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  1. #521
    Herald of the Titans Aoyi's Avatar
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    I liked the idea behind pathfinder originally, but not its implementation. It made sense for you to experience the game's story as intended, then earn flying after. The after became tied behind more and more stuff just to force you to play longer to earn it.

    I know it's almost taboo to mention other MMOs, but I think FFXIV got this right. In FF, you earn flight by doing the main story for a zone and clicking on "aether points" along the way. In most cases, those little points are right next to the main story destinations, though they did hide a couple in Stormblood. Either way, you got flying usually right when you finished a zone's main story and then moved on. No rep grind. No time-gating. You could earn it right away. I'd really like it if WoW would rethink that too.

    I know it's probably not in WoWs future to be more reasonable with flying. It was just another one of those things that I started to get annoyed with in the game. Flying was fine before pathfinder. You earned it at max level with the exception of Cataclysm. I don't think we'll see it revert that far, but I would love it if they at least got closer to it's original rollout or FF's.

  2. #522
    I am completly fine with pathfinder. If they should make any change however, it would be to remove flying completly in my opinion.
    IronVan the Van of Steel

  3. #523
    The people who argue against Pathfinder simply want flight removed. Period. It will NOT return to a simple per character purchase like it was in BC through MoP. It is time to face that fact. They wanted to remove flight because of what they saw us do in Cataclysm. They watched us fliy everywhere and blitz leveling. Nothing was a challenge because we simply flew over anything in the way, landed at the mob/item we need and then flew back to the quest giver. They actually had to give us quests to actually make us be on the ground for some stretches of land like the Fire Naga in Hyjal. The devs realized that they had created a monster and tried to kill it.

    Problem was the genie was already out of the bottle and will not go back in as was evidenced by #NoFlyNoSub. So Pathfinder was the compromise. Flying would be put behind various content gates. Once we passed through those gates by completing said content, we would be able to fly. Blizzard even added rewards to it like fast ground speed for Part I and rewards like mounts for Part II.

    Could they improve the speed at which it becomes available? Sure. But that is also dependent on how fast we consume content and development timetables.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rendark View Post
    If they changed pathfinder to were all you had to do was unlock loremaster in that zone to fly there i bet 90% of people would be happy with it.
    Except they won't do that. They have already stated why in the past, which was the same answer to why they were forced to give us flying from the get-go in Cataclysm as well as why they had to enable flight in Wintergrasp when the zone was not running the battle. It makes it awkward to be flying in one zone, stray into another, contiguous zone and suddenly not be able to fly and be dismounted. That is also why Tol Barad, Cataclysm's version of Wintergrasp, was on an island without flight period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Cata also had notably less work done in the 80-85 content (due to the 1-60 revamp,) a disjointed leveling experience with zones scattered across the old world, the most linear "guided tour" questing the game has seen and in some zones it was pretty obvious where they decided we would fly from 80 and it could be a crutch to cover rushed zone design.

    Then at the level cap the dailies were pretty much a copy+paste of WotLK's systems and the heroic dungeons (which I enjoyed) were offputting to quite a few people due to the jump in difficulty compared to WotLK.
    No, they gave us flight at the beginning of Cata because they had to. Because the zones were integrated into Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms, it would have been a poor design choice to have you flying in Witnerspring but stray too far into Hyjal and you get dismounted suddenly and such. We complained about it in Wrath because of Wintergrasp and the devs listened and enabled flight in that zone except for when the battle was happening.

    And the daily system in Cata was the same system that was used in all expansions except for Legion and BfA which use the World Quest system which is far superior.

  4. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by Eosia View Post
    No, they gave us flight at the beginning of Cata because they had to. Because the zones were integrated into Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms, it would have been a poor design choice to have you flying in Witnerspring but stray too far into Hyjal and you get dismounted suddenly and such. We complained about it in Wrath because of Wintergrasp and the devs listened and enabled flight in that zone except for when the battle was happening.
    There was discussions ongoing through development as to when players should be allowed to fly - it was a possibility that Azeroth flight would not have been unlocked until a player hit lvl 85 and you can see it in zones like Hyjal where areas were clearly designed to be experienced from the ground, then they seem to give up making sensible paths 'cos they know you can just hop over the cliffs and hills.

    And the daily system in Cata was the same system that was used in all expansions except for Legion and BfA which use the World Quest system which is far superior.
    TBC's world quests were more basic and experimental, MoP went all-in with the rep being needed to get badge gear from dungeons and raids. WotLK and Cata had almost identical reward structures where one faction gave out all the shoulder enchants then you would work on a particular faction for the best head enchant for your role. I do agree with you about the Legion+BfA world quest system being much better than the old dailies, though personally I was a bigger fan of the Apexis-zone style content, especially when it was expanded out and given a decent reward structure in Tanaan.

  5. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    As title suggests. Personally: I have a certain love-hate for pathfinder. I love having some challenge to fly, but i hate having too much time to wait until i have it. Would you like for blizzard for example, change pathfinder in a way that wouldn't take a whole grind rep but instead, just quest chains, that you can complete anytime you want and once that pathfinder part 1 is done, pathfinder 2 would then give you a rep to grind? Or the opposite, or just remove PART 2? What are your thoughts?

    Edit 05/11: The hate part for it, it's about how long Pathfinder PART II takes to come out. Just want to clarify this for someone that reads this the first time.
    The love part is that i actually like having challenge to unlock flying. It's a satisfaction sensation that you get.

    Also, forgot to add a poll. but still type about it. thanks.

    Edit 06/11: After some hours of answers and discussions, the majority of people on this forum and this thread, would like for pathfinder part 2 to come sooner and for pathfinder to be required while you're leveling and doing quests and explore the whole zones/Loremaster linked to it exclusively without a timegated part 2.
    -As for pvp related systems, i think and one just more person that there could be some area restrictions on flying, if it's considered a battlefield. Where you get instantly dismounted. It can either be a full zone, or just a place. I gave the example of Wintergrasp,
    -Northrend is a flying continent yet, once you fly over wintergrasp, you get dismounted. More like this could be added to the game and new expansions.

    Edit 12/11
    : I'm starting to think that enabling flying by zones is better than pathfinder.
    -Every zone could have quest-chains and rep to enable flying when hit exalted and done those storylines, then you would unlock an achievement for doing the story + flying in the zone.

    Requirements:
    - Achievement required for flying: Quests achievement/Loremaster; Reputation Achievement; Story achievement. Exploration Achievement.
    Reward: Flying in the zone X.

    -This would also give you the possibility of choosing/select where you want to pass more time and where you would want to have flying and choose what reps you would prefer to grind first than others, and also at the same time, some zones, can just be no flying allowed. More like, timeless isle, for example. Or Isle of Thunder.
    - With this, it would make you work for it for god knows how long and entertain you at the same time, without time-gating. Instead you have the option to want or not flying in the zone. For shadowlands this would be good too since you're going to have covenants and 4 major zones (Bastion, Ardenweald, Revendreth, Maldraxxus). Let's say you will choose Maldraxxus and want flying there the most, then you unlock everything there is in there, and are free to even fly there.)

    In Shadowlands as it's a new completely world, you could have a certain "Shadowlands explorer" Title.

    Something like "Explorer/Seeker of the beyond", or "Loremaster: Realm of Shadows/Between Worlds".
    Dude... make a poll for f sake

  6. #526
    Quote Originally Posted by Eosia View Post
    Except they won't do that. They have already stated why in the past, which was the same answer to why they were forced to give us flying from the get-go in Cataclysm as well as why they had to enable flight in Wintergrasp when the zone was not running the battle. It makes it awkward to be flying in one zone, stray into another, contiguous zone and suddenly not be able to fly and be dismounted. That is also why Tol Barad, Cataclysm's version of Wintergrasp, was on an island without flight period.
    Except with Shadowlands they aren't going to be restricted to contiguous zones which are all geologically connected. They've got a fantastical, non-normal setting to create zones which don't have to follow the normal expectations of a "real" world. It's entirely possible each zone in the Shadowlands is not connected in any way to any others. This actually makes more sense, given that each Covenant area follows a drastically different theme.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by OneWay View Post
    What is toxic about that everyone should do equal or approximately same work as everyone else did? It's only fair and not "toxic".
    It's not toxic. But it's also not fair.

    What you need to remember is that each achievement, barrier, or challenge in WoW has a context of the difficulty it represents within the patch it was intended to be played under. While an expansion is current, it makes perfect sense to expect each person to have to face the same challenges, and do the same work. But when an expansion or patch is NOT current, all that goes out the window. It's the reason we have catch-up mechanics.

    Expecting someone to have to put in the same amount of grind that you did, but in an expansion that literally no longer matters, isn't toxic. But it is kind of an unrealistic expectation.

  7. #527
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    There was discussions ongoing through development as to when players should be allowed to fly - it was a possibility that Azeroth flight would not have been unlocked until a player hit lvl 85 and you can see it in zones like Hyjal where areas were clearly designed to be experienced from the ground, then they seem to give up making sensible paths 'cos they know you can just hop over the cliffs and hills.
    They did consider it, but then they decided not to because it did make absolutely no sense to be able to fly in one zone but not the zone next to it. There is nothing unique about Hyjal, Uldum, or Twilight Highlands that would make flying impossible.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    TBC's world quests were more basic and experimental, MoP went all-in with the rep being needed to get badge gear from dungeons and raids. WotLK and Cata had almost identical reward structures where one faction gave out all the shoulder enchants then you would work on a particular faction for the best head enchant for your role. I do agree with you about the Legion+BfA world quest system being much better than the old dailies, though personally I was a bigger fan of the Apexis-zone style content, especially when it was expanded out and given a decent reward structure in Tanaan.
    But they are still the same system. Got to an area, get a quest, complete it, turn it in, get something. Then do it the next day. Wash, Rinse, Repeat. The rewards and such may have changed, but that's a different issue.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Except with Shadowlands they aren't going to be restricted to contiguous zones which are all geologically connected. They've got a fantastical, non-normal setting to create zones which don't have to follow the normal expectations of a "real" world. It's entirely possible each zone in the Shadowlands is not connected in any way to any others. This actually makes more sense, given that each Covenant area follows a drastically different theme.
    But that is for this expansion only. So they are not going change it for one expansion and then revert back. It is time to face facts, it's Pathinder or no flight at all. Which do you want? And no, you do not get to make a third option.

  8. #528
    Epic! bloodwulf's Avatar
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    Personally, i must be an outlier, because i have never struggled to get Flying in a pathfinder locked expansion, and never felt particularly held back by the lack of it. Hell, i miss my ground mounts after getting flying. BFA was personally an easier than ever Pathfinder in my opinion, i really did no extra work than what i was already doing, and i unlocked. That and the one zone where flying felt most useful, Mechagon, gave you an alternative really early into the questing.
    We live in an era of "me versus them", an era where something is done that you don't like means you are persoonally attacked. People whine too much.
    Let us play video games and be happy.

  9. #529
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Dude... make a poll for f sake
    I said I can't make a poll you need to select to make a poll before posting the thread and then add options and I forgot

  10. #530
    Just remove pathfinder and flying, problem solved and world looks instantly better and bigger.

  11. #531
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    Frankly, i would like flying removed from new zones completely. Nothing i hate more than having a horde i was ganking flying away from me. This is why i spend most of my time in timeless isle where flying is forbidden.
    If they flew away, they'd got out of combat, so your ganking wasn't going so well anyway. Unless you actually mean 'baby-seal clubbing'.

  12. #532
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    Who you think you are to tell Legion is the worse expansion? I'm sorry but you have been saying so much bad stuff that i can't take you seriously anymore.
    Saying Legion was the worse, when i barely see someone agreeing or anywhere saying that, just because it's what you think, opinions apart, to tell why flying is bad, you can give your reasons but once you say an expansion is the worse because of flying, i can't take you seriously.
    Not trying to be rude or anything but the reason i got salty about this is: You are anti-flying, that's all i'm seeing here, and if you are so anti-flying this is not the place for you cause you're not going to keep quoting everyone with the same answers right? I don't think that's necessary. If you are going to find a way to always dismiss and implicate with everyone's personal choices that doesn't include thinking flying is bad and that legion is the worse expansion, it's better for you to unfollow my thread.
    I'm pretty sure I'm just me telling my opinion regarding the expansion and explaining why I think that. Like if you get mad over that then there's seriously something wrong with you.

    I'm here answering to the topic which still is "How many of you would like to see pathfinder removed or changed?", I happen to be on the side of removal of it - you just didn't think it could mean also removal of flight all together. I'm also explaining what I've said in the replies to you and others like you, only thing I've really gotten back is "OK BOOMER" and such comments or your "I can't take you seriously because you have an opinion I don't share, so I can't take any facts you said seriously either - but I can't ever argue those facts either."

    Like if you want an echo chamber to your opinions, then go ahead and create one solo - don't come to forums asking other peoples opinions (some of which are actually based on facts) if you can't handle them.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    The reason you seem to think you're arguments are so good is because you're arguing against something I'm not advocating.

    Show me where I've been in favor of "flying over every obstacle". The only time I've said anything to that effect has ALWAYS been in the context of flight being the better option ONLY because it lets you bypass shallow content that you've already done.

    I've been very clear that my personal preference is to have flight included in the design from the beginning, with appropriate challenges, balance, and barriers!

    Everything else is a derivative based on the context of what would be tolerable assuming we literally can not dispense with Pathfinder.

    You are pointing out flaws with a weak design decision of just slapping flight into a world not designed for it. Something I am absolutely against!
    The arguments are good because they counter yours, it really is that simple. Oh and you just showed yourself where you've been in favor of flying over every obstacle so there's that too.

    If Blizzard were to introduce flying, as an option to ground mounts by having those appropriate challenges, balance and barriers then we'd literally have completely different flying - starting from the speed. And if that was the case, then you'd have no problem with current ground mounts as they would be balanced in terms of efficiency. People already hated when flying had obstacles the minute it was released, and the people you agree with here would go completely nuts if this was actually a thing.

    However you've always been arguing that pathfinder is bad and flying should be in the get-go, or at least instantly available via pathfinder part1 - which doesn't fit the narrative of "I want proper flying".

    Quote Originally Posted by Destronoma View Post
    You enjoy being slowed to a crawl and having to stop whatever it is you're doing to one-shot whatever dazed you?

    Yikes.
    I enjoy a game world that I'm actually partaking in, rather than just flying over it all - that includes difficulties of choosing proper path not to get dazed, or killing mobs that do daze when I fail pathing.

  13. #533
    Quote Originally Posted by Eosia View Post
    But that is for this expansion only. So they are not going change it for one expansion and then revert back. It is time to face facts, it's Pathinder or no flight at all. Which do you want? And no, you do not get to make a third option.
    Given all the noise Blizzard is making about player agency and returning skills and abilities via the "Great Un-Pruning", I could absolutely see them trying a new system where flying is unlocked on a zone-by-zone basis, if only to see how it's received by the playerbase. After all, isn't this the reasoning they used to try and remove flight in WoD? That they wanted to see how players would react to a world without flight?

    And besides, who's to say the next expansion won't likewise be unconstrained by having to have contiguous land masses? If we're going to the Void, or some other similarly fantastical locale, they could easily maintain the "new" pathfinder.

  14. #534
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    It's not toxic. But it's also not fair.

    What you need to remember is that each achievement, barrier, or challenge in WoW has a context of the difficulty it represents within the patch it was intended to be played under. While an expansion is current, it makes perfect sense to expect each person to have to face the same challenges, and do the same work. But when an expansion or patch is NOT current, all that goes out the window. It's the reason we have catch-up mechanics.

    Expecting someone to have to put in the same amount of grind that you did, but in an expansion that literally no longer matters, isn't toxic. But it is kind of an unrealistic expectation.
    And when expansion "goes out the window" people don't get the stuff for free but they don't face the same challenges either because of new gear and levels.

    So we have a catch-up system for it, people get to grind it faster and easier per day basis. Also if that expansion no longer matters then they don't actually need the flying there either, but if they decide to level up in that content then that content does actually matter.

    So, its not toxic but it is fair.

  15. #535
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    The arguments are good because they counter yours, it really is that simple. Oh and you just showed yourself where you've been in favor of flying over every obstacle so there's that too.
    Christ.... I literally just explained how that's not what I'm in favor of. Taking something out of context doesn't mean you're making a good point.

    How are you misreading this? Is this Ion's secret account? Do you also think literal boos are actually cheers?

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    If Blizzard were to introduce flying, as an option to ground mounts by having those appropriate challenges, balance and barriers then we'd literally have completely different flying - starting from the speed. And if that was the case, then you'd have no problem with current ground mounts as they would be balanced in terms of efficiency. People already hated when flying had obstacles the minute it was released, and the people you agree with here would go completely nuts if this was actually a thing.

    However you've always been arguing that pathfinder is bad and flying should be in the get-go, or at least instantly available via pathfinder part1 - which doesn't fit the narrative of "I want proper flying".
    Deliberately misrepresenting my points, then pointing to that misrepresentation as false, is called a Straw Man argument. Google it. The problem you're having is that you're trying too hard to oversimplify the argument, and then arguing against made up situations which I do not make. That doesn't mean you're making good arguments. It just means you're talking to yourself.


    If Blizzard re-introduced flying as an option on par with ground mounts, then likewise there would have to be content which was appropriate for both. In some situations the ground mount would be the better choice. In other situations the flying mount would be good. How are you the sole arbiter of how people would respond to balanced access and use of flying mounts? Maybe a lot of people would be interested in trying an open world where flight was available right away in some situations, and was actually balanced in both speed and challenges.

    I don't even know why I try. It's like arguing with a bot.

  16. #536
    I personally don't mind the first stage of PF too much, it's the second stage I get annoyed with. If they just made it one stage and we can get it from the launch that'd be nice.

  17. #537
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Christ.... I literally just explained how that's not what I'm in favor of. Taking something out of context doesn't mean you're making a good point.

    How are you misreading this? Is this Ion's secret account? Do you also think literal boos are actually cheers?
    You yourself literally gave an example already, it doesn't matter if you have a preference over harder flying if you say that you prefer flying (with current flying) over every obstacle.

    And then the only counter to any point you have is "are you Ion secret account lolololol".
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Deliberately misrepresenting my points, then pointing to that misrepresentation as false, is called a Straw Man argument. Google it. The problem you're having is that you're trying too hard to oversimplify the argument, and then arguing against made up situations which I do not make. That doesn't mean you're making good arguments. It just means you're talking to yourself.


    If Blizzard re-introduced flying as an option on par with ground mounts, then likewise there would have to be content which was appropriate for both. In some situations the ground mount would be the better choice. In other situations the flying mount would be good. How are you the sole arbiter of how people would respond to balanced access and use of flying mounts? Maybe a lot of people would be interested in trying an open world where flight was available right away in some situations, and was actually balanced in both speed and challenges.

    I don't even know why I try. It's like arguing with a bot.
    There is no strawmans here, theres also no made up situations. We had Blizzard try flying with obstacles and people hated those obstacles, then years later after removing those obstacles they re-introduced (accidentally or not) couple and people hated those too. And this was while flying was still superior choice by standards like speed.
    People literally want flying because its faster, more convenient option. It has been shown time and time again and you really can't argue against it no matter how much you personally dislike that fact.

    But yeah, go ahead and use your only "argument" of me being a bot. That really is all you can do and have done for years.

  18. #538
    think whatever you want about it, its not going to go away.

  19. #539
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    I'm pretty sure I'm just me telling my opinion regarding the expansion and explaining why I think that. Like if you get mad over that then there's seriously something wrong with you.

    I'm here answering to the topic which still is "How many of you would like to see pathfinder removed or changed?", I happen to be on the side of removal of it - you just didn't think it could mean also removal of flight all together. I'm also explaining what I've said in the replies to you and others like you, only thing I've really gotten back is "OK BOOMER" and such comments or your "I can't take you seriously because you have an opinion I don't share, so I can't take any facts you said seriously either - but I can't ever argue those facts either."

    Like if you want an echo chamber to your opinions, then go ahead and create one solo - don't come to forums asking other peoples opinions (some of which are actually based on facts) if you can't handle them.



    The arguments are good because they counter yours, it really is that simple. Oh and you just showed yourself where you've been in favor of flying over every obstacle so there's that too.

    If Blizzard were to introduce flying, as an option to ground mounts by having those appropriate challenges, balance and barriers then we'd literally have completely different flying - starting from the speed. And if that was the case, then you'd have no problem with current ground mounts as they would be balanced in terms of efficiency. People already hated when flying had obstacles the minute it was released, and the people you agree with here would go completely nuts if this was actually a thing.

    However you've always been arguing that pathfinder is bad and flying should be in the get-go, or at least instantly available via pathfinder part1 - which doesn't fit the narrative of "I want proper flying".



    I enjoy a game world that I'm actually partaking in, rather than just flying over it all - that includes difficulties of choosing proper path not to get dazed, or killing mobs that do daze when I fail pathing.
    I handle things just fine when people are polite and making comments with a grain assault like "I'm saying what is best for the game" "legion was the worse expansion" the topic ain't about how good the expansions are and certainly I see you disregarding everyones flavor on the matter because you did an affirmation that only you know what is best for the game and that is without it.
    I don't like to argue for the sake of it and I hate having to deal with stuff like that. Hate is a strong word but I use it when I actually can't take it. You didn't really talk about pathfinder you talked about removing it which is fine if you think that way and you're not alone on that either. By now we already know there's people against it and flavours having it. But they don't really say it's because it's the best for the game. As I think also that most of in game problems it's blizzards problem and most of the content not being so engaging as it could be.
    As I said before yes I have generalized anxiety and it messes alot with my social interaction but I can be a normal person jus like everyone else. The only thing about this is that I stress over topics when it's absolutely unnecessary because we can just start an argument as "I think it's best for the game not having flying" instead of "the difference is that I'm saying what is the best for the game". If you remove flying you'll see regardless that the systems and leveling and everything else won't change. We are even talking here about that. Like we do all stories we have our leveling experience and when flying gets out you notice that you already did that content without it for a year. And BFA for example was a expansion that regardless of flying or not the people weren't actually happy with the rest. As I said flying is not a problem for the game because you already pass this whole time without it. If you were in flavor of flying as me and didn't enjoy timegating you would probably as well asking a different option to unlock it.

  20. #540
    Pathfinder should only require Explorer and Loremaster achievement to unlock it.

    It should be available right at the expansion's launch (8.0), not time gated behind several patches (8.1, 8.2, etc.)

    This is the only acceptable Pathfinder. If not, it shall be removed completely.

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