only for shareholders who most of them probably don't even know blizzard is a gaming company, just want continuous profit and nothing else
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    "There must always be a Lich King" was the rationale for preventing the masterless Scourge from running rampant across the face of Azeroth.
    This is just a headcanon we all accepted. The Scourge was defeated already at that point so it never really made any sense.

    I'm pretty sure Blizzard just thought it sounded cool at the time.
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    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

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